IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[SuzDuJour]

If he moved twenty+ times in a few years, maybe grandma was/ is taking care of him...

 

[oviedo]

Maybe because this included potential criminal charges, they wanted to talk to an attorney who was familiar with cruise accidents.

I have no problem with them consulting an attorney but she is one - it’s the choice of the firm that has me wondering and of course the blaming of the ship, the cruise line, everyone but the person who held her at- near- or outside a window 11 stories up then dropped her to a horrible death
JMO

 

[Montrealaise]

It was ultimately up to the parents to make sure whoever walked off with Chloe while they were otherwise engaged was CAPABLE, RESPONSIBLE, and all around "with it" to manage her in their absence. JMOO

Perhaps that's why they are so insistent that Grandpa was not at fault - it they admit that he is responsible, they also have to face the fact that they entrusted their toddler to a person who, much as he loved her, does not have the judgment and common sense needed to take care of a small child.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Perhaps that's why they are so insistent that Grandpa was not at fault - it they admit that he is responsible, they also have to face the fact that they entrusted their toddler to a person who, much as he loved her, does not have the judgment and common sense needed to take care of a small child.

I think they're confused/going through acceptance as to what happened. If they actually believed it was the cruise ship's fault, they wouldn't have SA pay for his criminal defense lawyer (SA is supposedly of 'modest means,' but Chloe's parents aren't) and I can't imagine his prosecutor DIL would have him do that interview re-enacting what happened when originally she wisely had him not give a formal statement to LE. It's got to be setting in what happened now that it it turned out SA lied, which Chloe neither asked to be lifted up nor was Chloe trying to bang on glass but it was all SA's actions instead in addition to admitting to barely holding onto Chloe with merely one arm and a closed fist.

 

[Aydrianna523]

Oh dear, I'm wavering again. Sorry.
But what if they were all happily socializing. Having fun. He's busy chasing the baby. Puts her up to the window thinking there's glass in it and didn't really analyze it much further, then......
Maybe even earlier when he had looked over at the windows, they all did appear shut so he never had another thought about it being open.
And then there's the fact that he's color blind.
A further question might be:
Is he familiar with cruises? He might think they lock windows.
(I wouldn't personally do it. I'm petrified of heights).
Sorry I'm wavering but I saw him, his wife, and Chloe's pictures before the incident, and the pictures afterwards when they arrived back in the States. The grandparents look pretty innocent.
AND, a case in point is his lawyer says he's not a drinker.
Sorry 'my bad' to waver back to questioning things again.
And, furthermore, there's so many shocking cases of intentional murderers and rapists getting off so easy, I just don't know....
Sorry if my opinion is upsetting.
My opinion is subject to change.

 

[oviedo]

Oh dear, I'm wavering again. Sorry.
But what if they were all happily socializing. Having fun. He's busy chasing the baby. Puts her up to the window thinking there's glass in it and didn't really analyze it much further, then......
Maybe even earlier when he had looked over at the windows, they all did appear shut so he never had another thought about it being open.
And then there's the fact that he's color blind.
A further question might be:
Is he familiar with cruises? He might think they lock windows.
(I wouldn't personally do it. I'm petrified of heights).
Sorry I'm wavering but I saw him, his wife, and Chloe's pictures before the incident, and the pictures afterwards when they arrived back in the States. The grandparents look pretty innocent.
AND, a case in point is his lawyer says he's not a drinker.
Sorry 'my bad' to waver back to questioning things again.
And, furthermore, there's so many shocking cases of intentional murderers and rapists getting off so easy, I just don't know....
Sorry if my opinion is upsetting.
My opinion is subject to change.

Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship
Snipped-bbm
In the video, which did not include audio, Chloe, wearing a white hat, her swim suit and swim shoes, runs across the pool area with her grandfather a few feet behind.

They walk over to the wall of windows where Anello appears to look over the railing, through the open window. Anello picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing, and they appear to lean over together looking out over the port.

Then he re-adjusts and sits Chloe on the railing, still facing the port. They lean over again and she disappears from the frame.

Moments later, Anello drops to the ground. Winkleman said Anello repeatedly screamed that he thought the window was closed.
——-
Embedded in the article is the interpretation of the video - not the attorneys view IMO no audio so it’s the attorney saying he thought the window was closed but how could he ? He leaned over in the video twice! I see no other way to interpret this.

This also answers the question we had regarding what direction she was facing - (towards the port) JMO

Just bringing this back up ... again ...

