IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #66

[MsFacetious]

The discussion a few posts back was that no one could find the link. Ok. Continue on with a theory you can provide no proof of. If no one can provide a simple link, then obviously there is no foundation to the theory.

I give up. I would just say to new folks, no one on any thread that I have read has provided any proof of there being an actual connection between these murders and a meth lab. And I truly have looked and can't find anything to support this. I looked hard.

Yahoo search: delphi search warrant meth lab arrest

http://fox59.com/2017/08/04/delphi-tip-line-leads-to-dozens-of-unrelated-arrests/

Investigators with Indiana State Police said this isn't the first time they've solved unrelated cases thanks to tips on the Delphi line. In fact, they've solved between 20-25 separate cases.

"When we go interview them, we go to their house. They’ve got stolen articles in their house or they’ve got, unfortunately, we’ve found meth labs in homes. We’ve found drugs laying on tables. Warrants have been served, because when we go to do the background on that person, we find that persons wanted on another case," said ISP Sgt. Kim Riley.

 

[MsFacetious]

I have always leaned towards a random predator, lurking, and that the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now my mind is playing tricks on me, and I wonder if this was some sort of revenge killing for any dealings someone close to the girls might have had in the past, moo.

How often have we seen such a scenario in other cases here? I can't recall an example off the top of my head.

There have been a couple of abductions who's names escape me.
The most recent and tragic was Shavon Randle.
She was abducted, held for ransom and murdered due to a drug debt.
Owed by a cousin's boyfriend I believe. Not even a CLOSE relative.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...on-Randle-13-Lancaster-28-June-2017-*Arrests*

There have been a couple cases where multiple people were murdered for a drug debt.
I just don't recall any other children.

 

[deedee21]

The flyers have pictures of Abby, Libby, BG, and a composite of BG. Flyers have to go out to high traffic areas. Starting with facebook.
For example, 7-eleven, Burger King, gas stations, big box stores, high schools, colleges, ect. have face book. Forward the pictures if you have facebook. Its a starting point.
It would be good if the main offices distribute pictures to their individual locations. Its high traffic locations. Just a thought.
Something has to break.

 

[Blue Skies]

I did look up burglaries in the area, and I didn't find much for that neighborhood. So the possibility that this is why the killer was there, is remote.

The two aspects of this crime that stand out for me are: Why that trail? Why was the killer even there? And how was it that he didn't seem to be all that concerned about trespassing on private property?

So I'm just looking at what would have brought a person like him, to that particular spot. And why does he seem to be so comfortable in that location?

I've lived in rural areas in Texas and Mass. And it was generally understood that you don't trespass, because some property owners shoot first and ask questions later. In a stand-your-ground state, a property owner has even more license to come after a trespasser. It's odd to me that this guy not only commits this brazen act in daylight, on a trail that does get some traffic, and at time of year where it would be hard to "hide"--the sparseness of the trees doesn't allow for much coverage---but he also ventures onto private property, and commits murder on private property.

If he's unfamiliar with the area, he would have no idea who was home, or how often they patrolled or simply enjoyed their own land.

If the killer had been trespassing earlier, he might have a sense of the habits of the property owners. Or maybe he'd been on the property enough that he just figured his chances were good, that he wouldn't get caught.

Or, he was really lucky.

I'm surprised by choices this killer made, and am just trying to see if there might be an answer that makes sense, that might then point in some way, to who this guy is.

With the Amherst Trail killer, he was a jogger. He used the trails he stalked his victims on. I do think sometimes that location of a crime, can actually reveal something about the person who chooses a specific location for their crime. And the Monon High Bridge trail, feels very specific.

Delphi is off the beaten path. I don't know that it attracts much tourism. The Monon High Bridge trail may be known more to locals--so how did this killer happen on it? And if he's somewhat local, why hasn't he been recognized by now?

Why that trail?

