IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

Discussion in 'Crimes-Spotlight on Children' started by IceIce9, Oct 28, 2019.

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  1. Midwestmom2019

    Midwestmom2019 Well-Known Member

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    No concern. Observation. Curiosity. They might sacrifice elsewhere. Saving on vehicles by driving beaters. Clipping coupons. Shopping thrift stores. From the family photos, they appear to have a beautiful home. Take advantage of social activities. Games. Outings. Chloe’s clothing is precious. I don’t know about a foodie, but definitely a clothes horse. Clothes Pony.
    We don’t know how they manage to provide for an apparently great life on their incomes. No one bemoans their life. Or is envious of their life. AW might work overtime every chance he gets. Or a second job periodically. We don’t know if KW is working. Apparently before she was with the DA’s office. That’s the point. We’re asking.
    We do know they have internet sites to raise funds for themselves. For SA. And that intrigues us. Many of us feel like this speaks to the type of people they are. Funds for tragedies usually are set up by friends or other family. Neighbors. And it’s a one time deal. They had a site for the son’s hockey trip prior to this cruise. Did they have other sites? No sleuthing so we don’t know.

    Americans are some of the MOST generous people on earth. Volunteer hours logged by Americans way and by far outpace other countries. Maybe if they hadn’t traveled before AND the son needed help with funding his hockey trip, I’d feel different. It seems that they can afford a beautiful home, active social life, multiple cruising vacations, in whatever cabins they choose, yet rely on raising money on the internet for their son’s hockey trip. Or Chloe’s funeral. Yet cremate her. Or SA’s criminal defense. I doubt $5000 pays for much of SA defense costs. Travel and hotels. Sure. But apparently his attorney is preparing a mock up. Hiring experts. That’s not cheap.
    Go Fu nd Me is just another piece of the family tragedy.
    Like your very descriptive posts about motive, intent. The distinction between the two and how they apply in general to litigation, was very important. At least to me. We all kind of sort of know these things, but reading a concise and very accurate differentiation, is extremely helpful in reviewing cases. He INTENDED to lift her up. He INTENDED to put her over, at least
    it appears that way from some videos. Did he intend to drop her? Motive. And to ask that question, makes way more sense to me in determining his criminal guilt or innocence. Even though it’s not required by law. And of which crime. Why would he do that? I have several opinions. May be true. May be false. But pinning down motive would help me in jury deliberations. The entire picture is important. Bc if we miss a piece that is game changer, deal killer, we’ve missed our opportunity to render the correct verdict. The more we know, the better the chances are that the correct verdict is rendered.
    That’s why we love to read what MW is describing in his pleadings. Re-enacting the scene. We nit pick everything to death. What’s correct. What’s wrong. What’s possible. What’s impossible. Improbable. We are investigating all angles and leaving no stone overturned in our quest. I think that’s what WS posters do the best. Group effort. Group discussions.
    By filing the civil lawsuit, they have put themselves under the microscope of public scrutiny. They are also under the microscope of the RCCL defense team. Almost everything is fair game as long as it can reasonably lead to the discovery of relevant information. How many lawsuits they’ve filed in the past. SA driving records. Employment. Health records of Chloe maybe and SA for sure. Tax returns. It’s a wide and deep search. And behind the scenes, RCCL will be checking South Bend records on the family. I won’t speculate what they will search for, but I guarantee the search will be thorough. It could discover compromising information. Skeletons. Who knows what.
    That’s the nature of the beast. Kind of like if you run for a political office. Expect the worst information to be dug up by your opponent.
    Hopefully, I’ve explained my position clearly so that you can follow my logic. I can get twisted up by emotions. But it’s important to keep a clear mind. Emotions have little to do with the facts.
     


  2. Midwestmom2019

    Midwestmom2019 Well-Known Member

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    We’re working on it.
     
  3. oviedo

    oviedo Well-Known Member

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    One thing I never noticed before is how much his upper body bulk takes up the available open window space imo DCA7DEF7-D080-47F8-81EF-3AF5C28756A3.jpeg This is from my cruise - it’s sideways but you can see the opening just isn’t that big - he used a lot of effort to get her out that window IMO
     
  4. Montrealaise

    Montrealaise Well-Known Member

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    This family has a peculiar mindset - they'll take expensive vacations (fun!) but use crowdfunding for expenses such as their son's hockey, their daughter's funeral and their grandpa's criminal trial (not so fun).
     
  5. SuzDuJour

    SuzDuJour Well-Known Member

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    I don’t see the wall of windows as a hidden danger because of the railing in front of it. He also should’ve read the ship’s rules about staying off the railings. If the windows could not be opened, why was a railing there at all?
     
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  6. oviedo

    oviedo Well-Known Member

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    ITA and I’ve said it before - I don’t think this is the first high space he played this “game” and I think it was a catch type toss and she slipped
    JMO
     
  7. Midwestmom2019

    Midwestmom2019 Well-Known Member

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    I recall you saying this before. Somewhere I saw /read that he tried this on another floor but was stopped.
     
  8. oviedo

    oviedo Well-Known Member

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    Way way way back in July I read the crew was coming to stop him because people by him saw him pass her through the window but they didn’t get there in time apparently - 34 seconds she was outside that window - how many toss ups did he do?
    JMO
     
  9. BeachSky

    BeachSky Well-Known Member

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    I read it also. It was talked about on the first (deleted) thread IMO.
     
  10. WiseGuy

    WiseGuy Well-Known Member

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    Wow, if true that's an absolute bombshell isn't it? Anyone know where they are in the discovery process for the criminal trial? At some point the list of witnesses and their statements to LE are documented right? And they are made available to the defense, and to some extent to the public? Would MW have access to the discovery artifacts via the criminal defense lawyer? Credible, detailed eyewitness accounts, especially if consistent and corroborating, would be the death knell to the family's side in both cases, true?
     
