IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

Discussion in 'Crimes-Spotlight on Children' started by IceIce9, Oct 28, 2019.

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  1. FactFinder3000

    FactFinder3000 Well-Known Member

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    There's just no way to recreate the winds through the window, though. You can't know exactly how windy it was and what direction it was blowing from.

    Personally, if I'm on the jury, it comes down to whether or not they can prove any part of SA went out the window. I do think he put his hands on the window sill, but if he assumed there was glass there he could have put his hands down in a way that they would not go out the window. Grabbing the near side of the sill with his thumbs.

    I will also say, though, that there are plenty of cues that that window is open. For him to have missed all of them does make me think he must have been very drunk. So does that help him, or hurt him? Isn't looking after a child while severely drunk negligence? I seem to recall a case where a caregiver was arrested for as much.
     
  2. Midwestmom2019

    Midwestmom2019 Well-Known Member

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    He’s like a kid who didn’t do his homework. Every excuse but the real one.
     
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  3. Forever Young

    Forever Young Well-Known Member

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    The bottom line is whether a juror can be convinced that SA thought there was glass there. All the noise and wind in the world can be simply answered, "no, I did not notice any wind, (which cannot be seen), or noise, (which cannot be seen)".

    Maybe ALL of this is insignificant, as to how far his head or arms could reach past the opening, if you can't see an opening.

    It's his word about what he was thinking, against everyone else's. Whose better to say what he was thinking than himself? Everybody else's thoughts about what he was thinking is speculation. He only has to convince one juror that he really did think there was glass there, no matter what the circumstances were.

    From that point, the jury could proceed to determine that even if SA thought there was glass there, to what degree was his behavior still negligent. IMOO
     
  4. Midwestmom2019

    Midwestmom2019 Well-Known Member

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    Why do we care who or what leaked the videos, as long as they are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
    Ok, if they are early, there may be some liability for damages to someone. They were going to come out sooner or later. Winkleman showed them to enough news networks in an alleged software issue state that wasn’t fact based. To the contrary, all for his side.
    I fail to see why the family has an issue with releasing UNALTERED videos. They like Winkleman’s version better?
     
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  5. SpanishInquisition

    SpanishInquisition Well-Known Member

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    It would take more than just one juror to think SA thought there was glass there. I see his actions as described by SA himself as inherently negligent even if there was glass there. Putting kids on railings and sills is asking for severe injury or death. The re-enactment itself shows how recklessly SA held Chloe where it shows being held by two hands on the windowsill but SA himself said it was one closed fist and clearly as Winkleman's own picture shows, such a grip on Chloe while on the sill would be extremely tenuous risking at a minimum her falling between the rail and the sill getting a potentially fatal rabbit punch to the back of the head.
     
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  6. jeena

    jeena Well-Known Member

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    I addressed this issue way earlier, but IIRC, I didn't get any replies, just likes. MW says passengers open the windows. Isn't doing so breaching the railing, especially if they have to lean in to grab the handle and slide it right to left? Do they go under the railing to open them, (even worse)?
    When I first posted about this, I thought the railing and the window were much further apart, I was shocked to see how close the railing and window actually are from the photos! I don't believe SA didn't know the window was open being in such close proximity to it, especially since 1/3 of it was closed!
    Did he move CW over to the left to bang on the closed section of the window but she missed it and went over when he let her go?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  7. justice4allnow

    justice4allnow Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for such a clear, succinct explanation. It's exactly what I presumed as well.
     
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  8. Andreee

    Andreee Well-Known Member

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    Also, I do not think the tv companies would agree amongst them to release or not release anything. I think it is an individual CBS/ABC/NBC decision.
     
  9. Lawnguylander1964

    Lawnguylander1964 Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of the jury, during jury selection, is it appropriate to ask a potential juror's experience with cruising, RCCL specifically as a customer? I would think that RCCL would want jurors who have been on cruise ships and have that basic understanding of the wind/breeze/sea spray, windows, rails, etc. Like many of the posters here who have been on similar ships and this exact ship, does this help RCCL or hurt them?
     
  10. Montrealaise

    Montrealaise Well-Known Member

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    If you compare a still of the man sticking his forearm out the window to the video still where SA is leaning forward from his waist, practically bent over the railing. there is no way SA's head was NOT out of the window.
     
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  11. al66pine

    al66pine Well-Known Member

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    @Forever Young sbm

    Most of us, including me, make assumptions from time to time. I think everyone appreciates it when a poster making assumptions makes that explicit. I try to, but know I've slipped up. :(My apologies, if it seemed over the top.

    Anyway, glad :Dyou:D are here, offering thoughts & raising interesting points. :D:D:cool::cool:
     
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  12. jeena

    jeena Well-Known Member

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    SA said the glass disappeared, but 1/3 of the glass was still there. If he didn't see glass attached to the frame and the handle, he has bigger vision problems than he is admitting to, IMO, or he is not telling the truth. Give him a polygraph!
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  13. 10ofRods

    10ofRods Verified Anthropologist

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    MW isn't involved in the criminal trial, and laws for what's allowable in a civil suit vary from state to state. IANAL but I work closely with some of them, ha.

    MW is trying to influence potential jurors in the civil case, in a clumsy, amateurish way. For the civil trial (which will never take place, IMO).
     
  14. LietKynes

    LietKynes "Law is the ultimate science" Liet Kynes

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    Bbm
    Bingo.

    Would a person(s) lie if it meant they could get a payout that was estimated by the lawyer to be unlimited ?
    Not saying anyone is.
    But if they are wanting to conceal the truth --the cast of characters is a large one.
    Putting out an altered video and claiming it's unedited sounds like lying.
     
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  15. redabby

    redabby Well-Known Member

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    I would have thought they would have gone for undiagnosed Distorted Vision (Metamorphopsia) or perception Macropsia If they could have but then again tests would probably disprove hence the colour blindness. Although tests can give a good sign of whether you are colour blind or not as we found out when my son was about 10 or 11 at school.
     
  16. they'll get you

    they'll get you CHRIS. P. BACON

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    But surely mother wouldn’t have left him in charge if he was that drunk unless she gave him strict instructions to stay where she left him and Chloe.
     
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  17. jeena

    jeena Well-Known Member

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    I had hearing problems at your son's age, I would get in trouble for not listening to my parents, but I couldn't hear them! Hearing tests at school detected it and the doctor fixed it. My mom is amazed I still hear so well in my 60's, she's 90 and can hear somewhat, be she needs aids now. I attach them to her earrings with a little wire and chain,they never get lost. Glad your son was diagnosed at school too!
    Maybe SA has more than vision problems, maybe hearing too?
    This incident is such a shame, never should have happened. I never let anyone watch my mom outside my house, I wouldn't trust them to watch her like I do so she doesn't lose her balance and fall. She had cataracts and got implants done, she sees better than me and without glasses!
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  18. SaguaroSpirit

    SaguaroSpirit Happy Halloween

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    So does changing the story. Red flags a-flappin'.
     
  19. they'll get you

    they'll get you CHRIS. P. BACON

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    182C8E33-E09F-44D8-A11F-E234942726A1.jpeg
    Is this what he was thinking after he put his head out?
     
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  20. Andreee

    Andreee Well-Known Member

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    This may sound silly, but was the grandfather wearing sunglasses at the time of the tragedy? I only ask because I wear various sunglasses (some darker, some lighter in lenses) and it makes a difference as to perception.
     
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