 

[Stinalyn]

Oh dear, I'm wavering again. Sorry.
But what if they were all happily socializing. Having fun. He's busy chasing the baby. Puts her up to the window thinking there's glass in it and didn't really analyze it much further, then......
Maybe even earlier when he had looked over at the windows, they all did appear shut so he never had another thought about it being open.
And then there's the fact that he's color blind.
A further question might be:
Is he familiar with cruises? He might think they lock windows.
(I wouldn't personally do it. I'm petrified of heights). Anyways,
Sorry I'm wavering but I saw him, his wife, and Chloe's pictures before the incident, and the pictures afterwards when they arrived back in the States. The grandparents look pretty innocent.
AND, a case in point is his lawyer says he's not a drinker.
Sorry 'my bad' to waver back to questioning things again.
And, furthermore, there's so many shocking cases of intentional murderers and rapists getting off so easy, I just don't know....
Sorry if my opinion is upsetting.
My opinion is subject to change.

The lawyer who said he was not a drinker was Winkleman who actually isn't SA's attorney but was hired by the family to possibly file a lawsuit against RCCL.
This is also the same lawyer who seems to have provided the narrative about Chloe wanting to"bang on the glass" , which by SA's own admission in recent interviews we now know isn't true.
I don't know that I believe what MW is saying with regard to SA being a drinker or not.
It is suspicious to me that he refused a breathalyzer. I know he was advised to do so, but if he wasn't drinking, why not take the test?

 

[al66pine]

SA's Frequent Moves?

If he moved twenty+ times in a few years, maybe grandma was/ is taking care of him...

@SuzDuJour IIRC, someone here said they counted ~ 29 moves on a public record report.
I noticed ---
--- a few addy's pre-dated 2000.
--- a couple addy's were PO boxes (one in Ohio).
--- one addy was shown twice, w same date.
--- one addy was displayed 3 times, w same date. Duplicate/erroneous entry?
Even ignoring these ^, looks like SA moved ~20 in ~ 20 yrs; mostly in South Bend/Valparaiso areas, except for a few in early/mid 2000s in Moline IL/quad city area. << per cursory glance at zip codes.

Who moves that frequently?

 

[Stinalyn]

The thing that bothers me the most about this whole situation is the lack of focus on what happened to poor Chloe.
She fell 115 feet to her death!!
Can you even imagine how terrified that poor child must have been? And please don't kid yourself that she didn't feel any pain. She hit an awning on the way down. I'm sorry to have to re- state these awful details but they are facts. That is what happened.
SA is responsible.
And her family is acting very strangely. I want justice for Chloe.

 

[mickey2942]

The thing that bothers me the most about this whole situation is the lack of focus on what happened to poor Chloe.
She fell 115 feet to her death!!
Can you even imagine how terrified that poor child must have been? And please don't kid yourself that she didn't feel any pain. She hit an awning on the way down. I'm sorry to have to re- state these awful details but they are facts. That is what happened.
SA is responsible.
And her family is acting very strangely. I want justice for Chloe.

It is interesting that her family wants "justice" too...from Royal Caribbean! Must be some sort of denial, delusional thinking that the cruise line is at fault.

How many children go on cruises with their families? Must be in the 1000's. I have seen many children on cruises.

How many children have "fallen" out of windows on cruise ships? This is the only one I have heard of....

So? Who is at fault here?

 

[justbreathe]

Oh, ok, so I guess it's not a barrier at all. I thought maybe he was breaking some kind of safety rule by lifting her over it.
Also in the picture in the article that was just posted with the detectives at the scene the metal bar looks much lower than in other pictures I've seen. I thought he lifted her much higher to place her over the metal bar. In that picture it looks like it's only a couple of inches higher than the window ledge.
I'm not sure why he removed one arm from around her, then.

Imo

I disagree, I think it is clearly a barrier to prevent people from leaning out the open window. (And to grab onto, also.) They are not for sitting.

 

[justbreathe]

I see it.
But if I had an apt, let's say 11 floors up, I definitely wouldn't be leaving windows open. You can be sure of that! Is every floor like that? With some open and some closed windows?

This is not a building. It is a ship. It has open decks many stories above the ocean.

 

[Wowno17]

Oh dear, I'm wavering again. Sorry.
But what if they were all happily socializing. Having fun. He's busy chasing the baby. Puts her up to the window thinking there's glass in it and didn't really analyze it much further, then......
Maybe even earlier when he had looked over at the windows, they all did appear shut so he never had another thought about it being open.
And then there's the fact that he's color blind.
A further question might be:
Is he familiar with cruises? He might think they lock windows.
(I wouldn't personally do it. I'm petrified of heights).
Sorry I'm wavering but I saw him, his wife, and Chloe's pictures before the incident, and the pictures afterwards when they arrived back in the States. The grandparents look pretty innocent.
AND, a case in point is his lawyer says he's not a drinker.
Sorry 'my bad' to waver back to questioning things again.
And, furthermore, there's so many shocking cases of intentional murderers and rapists getting off so easy, I just don't know....
Sorry if my opinion is upsetting.
My opinion is subject to change.

