Identified! IN - Hammond, Bones found buried, gold ring, Oct'11 - Francine Carlson

[kikid]

As crime scene investigators and forensic anthropologists wearing blue gloves and white surgical masks sifted through the debris, Mendoza and her mother, Delores Starnes of Hammond, nervously paced the yellow-taped perimeter to track their latest finds. She said Doreen Fogle, who was missing several teeth as was the skull, also wore a ring with birthstones called “a mother’s ring” and was a slim, petite woman.

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/8092943-537/family-wonders-if-body-is-woman-missing-since-1996.html

 

[kpdx]

where doreen disappeared from is only about 4 miles from the old bait and tackle shop

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=1...xqrFd8RiDE1cr_MnfPqIQ&vpsrc=6&mra=ls&t=m&z=12

 

[Claudette]

CAUTION LINK CONTAIN GRAPHIC IMAGES

View gallery to see photos of dig. Includes two photos of the skull:
http://posttrib.suntimes.com/photos/galleries/index.html?story=8088354

Thanks - so it looks to me like this person was buried there as opposed to placed in the crawl space. Between that, seeing the finger bones (IMO they look really old) and knowing that the building was built in the 20s, I think we have a very old missing person's case solved. This was prohibition time I would be curious to know if there was a speakeasy here. I'm looking forward to a clear picture of the ring and to see if it is glaringly art deco.

 

[Centerice]

She said her sister was a Hammond Tech High School graduate who “went out one night to a bar (Milski’s Bar in Hammond) and nobody has seen her since.”

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/8092943-537/family-wonders-if-body-is-woman-missing-since-1996.html

Here is the location of Milskie's pub in Hammond (assuming it is the same one referred to in the article above). It's only 3-4 miles from the building where the remains have been discovered.

http://tinyurl.com/3vf5kxd

 

[Claudette]

The bait and tackle shop was open at the time when Doreen disappeared, correct? The "open 24 hours" thing makes it hard for me to think this is her (willing to be wrong of course) though. Yes, an employee could be the perp but why would she go to a bait and tackle store after going out to a bar?

ETA - oh, I thought she disappeared in 1996 but it looks like 2006. The building was very abandoned then. I know noting about decomp and would be curious to know if it would be possible to be completely skeletonized in that amount of time in cool, dark and probably dry surroundings.

 

[Cubby]

Welcome to WS Centerice!

:welcome:


Interesting about Doreen Fogle. I wonder if the ring she wore was a cross.

I was going to start a thread for her case, but there is so little information available, including when she went missing in 2006. Only a year available that I can find. Sadly, her case is not listed in Charley Project or NamUs.

 

[Cubby]

Thanks - so it looks to me like this person was buried there as opposed to placed in the crawl space. Between that, seeing the finger bones (IMO they look really old) and knowing that the building was built in the 20s, I think we have a very old missing person's case solved. This was prohibition time I would be curious to know if there was a speakeasy here. I'm looking forward to a clear picture of the ring and to see if it is glaringly art deco.

Interesting theory, however I don't know that hair would remain for 80 plus years.

I agree the remains look buried more than any other possibility, however one of the MSM articles indicates the remains were likely disturbed/moved when the building was demolished.

 

[MarthaM]

http://www.best-wedding-anniversary...3Uk1ta2RtYmhjVEtaTGhvbWhjQkpWd3VlYkU3U2tJQT0K


I was doing some searching for the ring described this was all I could find.. what are your thoughts everyone?

To me, the ring doesn't look that 'dainty' or 'open'. It looks more solid to me. But even in the video, it's really hard to see.

Delores Starnes’ 42-year-old daughter, Doreen Fogle, disappeared 15 years ago. Her family has wondered what happened to her. Now they think they might have an answer.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/10...ains-found-in-hammond-could-be-her-daughters/

As crime scene investigators and forensic anthropologists wearing blue gloves and white surgical masks sifted through the debris, Mendoza and her mother, Delores Starnes of Hammond, nervously paced the yellow-taped perimeter to track their latest finds. She said Doreen Fogle, who was missing several teeth as was the skull, also wore a ring with birthstones called “a mother’s ring” and was a slim, petite woman.

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/8092943-537/family-wonders-if-body-is-woman-missing-since-1996.html

I don't think this sounds too promising. For one thing, it doesn't sound like it's a mother's ring that was on the finger. And in the pictures of Fogle that I saw in the articles I read, she doesn't look particularly petite or small. But until we know more details, I suppose it's a possibility.

 

[Cubby]

The bait and tackle shop was open at the time when Doreen disappeared, correct? The "open 24 hours" thing makes it hard for me to think this is her (willing to be wrong of course) though. Yes, an employee could be the perp but why would she go to a bait and tackle store after going out to a bar?

ETA - oh, I thought she disappeared in 1996 but it looks like 2006. The building was very abandoned then. I know noting about decomp and would be curious to know if it would be possible to be completely skeletonized in that amount of time in cool, dark and probably dry surroundings.

MSM indicates Doreen went missing in 2006. I thought MSM indicated the building had been vacant/abandoned for 10 years. It's possible someone placed the remains at the location when the building was vacant.

 

[Centerice]

Thanks for the welcome to WS, Cubby!

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/8092943-537/family-wonders-if-body-is-woman-missing-since-1996.html

According to the above article it states that Doreen has been missing since 1996.