So basically, you are just speculating about the possibility of burglary being involved, just as others were merely speculating about drugs being involved? Interesting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ozazure]

Sure. But the question remains: How could BG know that would be the case with any kind of certainty? Fight, Flight, or Freeze is a sub-second decision process. Their isn't much deliberate thinking allowed by the brain when such situations arise.

All of these would have been what could have occurred: both girls freeze, both girls run, both girls fight, one girl freezes one girl runs, one girl freezes one girl fights, one girl runs one girl fights. Only 2 of those 6 work in BGs favor - both freeze, one fights one freezes - and only 1 optimally - both freeze. So, in the best case he had a 33% chance of success at the start of the crime and 16% as his second best chance of success. And it isn't really 33% because it much depends on if the one choosing to fight presents the opportunity for the one that freezes to choose to fight or flee as time goes on.

We know what did occur and we know that LE and the family said they would not leave each other. But BG would only be guessing that would be the case.

He doesn't need certainty to act. We all act on basic assumptions and likelihoods every day. We drive to work at a set time only allowing for moderate traffic, not catastrophic. We go shopping for a party dress knowing we might not be successful that day, but we have bought our formal shoes and our budgeted money to try stuff on. We do high stakes stuff like ask people for dates, go to interviews or pitch a sale and prepare without being able to control the outcome.

It's not the perfect crime until it's committed. Imagine another walker came into the distance and the girls bolted towards them in unison. BG runs away. They are then looking for an attempted abductor not a double murderer. It could have gone like that. Maybe it has before.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I totally agree that the Delphi murders are unlikely to be a drug hit/revenge.

OT but in reference to your statement about the Weleetka murders above; the man who pled guilty stated that he killed them because he saw them on the road and thought they were "monsters." That's his version. Prosecutors thought there was a revenge motive and planned to use it in their case against him, then he pled guilty. See this article: http://m.newsok.com/article/5117755

However, that crime also had a sexual component. Prosectors thought the girl who was thought to be the focus of the revenge had been deliberately disrobed, shot in the groin, and redressed by the killer. So it was a complex puzzle, much like the Delphi case. Different motivations...drug abuse, anger, sexual assault were all likely at play. Might be the case in Delphi too.

(Yemelyan, you are exactly right on this. I have followed that case too. The murderer's brother had died from drugs sold by a relative of one of the victims. Also, there is speculation in that case about an accomplice. )

 

[her]

MOO:

BG saw the two girls being dropped off, followed them, and killed them. Simple as that.

I don't think he's some mastermind, I don't think he's a serial killer, and I don't think he woke up that day knowing he was going to do what he did. I think he was just some piece of garbage that saw an opportunity and took it.

I do lean towards random chance our girls were picked and murdered by a stranger, however I feel he was on the prowl. It may also be why it's so hard to find him as I understand stranger/random killers are the toughest.

 

[monkeypants]

Yahoo search: delphi search warrant meth lab arrest

http://fox59.com/2017/08/04/delphi-tip-line-leads-to-dozens-of-unrelated-arrests/

Investigators with Indiana State Police said this isn't the first time they've solved unrelated cases thanks to tips on the Delphi line. In fact, they've solved between 20-25 separate cases.

"When we go interview them, we go to their house. They’ve got stolen articles in their house or they’ve got, unfortunately, we’ve found meth labs in homes. We’ve found drugs laying on tables. Warrants have been served, because when we go to do the background on that person, we find that persons wanted on another case," said ISP Sgt. Kim Riley.

Imo residents have smartly taken advantage of the tip line to do some community clean up.

It appears to be the silver lining of one of the most horrendous tragedies imaginable.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

The flyers have pictures of Abby, Libby, BG, and a composite of BG. Flyers have to go out to high traffic areas. Starting with facebook.
For example, 7-eleven, Burger King, gas stations, big box stores, high schools, colleges, ect. have face book. Forward the pictures if you have facebook. Its a starting point.
It would be good if the main offices distribute pictures to their individual locations. Its high traffic locations. Just a thought.
Something has to break.

I have been to a few businesses that have only put the new sketch up.They have failed to add the description along with the sketch.I think that's a mistake.

