IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

Discussion in 'Crimes-Spotlight on Children' started by IceIce9, Oct 28, 2019.

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  1. Forever Young

    Forever Young Well-Known Member

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    Kindred, fabvab and they'll get you like this.
  2. Lawnguylander1964

    Lawnguylander1964 Well-Known Member

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    I'm reading in two other forums and there's a lot of misinformation out there, but I'm not seeing any support for SA. I've noticed people on the fence waiting for the court to decide have jumped off the fence now and want SA to be held responsible.
     
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  3. SpanishInquisition

    SpanishInquisition Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like the substantial factor would be improper supervision by the parent or guardian, which on land such an event happening of allowing a child to fall out a window is a chargeable criminal offense to the child's guardian:
    Toddler Falls from Roof, Babysitter Arrested
    Mother speaks after child falls out of window under care of babysitter
     
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  4. they'll get you

    they'll get you CHRIS. P. BACON

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    Winkleman is being a typical lawyer who is a trained ‘wordsmith’.

    In Australia we had a spate of ‘king hits’ or ‘one punch’ attacks where an unsuspecting person was punched from behind.

    One lawyer argued it was not the punch that killed the victim but the concrete that his head hit.

    Or if a victim who runs from an assailant and gets hit by a car, was it the attack or the car that caused the death?

    This is the kind of word games that Winkleman is playing IYKWIM. That’s their job.

    Of course Australia went berserk when this tripe was presented and there is a law against such an attack.
     
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  5. FactFinder3000

    FactFinder3000 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, and apparently he discovered his color blindness after the incident. Like that has anything to do with this incident, frankly. It's not about color, it's about opaqueness. Tinted windows let through less light. Anybody can see that. And what is particularly damning, in my view, is that doubled windows, such as exists directly to the right of the opening, are very obviously darker.
     
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  6. they'll get you

    they'll get you CHRIS. P. BACON

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    Or is the substantial factor the concrete that truly killed Chloe?
    Jeeze now I’m thinking like a lawyer. Arghhhh
     
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  7. Lawsmygame2

    Lawsmygame2 Well-Known Member

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    exactly. You summed it up perfectly.

    The site needs a “love” ❤️ button. :)
     
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  8. Forever Young

    Forever Young Well-Known Member

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    Another snip> from FindLaw's California Court of Appeal case and opinions.

    “[A] parent may be guilty of contributory negligence in not giving proper supervision over a child, but ․ it is a question of fact for the jury to decide whether such lack of supervision was negligence under all the circumstances.”  (Christiana v. Rattaro (1947) 81 Cal.App.2d 597, 599;  Baker, supra, 73 F.2d at p. 828

    Here is, IMO, a court opinion stating that conduct that might be considered negligence in one situation, might not be considered to be negligence in another situation.

    Now I think I know why the subject of banging on glass at the hockey rink is pertinent to this case. Is the act of allowing a child to bang on glass, in and of itself, negligent?
     
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  9. SpanishInquisition

    SpanishInquisition Well-Known Member

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    Adult supervision is required at all times for children under 12:
    Q: Can I leave my child under the supervision of a lifeguard?
    A:Lifeguards are not babysitters. They are there to reduce risk and take action in the event of an emergency. Although lifeguards are on duty, adult supervision is required for children ages 12 and under at all times.
    https://www.royalcaribbean.com/faq/...my-child-under-the-supervision-of-a-lifeguard
    So even if this happened in the H20 Zone, SA was still responsible for supervising Chloe that she didn't go out any windows even if she somehow climbed up there on her own.
     
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  10. they'll get you

    they'll get you CHRIS. P. BACON

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    I understand Forever Young’s healthy debate as she/he is presenting the thinking and speaking of a lawyer, this is exactly what twists and turns that will be presented.

    Here’s another, SA said he lost his footing or slipped so why isn’t he suing RCC for a spillage that caused him to slip and lose his grip?
    I’m surprised Winkleman hadn’t thought of that one yet!
     