As far as what she would be doing at a 24 hour bait and tackle shop? I agree that it doesn't sound like she'd have any reason to be there but perhaps, as speculated earlier in the thread, she might have met up with an employee of the shop? Who knows... Unlikely but still sounds like a possibility.

 

[kikid]

Everything I've read states Doreen went missing in 1996.

 

[Cubby]

Thanks for the correction as to the year Doreen went missing. I should have caught my error, now that I recall MSM saying she has been missing for 15 years. :doh: Apparently I haven't had enough coffee yet today, or I've had too many distractions from the kiddo. Thanks again!

 

[kikid]

It's probably been deleted, but earlier someone posted information & a link to info about the man who had owned the bait & tackle shop. He had died and it was information about that... if whoever posted that could PM me that link I'd appreciate it.

 

[Centerice]

As crime scene investigators and forensic anthropologists wearing blue gloves and white surgical masks sifted through the debris, Mendoza and her mother, Delores Starnes of Hammond, nervously paced the yellow-taped perimeter to track their latest finds. She said Doreen Fogle, who was missing several teeth as was the skull, also wore a ring with birthstones called “a mother’s ring” and was a slim, petite woman.

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/8092943-537/family-wonders-if-body-is-woman-missing-since-1996.html

I don't think this sounds too promising. For one thing, it doesn't sound like it's a mother's ring that was on the finger. And in the pictures of Fogle that I saw in the articles I read, she doesn't look particularly petite or small. But until we know more details, I suppose it's a possibility.

Doreen is described by her sister as having been a slim, petite woman in the quote linked by kikid above so that seems to fit. The sisters observation the skull had missing teeth and so did Doreen is also interesting.

 

[webrocket]

It's probably been deleted, but earlier someone posted information & a link to info about the man who had owned the bait & tackle shop. He had died and it was information about that... if whoever posted that could PM me that link I'd appreciate it.

it was in my post #24 on this thread:


Whiting and Hammond are 2 different towns I googled "Great Lakes Bait and Tackle" and came up with an address of 1718 Indianapolis Blvd in Whiting, not Hammond. the former owner-operator of the Whiting store passed away earlier this year.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nwi...&pid=147661791

 

[Centerice]

Whiting and Hammond are 2 different towns I googled "Great Lakes Bait and Tackle" and came up with an address of 1718 Indianapolis Blvd in Whiting, not Hammond. the former owner-operator of the Whiting store passed away earlier this year.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nwitimes/obituary.aspx?n=john-h-newton&pid=147661791

for whatever it is worth, neither IL nor IN is great for utilizing Namus for their UIDs so it won't surprise me if the story just fades away.

having said that, the fact there was a cross on the ring would probably rule out Lauren Spierer (Jewish), Promila Mehta-Paul (presumably Hindu), and maybe Robin Abrams (religion unclear, possibly Jewish).

at one time Whiting was hugely Polish although there has been a large influx of Hispanics in the general area (Whiting, Hammond, East Chicago) in the past 20 years or so.

hard to even speculate on who the deceased is without a time frame.

It's probably been deleted, but earlier someone posted information & a link to info about the man who had owned the bait & tackle shop. He had died and it was information about that... if whoever posted that could PM me that link I'd appreciate it.

The link to information (found in the obit) for the shop owner is found above in webrockets post.

Both the shops owner and Doreen (as per the Post-Tribune link) went to Hammond Tech High School. They were within a couple of years of age so maybe its possible that Doreen knew the owner of the bait and tackle shop?

 

[kikid]

it was in my post #24 on this thread:


Whiting and Hammond are 2 different towns I googled "Great Lakes Bait and Tackle" and came up with an address of 1718 Indianapolis Blvd in Whiting, not Hammond. the former owner-operator of the Whiting store passed away earlier this year.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nwi...&pid=147661791

I went back and looked and looked for it! dang, I may need to get my eyes checked! Anyhow -- thanks for the info and for pointing me to it!!! :yourock:

 

[Cubby]

Doreen is described by her sister as having been a slim, petite woman in the quote linked by kikid above so that seems to fit. The sisters observation the skull had missing teeth and so did Doreen is also interesting.

We don't know yet when those teeth went missing. It's possible they were lost post mortem. Hoping for better info on the dentals and ring soon.

 

[Cubby]

One of the things that makes me think this is probably not Doreen is the different descriptions of the ring. Investigators have described it as a cross, and Doreens family has not mentioned the mothers ring she wore was a cross.

I wonder why investigators thought the cross looked like a first communion or confirmation ring. That to me would indicate the person is very young. 1st communion is usually made in 2nd grade. Confirmation is made in 8th. I'm not sure how long a ring made for the average 2nd or 8th grader would fit someone who had not yet grown to full adult size. Though it is possible the ring could have been resized and enlarged later.

 

[CarlK90245]

Looking at the side-view of the skull you can see that the nasal bone protrudes sharply, so it looks like the UID had a prominent nose with a dorsal lump. This is consistent with Doreen.

She also has a strong chin, consistent with the UID's mandible.

Thanks - so it looks to me like this person was buried there as opposed to placed in the crawl space. Between that, seeing the finger bones (IMO they look really old) and knowing that the building was built in the 20s, I think we have a very old missing person's case solved. This was prohibition time I would be curious to know if there was a speakeasy here. I'm looking forward to a clear picture of the ring and to see if it is glaringly art deco.

Sheet plastic (like what is used in trash bags) wasn't used in the 1920's.