IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #35

mpnola

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It still could be those people.
But to your point... There was a rather quick rush to judgment that took place pointing the finger at 5N. Not so much from law enforcement, but law enforcement didn't do much to change that either.
The parents didn't help matters much either, making direct accusations and veiled accusations, and ultimately filing a lawsuit that was a fishing expedition that never got off the ground. That all more or less took the media and public in the direction of 5N. The idea of a random perp, or the boyfriend, tended to get a pass in the media and public's eye.

Statistically, a random perp is low, but now we know within a year of this event, there was actually a random perp operating in the general area LS disappeared from. One with a history of violence, and ultimately a convicted murderer. So now he definitely has put himself on the radar.
But once again, LE is tight-lipped. We know there's been a jailhouse snitch that implicated Messel in the LS case. We don't know how well investigated that was and what came of those investigations. We don't know if Messel had an alibi for the night LS disappeared or not.

At this point, if a case was ever brought against anyone other than Messel in the LS case, the prosecutor is going to need something airtight, or at best a complete and total alibi for Messel showing he could not have done it. Otherwise, Messel is reasonable doubt (for anyone else who'd be charged with the crime).
Thank you. Great explanation

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Ixchel13

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Totally agree with everything you say here. I have never really thought the 5N guys hid her body. but, have always thought they were lying.

yes, they were young people, doing dumb things, making mistakes. but, they were stalking Lauren, badgering Lauren, assaulting her friend and terrorizing her so much she felt she had to literally "run" from the safety of her residence! Obviously, she couldn't run, please somebody don't bring that up! But we all know she was heading home, had reached the very floor of her apartment, and here's where IMO the lying begins from her friends and, IMO, her roommates.

I will always think that HT would not let Lauren in. She has never stated where she was during the altercation, and unless she gets dragged to court under oath, probably never will admit it. I will always think HT called JW and started a second round of chasing and stalking Lauren.

I will always think that JR gave Lauren the sobriety test because he was getting ready to put her out on the street YET AGAIN so JW could confront her. I will always think Lauren left SW and fled to 5N because HT or someone else told her that JW was on his way over. IMO HT called JW because Lauren was trying to let CR into her apartment.

HER apartment. She was an adult, had every right to be there, and HT or whomever wouldn't let her in her own apt. is actually to blame for her death, and the friends who stalked her and chased her out into the dangerous late night,then basically held her and then a couple of hours later, put her back onto those streets.

People say that's not a crime. But in a civil court, perhaps a huge monetary loss and also, severely damaging to any young people trying to get those plummy jobs their rich parents had waiting for them.

trying to get Yeahbabs to repost her map, because DM's killing zone is square on the map. If she can't repost it, perhaps I can use my wits to find it and repost it. One thing I would like to remind people is that the bartender
witness in Lauren's case also knew DM because she was the bar manager of Yogi's! Is that just a strange coincidence? So many fishy things about her testimony!
 

Ixchel13

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https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zgEXA_yx1D10.kUbr8fwCZm8M&usp=sharing
that is the map.http://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zgEXA_YX1D10.kUbr8fwCZM8M&usp=sharing

sorry only one of these works. but when you do get the map, OMG, I forgot how intricate it is. You can pull up his kill zone by using the google map, duh, I'm probably the dumbest person tech wise on this site! But again, this map blows me away. the Grant street triangle , everything. Also remember we expanded the boundaries to include other suspects yes we were working on it and, Yeahbabs made this fascinating, incredible map.
 

PaulR

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I've always thought that the college kids lied because they may have been doing drugs (perhaps with Lauren, perhaps just in her presence - someone said she had been kicked out of summer camp because of drug use, after all) and nobody wanted to admit to the police they were smoking a joint which would have landed them in prison and given them a criminal record. Not being forthcoming is something people picked up on, but it had little to do with her death. MOO of course.
 