  11. Lawnguylander1964

    Lawnguylander1964 Well-Known Member

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    MW has to move the conversation away from what SA said (because he has made many public statements from the moments of the accident through the CBS interview that can be considered to be in conflict with each other) and what SA did (which is on the video for all the world to see). What he thought is all we have here, bolstered by "color blind" and "lost his balance."

    The same thing with his crazy measurements photos in his answer. This is to tie RCCL in knots trying to discredit and answer those crazy numbers and reconcile them with the actual technical specs of the ship and the furniture, etc.

    It's all to confuse the jury and throw the scent off of SA.
     
  12. Lawnguylander1964

    Lawnguylander1964 Well-Known Member

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    Back when the video was first leaked, we talked about the guy who had been standing in front of the open window and we commented that it appeared that SA was waiting for him to move from that spot. As we stated at the time, there is a wall of windows, so why would he need to wait for that spot to open up to do what he did?

    He knew the window was open.
     
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  13. MommyStephV

    MommyStephV Well-Known Member

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    I haven't finished reading all of the posts, so I apologize if this has been covered already, we are going on a RC cruise in March (we leave in 30 days but who is counting :) ) leaving out of Galveston. I looked at some leaving out of San Juan but the flights to get there were outrageously priced. We live in Nebraska, so to find any cheap flight anywhere is next to impossible, but some of the flights were more than double what we paid for the cruise itself. I even started looking at flights out of Kansas City.

    We got a REALLY good deal on the cruise itself - kids sail free and 60% off the second guest, so our 7 night cruise was less than $1,500 for an ocean view room.

    ETA: that’s for our family of 4. 2 adults and 2 kids.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  14. Lawnguylander1964

    Lawnguylander1964 Well-Known Member

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    Glassdoor puts a Deputy Prosecutor at $56-61K for St Joseph County
     
  15. al66pine

    al66pine Well-Known Member

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    Rails at Windows. Why?
    @SuzDuJour :) bbm Cruise ships' rails are not just to help prevent ppl from falling out windows. In rough seas rails also function as a handhold, so ppl can keep their balance in standing or walking, or in very rough weather, keep themselves from being tossed around. jmo
     
  16. JulieBEMT

    JulieBEMT Well-Known Member

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    For my own curiosity, I decided to look back at both Freedom and Voyager class ships, how long they've been sailing and ship capacity. Royal Caribbean ships normally sail at, or near capacity. But, in my calculations, I subtracted a bit from that capacity. Of course this does not account for weeks the ships were in dry dock, etc., but it's close.
    Freedom Class
    • Freedom of the Seas, in service for 14 years, average 3600 pax per week X 52 weeks = 2,620,800 total passengers
    • Liberty of the Seas, in service for 13 years, same calc as above = 2,433,600 passengers
    • Independence of the Seas, in service for 12 years = 2,246,400 passengers
    Total for Freedom class = 7,300,800

    Voyager Class
    • Voyager of the Seas, in service for 21 years, average of 3100 pax per week = 3,276,000 total passengers
    • Explorer of the Seas, in service for 20 years = 3,224,000 total passengers
    • Adventure of the Seas, in service for 19 years = 3,062, 800 total passengers
    • Navigator of the Seas, in service for 18 years = 2, 901,600 total passengers
    • Mariner of the Seas, in service for 17 years = 2,740,400 total passengers
    Voyager class total 15,204,800

    22.5 million passengers - have managed to sail without anyone falling out one of these windows!
     
  17. al66pine

    al66pine Well-Known Member

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    What Can/Will Witnesses Testify To?

    Specifically ppl, either passengers or crew, on Deck 11.
    1. Did they overhear anything, at the times below?
    --- When KSW & KSW spoke, before she left, when SA began 'supervising.' Was a fam member there?
    --- When SA & Chloe were in splash pad.
    --- When SA squatted at column/pillar, w Chloe.
    --- When SA crossed Squeeze bar area to window.
    --- When SA & Chloe were at window.

    2. Did any of them speak w either SA or Chloe at ^ times?
    3. What did they see SA & Chloe do at the ^ times?


    Woowhee, I wish we had vids of aaaaaall ^ w SA & Chloe.
     
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  18. JerseySleuth17

    JerseySleuth17 Well-Known Member

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    I have stopped entertaining the narrative that SA did not know the window was open. That leads down a black hole of "how could he possibly not know that" and "could a color-blind person not know that". There is literally a VIDEO of him leaning over the railing and if his head wasn't physically out the window, it was so close to the frame that if there had been glass he would bump his face on it. I've been on many RC cruises, you can absolutely 100% tell an open from a shut window, it's not even close. The focus should be on - what was SA doing lifting a toddler up to an open window 11 stories up? Why was he playing a "game" with her in front of an open window? The PR investigation seems to have determined it was reckless (not intentional murder). And ok even if the family wants to defend him like he wouldn't hurt CW on purpose, his actions were completely stupid, reckless, and got her killed. Why are they not suing him instead of RCCL? Maybe once they found out the facts, the decided to sue RCCL b/c that's where the big money is, and told SA he has to go along with this as penance for killing SA. That I could believe more readily than he didn't know the window was open!
     
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  19. SuzDuJour

    SuzDuJour Well-Known Member

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    Does it fit into the timeline?
     
  20. Lawnguylander1964

    Lawnguylander1964 Well-Known Member

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    If this is true, RCCL would have video of that, too.
     
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