Well my opinion won't change, I completely agree with you and I unlike others see this as a terrible awful mistake.

 

[justbreathe]

For whatever it’s worth that’s not been reported. His lawyer says nothing in the video is inconsistent with him thinking there was a window there. So no peering out. I believe that’s probably true. Even though defense counsel often lie in high profile cases.

But I have a feeling that statement is true.

Here’s the thing- they sued right away, he refused an alcohol test and they went on the offensive. That likely bothered the authorities.

In cases where a child dies and a question as to whether to charge a parent or grandparent with negligence or worse hangs in the balance, and there’s no evidence that they’re otherwise negligent, contrition seems to be a deciding factor in not charging.

But how can he refuse to take a breathalyzer (per the parents’ advice), and then they sue? Wth?

I did hear that he did peer out by reporters who saw the video.

 

[justbreathe]

Point is there is no window ledge to sit on when window closed. Bc the window rides on the tracking. Same like your house. Window closed can’t sit on sill. On ship no sill even! Window open in your house or ship, enough to sit on and even dangle your feet over it.
Measure your house windows.
He stood her up on the rail. About a foot away from the visible tracks to the window so he sits her there so he doesn’t have to balance her on rail. But can just hold her while she sits on the window tracks.
Exact measurements would put this entire fiasco about not knowing window open to rest.

I don’t think he sat her on the track on the window ledge. I think that was a misunderstanding. I also think the railing is metal, like brass, not wood, and that is where he sat her. Maybe with her feet on the ledge where the track is (if they could even reach!).

 

[oviedo]

I don’t think he sat her on the track on the window ledge. I think that was a misunderstanding. I also think the railing is metal, like brass, not wood, and that is where he sat her. Maybe with her feet on the ledge where the track is (if they could even reach!).

I think he did have her outside the window (see my previous post of the interview by reporter who actually SAW the video of her falling to her death) and whether he held her outside or sat her on the ledge or the rail does not matter at all IMO - he had her in a position where she dropped to her death from his arms - what else is there to discuss at this point?
JMO

 

[al66pine]

How Did Parents Find Winkleman?
If not thru a personal recommendation, another possibility.
She/they might have checked Martindale Hubbell, premier directory of lawyers, est'd 1868.
Start at............. martindale.com
then click on..... browse all practice areas
then click on..... cruise ship injuries ------ then FL, then Miami ....list of 25 firms, inc. Lipcon w Winkleman.
then click on their website. lipcon.com

I doubt, as atty she'd use yellow pages (hard copy or online) to wade thru a bunch of unknowns. Or maybe she got recommendation thru someone she knew. jmo, could be wrong.

 

[justbreathe]

It's still really hard, though, for me personally to fault the grandfather. I know. I know. That's not the way the law works. And I do basically think people aren't careful in their daily going about.
But there's the aspect (in the back of my mind) that so many Grandpas don't get involved at all in their grandkids lives. You know... the cold turkey types. So you have here a grandparent who appears to enjoy being a part of Chloe's life. And what happens?!
It's probably legal negligence, but it's hard for me to NOT give him the benefit of the doubt.

I think it was an accident. But even if he genuinely believed there was glass, that is not a reasonable belief. A reasonable person would and should have known there was not glass. Maybe not prison time, but some punishment so people understand you cannot stand children on handrailings, and if you do, *you* are responsible for the consequences.

 

[al66pine]

Winkleman Website, w App for Cruise Ship Injuries
At lipcon.com homepage, scroll down to see the firm's handy dandy app for your phone, available for downloading BEFORE your cruise. Did parents download app before their cruise?

"Download Our Free Cruise Ship Injury App
Our legal team has developed a unique iPhone and Android-compatible application designed to help you when you need a maritime lawyer the most. Download our exclusive application and bring it with you on your smartphone or tablet on your next cruise vacation. Our app allows you to easily store and retain everything you might need to present to a lawyer:

• Capture and record data and photos about your accident or injuries

• Input and track injury-related expenses

• Review incident response checklists to help you in a cruise accident

• Find the closest medical facility

• Place Skype calls from your device if you are injured at sea

• Submit a free case evaluation form to our team.

Designed and launched exclusively by our firm, the app offers every feature you need if you are injured on your next cruise ship excursion – even a built-in flashlight if you are caught in the dark. Download it for free today." bbm.
Maritime Injury Attorney | Miami Cruise Accident Lawyers | LMAW, P.A

 

[drama_farmer]

Let's imagine that we could turn back the clock and close the window that Chloe was dropped from. My brain keeps circling back to the fact that a 51 year old step grandfather wanted to encourage a toddler to bang or hit a glass window. I can't imagine that would be classified as reasonable. . . regardless of the deadly outcome. IMO