AbbeyR

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I don't think akh's analysis would be complete without pointing to the actions of the last people seen with Lauren to explain why they drew the most attention as POI. Given all that has come out, I think there's a good chance that DM is responsible for her disappearance, but the person who dragged her home semi-conscious and the people who sent her off stumbling into the night barefoot without a phone no doubt bear some of the responsibility even if that's the case. I can't help but wonder, had the guys at 5N been more open and cooperative, would the investigation have led elsewhere? When you refuse to answer questions because you are obviously covering for something, no doubt people are going to focus on getting those answers and figuring out what it is that is being covered up that would outweigh finding a missing girl.

I also remember the time someone claiming to be JR posted here about believing Lauren had been 'abducted' (Deleted because it wasn't clear whether it was JR or someone trolling) and the statement from JR, more than a year or so after her disappearance that he thought he saw someone lurking in the shadows. It seems more sinister now, doesn't it....
 

AbbeyR

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Also, at one point in 2011 or 2012 I went through pretty much every reported case of assault in Bloomington and there were a few that were very violent involving young girls walking home alone, including one where a girl was hit so hard her jaw was broken. That stuck in my mind for a long time. I can't remember if someone was arrested in that case or not but I wonder if DM was responsible for any of those unsolved assaults and how many more missed chances there were to get him off the streets :(
 

PaulR

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I don't think akh's analysis would be complete without pointing to the actions of the last people seen with Lauren to explain why they drew the most attention as POI. Given all that has come out, I think there's a good chance that DM is responsible for her disappearance, but the person who dragged her home semi-conscious and the people who sent her off stumbling into the night barefoot without a phone no doubt bear some of the responsibility even if that's the case. I can't help but wonder, had the guys at 5N been more open and cooperative, would the investigation have led elsewhere? When you refuse to answer questions because you are obviously covering for something, no doubt people are going to focus on getting those answers and figuring out what it is that is being covered up that would outweigh finding a missing girl.

I disagree. The person solely responsible for her murder is the person who committed her murder. The inference that what will happen when "my drunk friend walked out of the bar barefoot without a phone in a small college town" is "she will get killed and her body never found" is not something most people will make, especially for extremely drunk college kids. To give an idea of their level of intoxication, all you have to do is look at Lauren who took off her shoes (why?) and didn't go back for her phone or didn't notice she didn't have it (why?) I'm assuming the rest of her friends were that way too. Drunk people do dumb things, and if we are casting blame regardless of intoxication, do we cast blame at Lauren herself?

I do not know if the police did this, but they could have compelled some testimony from the other kids if they offered immunity for things not related to her murder. I suspect they shut up for various reasons, not the least of which was underage drinking and possibly drugs, both crimes that they could have been prosecuted for and were not relevant for fingering DM (as I suspect he would have taken her if she were perfectly sober.)

Also, the police should not just focus on someone because they are not completely forthcoming about everything - there's a great quote from David Simon's "Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets" when he spent a year with the Baltimore homicide unit:

Everyone lies. Murderers lie because they have to; witnesses and other participants lie because they think they have to; everyone else lies for the sheer joy of it, and to uphold a general principle that under no circumstances do you provide accurate information to a cop.

The job of the police is not just to figure out if someone is lying and finger them, it's to figure out who is lying about the murder. If the kids are hiding knowledge about drug and alcohol use, that's something they should have picked up on, and let the kids go.

Instead they didn't, and as AbbeyR points out, the cases of assault continued. At some point the police should have realized that there was a pattern that had nothing to do with Lauren's friends. MOO.
 

AbbeyR

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For the most part I agree with you, Paul. In this case though, CR literally dragged Lauren home semi-conscious when she had no way to consent to what was happening and he took responsibility for her when others tried to help. As a result, IMO, he does hold some accountability (tbh I think there was a valid 'duty of care' legal argument that may have been successful if there had been definitive proof of lauren's death). Drunk people do stupid things, but since when does that let people off the hook for anything? If you have sex with someone who is not able to consent, it's sexual assault regardless of whether you too were drunk. Drunk people can be held accountable for their actions too.

I also agree about the role of the police, though I'm not sure what you mean by the police should have 'let them go'.... How could they totally clear them if they would not answer questions?

Anyway, it doesn't really matter at this point, does it. I was really just expressing that my view of the guys at 5N has not entirely changed, even though my suspicions about Lauren's death have. The only way in which the guys at 5N will be held responsible is that they have to live with what happened. Hopefully it has made them better people in some way in the end. Who knows.
 

CoolJ

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The question for me is: Was LS blocked from entering her apartment that night?

CR tried to take her home and couldn't for whatever reason. So he then took her home to his place and he says he passed out. So MB who doesn't really know her takes her to JR's. JR says he tried to get her to stay. If they are all telling the truth then I go back to her trying to gain entry to her own apartment.... that is when things went wrong. Why couldn't she get into her own apartment?

But then we have the mysterious phone call. One placed to DR and another placed to an unknown individual. Why have LE not released who that individual is?

So my next question is: Could DM have been acquainted with any of the PsOI?
 

AbbeyR

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She was in her own apartment building, but CR got in a fight with some guys and then carried Lauren out of the building. He could have taken her to her apartment -- That's what the guys were trying to get him to do. Or he could have left her there in her building at least, instead of dragging her back to 5N.

Though LE didn't reveal the identity of the second call it was to someone they were with earlier in the night. I think it's highly unlikely that DM was an acquaintance of any of these students.
 

CoolJ

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She was in her own apartment building, but CR got in a fight with some guys and then carried Lauren out of the building. He could have taken her to her apartment -- That's what the guys were trying to get him to do. Or he could have left her there in her building at least, instead of dragging her back to 5N.

Though LE didn't reveal the identity of the second call it was to someone they were with earlier in the night. I think it's highly unlikely that DM was an acquaintance of any of these students.

Not so sure about that. Do you have a source to confirm? Seems to me like they were blocked from entering her apartment and that was what the fight was about. JW's buddies weren't gonna let LS take a guy home with her....
 

Ixchel13

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I don't think akh's analysis would be complete without pointing to the actions of the last people seen with Lauren to explain why they drew the most attention as POI. Given all that has come out, I think there's a good chance that DM is responsible for her disappearance, but the person who dragged her home semi-conscious and the people who sent her off stumbling into the night barefoot without a phone no doubt bear some of the responsibility even if that's the case. I can't help but wonder, had the guys at 5N been more open and cooperative, would the investigation have led elsewhere? When you refuse to answer questions because you are obviously covering for something, no doubt people are going to focus on getting those answers and figuring out what it is that is being covered up that would outweigh finding a missing girl.

I also remember the time someone claiming to be JR posted here about believing Lauren had been 'abducted' (Deleted because it wasn't clear whether it was JR or someone trolling) and the statement from JR, more than a year or so after her disappearance that he thought he saw someone lurking in the shadows. It seems more sinister now, doesn't it....

totally agree
 

AbbeyR

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Not so sure about that. Do you have a source to confirm? Seems to me like they were blocked from entering her apartment and that was what the fight was about. JW's buddies weren't gonna let LS take a guy home with her....

Yes, check out the Lohud article with the interview with the private investigators, or if it's offline, go back - it was cited a million times here. Speculation may have been otherwise, but according to the people who were actually there and the people who viewed the tapes, the guys were by the elevator. They thought CR was acting aggressively and inappropriately. They said something like "Dude, you'd better take her home". He told them to *advertiser censored** off, and they got in a fight. CR then took Lauren back in the elevator, she fell in the lobby, and he picked her up and dragged her out of the building.
 

Ixchel13

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The question for me is: Was LS blocked from entering her apartment that night?

CR tried to take her home and couldn't for whatever reason. So he then took her home to his place and he says he passed out. So MB who doesn't really know her takes her to JR's. JR says he tried to get her to stay. If they are all telling the truth then I go back to her trying to gain entry to her own apartment.... that is when things went wrong. Why couldn't she get into her own apartment?

But then we have the mysterious phone call. One placed to DR and another placed to an unknown individual. Why have LE not released who that individual is?

So my next question is: Could DM have been acquainted with any of the PsOI?

yes, I think DM knew the bar manager witness, who may very well also be a POI.

In reference to above post by Paul, it's true, the POIs may not have actually killed Lauren, but their actions were criminal, IMO. She and her escort were assaulted outside of her apt. Why would Lauren enter her apt building so late at night if she didn't want in her apartment? Any other suggestion is ludicrous! It then follows, if she had been allowed in, she would be alive today. IMO, even more than drugs, these people involved are lying about the way that their actions must have caused their friend to be snatched out of thin air.

Getting pretty sick of the oh the're young, don't know any better, how unfortunate for everyone, etc. for example the recent case of some frat boys going into a frenzy during hazing, fuelled by booze and drugs, and they beat a kid with baseball bats and threw him down the stairs, killing him. IMO, the same type of frenzied hysteria took over Lauren's boyfriend's friends.

It is sad and unfortunate for everyone when people throw their lives away but even when and if someone else is convicted of this, it doesn't take away the perfidy of these young adults.
 

PaulR

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Getting pretty sick of the oh the're young, don't know any better, how unfortunate for everyone, etc. for example the recent case of some frat boys going into a frenzy during hazing, fuelled by booze and drugs, and they beat a kid with baseball bats and threw him down the stairs, killing him. IMO, the same type of frenzied hysteria took over Lauren's boyfriend's friends.

I do not think it is the same thing at all. I get that many here have suspected the kids have had something to do with her murder since 2011 but trying to blame them - and comparing them to actual murderers who brutally beat a kid with baseball bats - years later when it seems increasingly likely that Lauren was killed by DM, seems like trying to make yourself feel better at the expense of others.
 

1&2&3

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Whenever this forum pops up in New Posts, I come to check it out. I followed it closely the first year plus.

As I recall, CR and Lauren did make it to the floor of her apartment. However, she didn't have her key and her roommate was not in.
 

CoolJ

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Yes, check out the Lohud article with the interview with the private investigators, or if it's offline, go back - it was cited a million times here. Speculation may have been otherwise, but according to the people who were actually there and the people who viewed the tapes, the guys were by the elevator. They thought CR was acting aggressively and inappropriately. They said something like "Dude, you'd better take her home". He told them to *advertiser censored** off, and they got in a fight. CR then took Lauren back in the elevator, she fell in the lobby, and he picked her up and dragged her out of the building.

Yes I am well aware of the interview with the PI's. That doesn't make it clear cut for me. Why did they go to her apartment only to turn around and leave?
 

Mahouston69

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Whenever this forum pops up in New Posts, I come to check it out. I followed it closely the first year plus.

As I recall, CR and Lauren did make it to the floor of her apartment. However, she didn't have her key and her roommate was not in.
And it was during her attempt to get her roommate from the apartment on the same floor, that CR was punched for .. whatever reason..and he was told to leave. Lauren left with him.

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akh

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And it was during her attempt to get her roommate from the apartment on the same floor, that CR was punched for .. whatever reason..and he was told to leave. Lauren left with him.

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I don't recall anything about a missing key or roommate unavailable. I don't think that is common knowledge or a normal part of the narrative because I think I'd remember that.

Is there a link to that anywhere?
 

1&2&3

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I don't recall anything about a missing key or roommate unavailable. I don't think that is common knowledge or a normal part of the narrative because I think I'd remember that.

Is there a link to that anywhere?

It is clearly stated in the beginning of this case. You might try search to find it. I don't have the link after this long, however, remember exactly the scenario.
 
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