 

[littlemo2015]

Hi everyone, i apologise if any of this as been stated or covered at all on other threads as i cam in late on this case and there were already 60 threads at the time and i kept reading on the wrong one each day i logged in and couldn’t keep up or catch up properly .

<modsnip>

ok so my second topic of conversation is that i think maybe the familys of Libby and Abby and the family&#8217;s of lyric and Elizabeth (lyric and Elizabeth went missing together and were found dead together in Iowa 5 years ago and its a murder case like Abby and Libbys) if the family's were to correspond with each other maybe they can help each other through something so dark and painful , just a thought on my part

<modsnip>

thanks for listening/reading

 

[ImnoSherlock]

Very interesting reading from start to finish.Properties along deer creek including maps and descriptions of outbuildings.The cemetery and who is buried there.Looks like this was made in 2002.I wonder how much has changed. Mears and Logan info included as well. http://npgallery.nps.gov/pdfhost/docs/NRHP/Text/02001557.pdf

 

[littlemo2015]

i apologise to the mods for posting about something i shouldn&#8217;t have , i didn&#8217;t know i wasn&#8217;t aloud to, i was trying to reach out for help in a more easier way then reading as headaches have gotten worse for me lately and ive struggled badly to catch up, i hope some one can help me out .

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Not sure but the pike county (multiple family) murders in oh this year may have been some kind of revenge killings. JMO

The problem with that though those are only unfounded theories at this point just like other theories that were unsupported by actual evidence in so many other cases before the suspect/s were even found and arrested. In several cases the motive wasn't as the majority saw it nor was the suspect who the majority believed it was.

No one really knows what any motive may have been of any murderer/s until, and if the police uncover the evidence needed that may give a glimpse as to the motive in any case. Until the Pike County mass murders are solved with the suspect/s arrested the true motive will remain unknown. In the end, it may have nothing to do with revenge at all or drugs as some believe.

I believe the motive for murdering both of these two young girls was to sexually assault one or both and then leave no living witnesses behind to tell anyone what had happened to them.

However, that is only my opinion and speculation on my part based on past cases with similar circumstances. Plus studies I have read over the years concerning young children/teens who were abducted or held against their will, and later found murdered. The majority (44%) who did these kind of crimes in the studies were strangers to the victim/s and the overriding majority motive for doing so was an intent to sexually assault the victim/s.

But of course I could be wrong on the motive speculation since I don't have any irrefutable evidence to back any of it up at this time.... even though I am sure the investigators do know if this was sexual assault motivated. In this case we don't even know how the girls were killed but we do know he left DNA.

JMO though

 

[ezrah]

i apologise to the mods for posting about something i shouldn’t have , i didn’t know i wasn’t aloud to, i was trying to reach out for help in a more easier way then reading as headaches have gotten worse for me lately and ive struggled badly to catch up, i hope some one can help me out .

If you go up to the media thread and listen to any news reports linked up there you will probably be as up to date as anyone else here The last interview by Alexis McAdams w LE is the newest info we have. Most of the posts of late have been presenting theories of what might have happened.

 

[deedee21]

I have been to a few businesses that have only put the new sketch up.They have failed to add the description along with the sketch.I think that's a mistake.

LE asked for the picture and composite be side by side.

 

[margarita25]

There is a difference between evidence and inference.

Also, "evidence" is just information. It can be physical or otherwise, but information has to be made sense of and turned into something that supports a narrative, or defends against a narrative -- he did it because , he didn't do it because. Sometimes the same thing can be used to support varying narratives, depending upon how it is interpreted.

Also, since information can be partial, wrong, or manipulated (willfully misrepresented), testing the evidence is a useful premise to retain if you have the ability to validate or ask questions of the original documents / physical evidence.

Logic chains also are useful to test speculation or ideas. If someone asserts something, thinking through to the next element is useful. If X (whatever X is), then Y and Z should follow. When the following necessary element (Y) is missing, it is time to re-evaluate the original assertion or understanding (rethink what X is).

