IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

I have to pretty much sit on my hands with what I want to say. I have been doing a lot of reading and research. It seems like SM has stopped or slowed down over recent months and the website for the church is down. I haven't seen anyone other than the pastor say anything anywhere about the loss of the family. I would have thought that being so active in the church some others members may have commented.

As I was learning about the religion, I kind of got the impression that women don't hold much of a position and are rather quiet. It felt controlling to me. This may not be true in all cases though.

O/T and not related to any place or person in general:

I was also amazed at how people seem to worship the church leaders almost on the same level as they worship their God. If they ask questions or say anything that contradicts what their leaders say, they are quickly shot down and ganged up on by fellow members. I'm making this statement in general, not necessarily towards this church. It was just what I saw from looking at various church FB pages. I also noticed a lot of judgement towards others that don't share the same beliefs.

I understand that people are passionate about their religion and their individual place of worship. There is nothing wrong with that and spirituality is a important component in a lot of peoples lives.

There have been so many scandals though in the church and it appears that one of the biggest problems a long with cover up, is people are taught not to question their elders. Not all people that preach are necessarily in it for the right reasons.

Ok, I'm done reading about different religions now. I've had enough. I just needed to rant a little bit and get that off my chest.
I went to a church that's pretty much how you describe. It was very Bible-oriented (at first) and people's lives were centered around the church, even socially. That I see nothing wrong with since we as humans are naturally drawn to people who are most similar to us - people who share the same beliefs, values, interests, etc. But, I became cautious and eventually broke from that church when the church became centered on venerating the distinct leaders, who had begun to veer from Biblical teachings, and certain people who seemed to have a lot of influence with the preachers because of their generosity in the church with their money and possessions. When I became suspicious and did some research on the church, I learned of a lot of immorality (including rapes and child molestation) and corruption within the ministry and among the lay people. So, I do understand what you're saying.

However, those things do not go in all churches, and I hate to speculate about a church I know nothing about. Even the discussions on the end times I don't find alarming, since the Bible does address the end times and so most churches do discuss it to some extent, usually pointing out the signs mentioned in the Bible for the purpose of encouraging church members to be faithful but not for the purpose of predicting when the end will come (which the Bible clearly notes that no man knows).

Some interesting "coincidences" have been pointed out here about religious events and the timing of death for these 3 people. But, if this was a murder-suicide connected with religious doctrine, why did only members from one family die? Would not other members of the same church commit suicide at the same time?

There's another angle I'd like to consider. It also focuses on the family's religion, but from a different perspective. First, I wonder whose Bible was found near the creek where the family members drowned. Most people write their name inside their Bible, so it would be interesting to know whether the Bible belonged to the Clutters or to someone else. If it does belong to the Clutters, that certainly wouldn't rule out the murder-suicide scenario. But, my thought is ... what if the Clutters had started talking to one of their neighbors about the Bible and even invited the neighbor to a church service, and that neighbor was offended. There are people who are hostile toward religious people today, just because they deem them odd if they are seen leaving for church with Bible in hand - and they would especially be deemed odd if they were seen leaving for church every day of the week - and because they may act differently, speak differently, dress differently, etc. Were the strange and unexplainable things happening in the neighborhood, mentioned by the pastor, things that someone was doing to harass the Clutter family because they were perceived as different?

One aspect of a triple homicide I find doubtful is one person, even a big strong man, overpowering both a woman and a 10-year-old boy at the same time. A scenario I can imagine would be if the death of the boy occurred separately from the death of the mother and baby. Since people noted the boy liked to talk to people about his church and invited them to attend, I wonder if he approached a neighbor in such a way and the neighbor responded violently. Maybe the man took the boy to the creek, stripped him and then performed a "baptism" in mockery. After the boy was dead, he could've gone to the Clutters' apartment and told Jamie that her son had an accident in the park. When they got to the creek and Jamie tried to reach her son, the neighbor overpowered her - especially easy since she was carrying the baby. He first stripped and "baptized" the mother and lastly the baby.