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  11. Midwestmom2019

    Midwestmom2019 Well-Known Member

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    Even simpler:
    Those window cases had children who could gain access to them on their own. Here, the distinguishing feature is that Chloe never could have reached the window, even standing on a table.
    That’s the difference.
    In other words, RCCL DID more than window standards. They met industry standards by ONLY having opening windows across the top tier. The second and floor level windows do not open for that very reason. It poses a danger to little ones.
     
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  12. SpanishInquisition

    SpanishInquisition Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely putting a child on tall railing to bang on glass is itself negligent, like the picture put out on the family doesn't show her banging on glass on something like this:
    Stock Photo - Curious boy standing at railing watching ice hockey rink
    Instead she's banging on glass at the ground level because falling backwards off something like the hockey glass pictured above could result in injury or death, especially with the confession by SA of only holding Chloe with one closed fist while on the sill. You hold a child loosely with one closed fist like on the hockey railing picture I've linked to, you're asking for dire consequences. Just look at page 4 of the Winkleman re-enactment where they show how negligent SA was by putting Chloe on the sill.
     
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  13. Midwestmom2019

    Midwestmom2019 Well-Known Member

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    This isn’t a contrib case. It’s not even negligence. It’s malice and aforethought.
    But you know that, don’t you?
     
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  14. wackyw

    wackyw Well-Known Member

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    Because there was no spillage and he lost his "balance and grip" due to the forward movement of a falling CW maybe? Or drunk maybe. And those comments are " he said xxxxx" from local officials aren't they? I wonder if they are verbatim from an official questioning and whether they will stand up in court if it eventually gets there? I have a feeling not, but RCCL claim they have witnesses, so maybe they will back it up.
     
  15. Midwestmom2019

    Midwestmom2019 Well-Known Member

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    Don’t bite. The thread will get shut down.
     
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  16. wackyw

    wackyw Well-Known Member

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    I refer you to posts #424 (snoods) and #426 (chikkamma) of this thread that put this colour blindness crap to bed :) :)
     
  17. Midwestmom2019

    Midwestmom2019 Well-Known Member

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    Not only NO, but HELL NO.
     
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  18. Stinalyn

    Stinalyn Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you. And I should clarify my post from earlier because I don't think I did a good job of explaining my position.
    I 100% think SA is responsible for Chloe's death. I do not think RCCL is at fault here. The simple fact is that Chloe would not have been able to reach that window without help, he is the one that put her in danger IMO. He (SA) killed her, as horrific as that is to wrap my head around. IMO JMO

    My only point of uncertainty has been in trying to figure out what (in the name of all- that- is -holy) could have caused Gramps to pick her up and put her in that position, and then drop her (ugh).
    I have considered every possible ( I think) reason or explanation and the only two that seem to make sense to me are that either he was impaired in some way (drugs/medication/drinking) or the unthinkable (IMO)alternative...namely that this was somehow a planned act, or deliberate and that SA is an evil man.
    ***I'm not saying I think he is evil, but that if this was a deliberate act, it would follow that he is evil in that case. IMO JMO
    I know there are other possibilities, as many of you have done a great job of listing them, but they don't seem as likely to me.

    As much as I hate to let my mind go there, I have to admit I have wondered if this was indeed about money, and I really really hope it wasn't. But I want justice for Chloe, even if that means discovering something horrific and nefarious. I haven't made up my mind, and haven't seen enough evidence to convince me that it wasn't an accident, but it certainly seems like something is "off" with this family and SA in particular w/ the changing stories, excuses and lies. My gut feeling is that there is a whole lot more to this than we know, and I hope the whole truth does come out. JMO MOO etc.
     
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  19. al66pine

    al66pine Well-Known Member

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    @Forever Young :) Yes, could happen w same results. Not sure if you are commenting on Wiegand or RCL. Are you saying because (you think/someone thinks) there is a condition on RCL ship was could be made safer, that someone should file a lawsuit to encourage, or for a court to order, RCL to make condition safer, even without any being injured?
    Or saying something else? (I've been having crippling-brain-denseness-spells lately, so pls be patient :);):D:rolleyes:).
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  20. wackyw

    wackyw Well-Known Member

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    replying to my own post to correct the bit BBM - He does have glasses on in the picture I was thinking of, I just didn't see them. Revealed to me in a larger picture. There's a joke in there somewhere, but I'm not going to hunt for it :)
     
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