Interesting, I came across this type of logic twice yesterday after reading your post.

The first was<modsnip>

The second was last night while reskimming through Steve Thomas' book, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation." (Of course I've read Kolar's book as well.)

From page 219:

"Lou Smit was certain another photo showed a footprint at the bottom of the window well. We would later clear away the leaves and debris and take new, detailed photographs. The "footprint" was a blemish in the concrete.

Their theories were based on an improbable series of "whatifs". If "this" happened, then it might be possible for "that" to happen, and therefore something else "might" have occurred that could "possibly" explain away some incriminating evidence, and there you had it!---an intruder creeping around with murder on his mind."

 

[No it's not]

Very hard to determine motive without knowing COD or the intricate circumstances of attack leading to the murders, or how the girls and the CS was/ were left.

Having said that, I am not a local and I see a very beautiful part of land. I see a neat tight knit community with hard working down to earth people.

Most of all I see a lot of history, historical buildings throughout the trails and beyond. Even the name "Delphi" ("Womb") being synonymous with the ancient Greek sanctuary and location of the oracle, which was consulted throughout history about important decisions to be made.
The "oracle" is integrated in Libby's and Abby's Middle School and High School sports teams and logos.

I am wondering, if it is possible, that the murderer was creating his own "historical marker"..?

In other words, if it turns out, that the girls had been S assaulted, then I can see that as the motive for the crime, even if I considered the time spent with the girls as very short. If it turns out however, that there was no S assault, then either the MO or the signature or both would compensate for the lack of actual S acts and thus fulfill the killers psychological need, or - the motive is completely different. Then I would take into consideration, what I previously said about the historical marker. Not far fetched in my view.

All IMO

-Nin

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Hello, all! Long time lurker, first time poster here, so please excuse any formatting or content errors!

I have followed this tragic case since day 1, and I frequently search for updates and new information. Based on everything I've seen and heard, I wanted to share my two cents about some aspects of the case & BG:

* From the start, I have felt BG is a transient or someone with a job that permits or even requires them to travel (e.g., a semi-truck driver). I have a feeling that Delphi is an area somewhat familiar to BG, but that he is not a local. Perhaps he lived there briefly many years ago, or he has passed through a number of times due to work, etc. Videos I have seen on YouTube seem to depict the Monon Trails as being difficult to access/know about unless you really knew where you were going.
* I believe BG has offended before. This was a brazen attack in broad daylight on not one, but two individuals. I do not believe a first-time murderer would attack more than one person, especially during the daytime in an uncontrollable environment (i.e., they weren't in a small, isolated building; anyone could have potentially come across the attack at any time).
* I do NOT believe Abby or Libby was known to BG or vice-versa prior to their encounter on Feb. 13.
* I believe BG had gone out already planning on attacking a victim, but was either: 1. Looking for a victim around 18-30 or 2. Was looking for a victim of any age.
To clarify: Assuming this was a crime of opportunity/he did not know Abby or Libby prior, what were the odds that on a Monday, during the early afternoon, that two junior-high age girls would be there? I feel that he might have expected to come across a young woman who was perhaps off-work at the time and decided to head to the trails (the 18-30 y.o. age range I mentioned), or a woman of any age - but NOT children. I hope LE is looking into similar crimes that have occurred involving victims much older than Abby & Libby.
* I believe BG's motive was (sickeningly and tragically) sexual in nature. I doubt anyone would think a young teenager would have much to offer if they were being robbed (e.g., for substantial cash or credit cards).

So, in summary: I believe BG is a transient or someone who travels for work (e.g., trucker), and is somewhat familiar with Delphi/the trails, but is not a local. I believe he has offended before, but did not know Abby or Libby prior. I believe he went out that day with the intention of targeting/sexually assaulting/killing a victim, but probably not girls who were as young as Abby & Libby.

I apologize if this rambled longer than the average post! God bless to all and I pray we bring these courageous young girls and their loved ones justice.