Just MOO :moo:
 
No, you are not alone...my hinky meter has been humming everytime I see the pastor quoted...and he has had alot to say. Where are the comments from the Father's side of the family...you know, the family that they moved to be near. Haven't read any...just pastor and one neighbor.
Could be that the pastor was selected to be spokesperson since the family is so devastated. In the case of Whitney Heichel's disappearance and subsequent murder, a church leader acted as spokesperson. There were people who thought that was hinky at first, but he was very sincere and represented the family well at a time when it was difficult for them to address the media. Church members in that case were instrumental in finding clues that led to Whitney's body and to her killer.
 
I have to pretty much sit on my hands with what I want to say. I have been doing a lot of reading and research. It seems like SM has stopped or slowed down over recent months and the website for the church is down. I haven't seen anyone other than the pastor say anything anywhere about the loss of the family. I would have thought that being so active in the church some other members may have commented.

As I was learning about the religion, I kind of got the impression that women don't hold much of a position and are rather quiet. It felt controlling to me. This may not be true in all cases though.

Bolding is mine - there was also a 12-year age difference in the couple - he is 47, she was 35. That also might serve to make a woman think she was "less than", especially if she was depressed.
 
It makes sense to me that the pastor is acting as spokesperson, but I also believe that the reason he has more to say is because the church has been mentioned by name.

The picture we have been given so far, is of a family that did not interact with the rest of society, unless they were out preaching and trying to get others to come to the church. Preaching conspiracy theory to instill fear in others and making others feel as though they are not going to be saved if they don't belong to a certain faith or believe all of the teaching of a certain "evangelist" is IMO controlling.

My further research of the teaching of the church has revealed what I noted above and also IMO has a element in this crime. The mother could have been having religious delusions and it wasn't treated outside of the church. If she was and they tried to "save" her, we most likely will not hear about it. A third party could also be involved that also had religious delusions or just had nefarious reasons for wanting to get rid of this mother and her children.

When tox results are released (which I hope they are) a third party situation that was mentioned by the poster above may easily be ruled out. I don't see someone overpowering them at the park either individually or together and then stripping them naked in broad daylight. That's a lot of staging to do in daylight in a park.

I think they were either dumped there and it was staged or it was a murder/suicide situation.
 
One signal failure of the "spokespastor" phenomenon is the Holly Bobo case. There, media access to the family, which might have resulted in a continuance of national interest in the matter, was initially stymied by a guy who would say absolutely nothing of substance.
 
No, you are not alone...my hinky meter has been humming everytime I see the pastor quoted...and he has had alot to say. Where are the comments from the Father's side of the family...you know, the family that they moved to be near. Haven't read any...just pastor and one neighbor.

I am pretty convinced the "family" they moved to be closer to was the church family. I had been puzzling over the two different stories of why they moved there and that is the answer I have come up with.

Without going into my personal thoughts about this church, yeah, I find the pastor involvement with this story to be hinky. He has an awful lot to say and MOO

1) He is doing damage control in regards to how this story may reflect on the church or its teachings.

2) He is enjoying his opportunity to speak to the press and using this tragedy as his forum to do so.

again MOO
 
as to the husband contacting the pastor before 911, it simply tells me the level of dependence this family felt on the pastor for guidance and this church. I get the impression that this family did almost nothing independently without the church (ie. pastor) being consulted first.
 
Don't know if this this story has already been posted (sorry if it had)
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today...s-remember-woman-kids-found-slain-in-indiana/

Talks some about religion and most people quoted didn't want their names used (even though it's not really anything that is scandalous in any way).

Thanks! From your link:

He [neighbor] had remained in touch with the family after their move, calling them after a break-in to the Clutters’ home in January. The home is currently vacant. Days before the bodies were discovered, he said he had intended to call the family.

“I just had a weird feeling,” he said.

Before the family moved, the neighbor said, Michael Clutter had asked him to buy a few items he had for sale, sharing for the first time he had been out of work since being laid off from the Westport Shipyards more than a year earlier. The family still owns a home in Aberdeen.

“That’s how they kept to themselves — I didn’t even know,” the man said.
 
Mother of woman found dead in creek speaks about daughter and grandchildren

http://www.wdrb.com/story/21657563/...creek-speaks-about-daughter-and-grandchildren

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (WDRB)---New information about the deaths of a New Albany mother and her children isn't sitting well with the mother of 35-year-old Jaime Clutter.

"They're sound Christians and there's no way. Someone's trying to cover something up. We don't believe none of it," says Carrie Pink, who lives in Aberdeen, Washington. ...............

Floyd County prosecutor Keith Henderson says someone drowned the kids and the cause of death for Jaime is pending.

All three were found unclothed. A baby harness with a Bible inside was hanging from the limb of a tree. Their clothes were also found scattered nearby. ............

Although they haven't come to any conclusions yet, Henderson says they haven't ruled out murder-suicide.

Jaime Clutter's family says they still believe someone else is responsible.

"There's no way. We know our daughter too well for that to even have taken place, " says Carrie Pink. ................

Jaime Clutter's mother is hoping for answers herself.

"There's evil spirits out there that are trying to cover something up. That's just how it is . Our daughter is just the best with her children. There's no way," says Carrie Pink.

Police say they aren't sure if Clutter suffered from postpartum depression, but her mom told WDRB's Tamara Evans that she believes she didn't, and that she was excited about the birth of baby Katelyn. ...............

More at link, along with some interesting comments...
 
^^^^^WOW at some of the comments!

...and just MOO, but one of the comments describes Jaime's normal type of dress as a long skirt, which is quite modest. I have a great deal of trouble believing she took her children's clothing off or her own to end up like this. A modest person would never want to be found naked in a creek.
 
I found another article with a little more information:

http://thedailyworld.com/sections/n...ldren-drown-mother’s-cause-death-unknown.html

The coroner indicated the children likely died between 7 a.m. and 5 p.m. Wednesday.
I haven't seen this stated in any of the other articles yet, so I kind of question where that time frame came from and how they would have determined that.

Joyce Smith, wife of Bishop Ronald Smith, knew Jaime Clutter most of her life. She grew up in Aberdeen and attended The World of Praise United Pentecostal Church until the family’s move to Indiana, Smith said.

“She was very sweet, she ran our projector,” she said of Jaime Clutter.

Ronald Smith had been Jaime Clutter’s pastor for most of her life, but when he was elevated to bishop last August, her father, Bill Pink, became the church’s pastor.

Jaime and Michael met at a singles convention, and he moved here from Indiana to be with her when they married, Smith said.

Smith remembered the family’s recent joy when they discovered they were expecting baby Katelyn.

“They prayed for a baby girl and they got one,” Smith said with a smile.

Recently, Brandon Clutter had called the Smiths to share his excitement over his growth in his faith at his new church.
 
So the kids likely died 2-4 hours after the father says he left for work. (articles above say he left for work at 4:50 am. That is a very specific time.)

As far as the Bible left nearby, it could point to a suicide. Or it could point to a religious, remorseful or vengeful killer.

Say a religious person killed them all. Would that person not want to leave a Bible to help soothe their souls? Or perhaps if he/she felt they needed their soul saved? Dispatching them to God, and having their Bible nearby, much like burying them with a Bible. Someone familiar with them would know where her Bible was kept.
 
I have to pretty much sit on my hands with what I want to say. I have been doing a lot of reading and research. It seems like SM has stopped or slowed down over recent months and the website for the church is down. I haven't seen anyone other than the pastor say anything anywhere about the loss of the family. I would have thought that being so active in the church some other members may have commented.

As I was learning about the religion, I kind of got the impression that women don't hold much of a position and are rather quiet. It felt controlling to me. This may not be true in all cases though.

O/T and not related to any place or person in general:

I was also amazed at how people seem to worship the church leaders almost on the same level as they worship their God. If they ask questions or say anything that contradicts what their leaders say, they are quickly shot down and ganged up on by fellow members. I'm making this statement in general, not necessarily towards this church. It was just what I saw from looking at various church FB pages. I also noticed a lot of judgement towards others that don't share the same beliefs.

I understand that people are passionate about their religion and their individual place of worship. There is nothing wrong with that and spirituality is a important component in a lot of peoples lives.

There have been so many scandals though in the church and it appears that one of the biggest problems along with cover up, is people are taught not to question their elders. Not all people that preach are necessarily in it for the right reasons.

Ok, I'm done reading about different religions now. I've had enough. I just needed to rant a little bit and get that off my chest.

Being molested as a child by a reverend I agree with you.
 
I'm really trying to keep an open mind and explore the possibility that a third person, was responsible for the death of this family.

I am having trouble with this scenario though. From this MSM article:
http://www.wbiw.com/state/archives/2013/03/coroner_bodies_found_in_creek.php

Clutter's wife and kids were home before he left for work at 4:50 a.m. Wednesday, Nichols said.
"The mother was feeding the baby. His boy had heard them up and ran in there and wanted to tell his dad goodbye, he hugged him and kissed him," Nichols said. "The wife followed him to the door and he told her, 'Don't forget to lock the door.' They didn't live in a great neighborhood."

Was the door locked when he came home?

Nichols also said it was unusual for Jamie Clutter to leave their home without telling Michael where she was going.
"She had never done that before without calling or texting him letting him know that she's going to be gone for a while and where she's going," Nichols said.

So did she never leave the house to take the kids to the park, or go outside with the boy to play without calling or texting him? Did she have bible studies with anyone in the neighborhood and not tell her husband? It sounds like it would be out of character for her not to tell her husband and/or the pastor if she was sharing the word with others. It certainly seems like the family took extensive safety precautions.

Here is the map again of the park where they were found.
[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Binford+Park,+New+Albany,+IN&hl=en&ll=38.30217,-85.825045&spn=0.002506,0.003819&sll=41.082613,-85.1509&sspn=0.230836,0.488892&oq=binford+park&t=h&hq=Binford+Park,+New+Albany,+IN&z=18"]Binford Park, New Albany, IN - Google Maps[/ame]

Notice how close the backyards of the houses are to the creek and how some of them are on the creek. I just find it hard to imagine someone pulling something like that off, at that location in broad daylight. There were no signs of trauma to the bodies. If someone was trying to drown you, you would fight. Then there is that whole other element of them being naked and the clothes laying near by that has to be explained. LE didn't mention that the clothes were torn and if they were forced off of them, again you would think there would be signs of trauma on the body.

The family, pastor and others that I have seen comment seem so insistent that the mother or father wouldn't do anything like this. I just had to try and explore that possibility.

Can anyone think of any other scenarios that would involve a outside person?
 
Being molested as a child by a reverend I agree with you.

That's horrible. I'm so sorry that happened to you. Sending you hugs.....

It makes me very angry when I hear about people in positions of power or authority abusing children. We have to/we can, do a better job at protecting them from pedophiles.

"We" meaning in general.
 
So the kids likely died 2-4 hours after the father says he left for work. (articles above say he left for work at 4:50 am. That is a very specific time.)

As far as the Bible left nearby, it could point to a suicide. Or it could point to a religious, remorseful or vengeful killer.

Say a religious person killed them all. Would that person not want to leave a Bible to help soothe their souls? Or perhaps if he/she felt they needed their soul saved? Dispatching them to God, and having their Bible nearby, much like burying them with a Bible. Someone familiar with them would know where her Bible was kept.

BBM: I'm just curious how you are coming up with that time frame.

As for the person you decribed, I am having a hard time figuring out who could have pulled this off as I noted in my previous post, unless it was the father.
 
Nichols also said it was unusual for Jamie Clutter to leave their home without telling Michael where she was going.

"She had never done that before without calling or texting him letting him know that she's going to be gone for a while and where she's going," Nichols said.

http://www.wbiw.com/state/archives/2013/03/coroner_bodies_found_in_creek.php

Here it says the Dad left for work at 4:50 am.

I found another article with a little more information:

http://thedailyworld.com/sections/n...ldren-drown-mother’s-cause-death-unknown.html


I haven't seen this stated in any of the other articles yet, so I kind of question where that time frame came from and how they would have determined that.

Here it says the kids died between 7 am and 5 pm.

BBM: I'm just curious how you are coming up with that time frame.

As for the person you decribed, I am having a hard time figuring out who could have pulled this off as I noted in my previous post, unless it was the father.

My math may be off a little on the end time.
 

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