 

[Yemelyan]

The problem with that though those are only unfounded theories at this point just like other theories that were unsupported by actual evidence in so many other cases before the suspect/s were even found and arrested. In several cases the motive wasn't as the majority saw it nor was the suspect who the majority believed it was.

No one really knows what any motive may have been of any murderer/s until, and if the police uncover the evidence needed that may give a glimpse as to the motive in any case. Until the Pike County mass murders are solved with the suspect/s arrested the true motive will remain unknown. In the end, it may have nothing to do with revenge at all or drugs as some believe.

I believe the motive for murdering both of these two young girls was to sexually assault one or both and then leave no living witnesses behind to tell anyone what had happened to them.

However, that is only my opinion and speculation on my part based on past cases with similar circumstances. Plus studies I have read over the years concerning young children/teens who were abducted or held against their will, and later found murdered. The majority (44%) who did these kind of crimes in the studies were strangers to the victim/s and the overriding majority motive for doing so was an intent to sexually assault the victim/s.

But of course I could be wrong on the motive speculation since I don't have any irrefutable evidence to back any of it up at this time.... even though I am sure the investigators do know if this was sexual assault motivated. In this case we don't even know how the girls were killed but we do know he left DNA.

JMO though

Thank you for this post, I find myself in complete agreement and it's how I've viewed this case from the start.

I hope you didn't think I was trying to one up you with my added information about the Weleetka example you cited; I was trying to lend support to your message. It shows that when women and girls are the victims of crimes like this, whether or not they knew their attacker, there is an underlying and pervasive sexual violence that triggers the crime in many if not most cases. And this is a very sad commentary about the world we all live in.

 

[margarita25]

Hello, all! Long time lurker, first time poster here, so please excuse any formatting or content errors!

I have followed this tragic case since day 1, and I frequently search for updates and new information. Based on everything I've seen and heard, I wanted to share my two cents about some aspects of the case & BG:

* From the start, I have felt BG is a transient or someone with a job that permits or even requires them to travel (e.g., a semi-truck driver). I have a feeling that Delphi is an area somewhat familiar to BG, but that he is not a local. Perhaps he lived there briefly many years ago, or he has passed through a number of times due to work, etc. Videos I have seen on YouTube seem to depict the Monon Trails as being difficult to access/know about unless you really knew where you were going.
* I believe BG has offended before. This was a brazen attack in broad daylight on not one, but two individuals. I do not believe a first-time murderer would attack more than one person, especially during the daytime in an uncontrollable environment (i.e., they weren't in a small, isolated building; anyone could have potentially come across the attack at any time).
* I do NOT believe Abby or Libby was known to BG or vice-versa prior to their encounter on Feb. 13.
* I believe BG had gone out already planning on attacking a victim, but was either: 1. Looking for a victim around 18-30 or 2. Was looking for a victim of any age.
To clarify: Assuming this was a crime of opportunity/he did not know Abby or Libby prior, what were the odds that on a Monday, during the early afternoon, that two junior-high age girls would be there? I feel that he might have expected to come across a young woman who was perhaps off-work at the time and decided to head to the trails (the 18-30 y.o. age range I mentioned), or a woman of any age - but NOT children. I hope LE is looking into similar crimes that have occurred involving victims much older than Abby & Libby.
* I believe BG's motive was (sickeningly and tragically) sexual in nature. I doubt anyone would think a young teenager would have much to offer if they were being robbed (e.g., for substantial cash or credit cards).

So, in summary: I believe BG is a transient or someone who travels for work (e.g., trucker), and is somewhat familiar with Delphi/the trails, but is not a local. I believe he has offended before, but did not know Abby or Libby prior. I believe he went out that day with the intention of targeting/sexually assaulting/killing a victim, but probably not girls who were as young as Abby & Libby.

I apologize if this rambled longer than the average post! God bless to all and I pray we bring these courageous young girls and their loved ones justice.

Welcome DoABarrelRoll!

:welcome4: