In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

Discussion in 'Caylee Anthony 2 years old' started by Bev, Oct 24, 2008.

  1. Tulessa

    Tulessa Well-Known Member

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    Thank you J for merging. :)
     


  2. Tulessa

    Tulessa Well-Known Member

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  3. Jolynna

    Jolynna Well-Known Member

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    BBM

    It isn't the warm environment that prevents the formation of adipocere in the above situation. It is the lack of oxygen and the bugs.
    Putrefactive organisms, of which Clostridium welchii is most
    active, are important, and adipocere formation is facilitated by post-mortem invasion of the tissues by commensal bacteria.
    A warm, moist, anaerobic environment favours adipocere formation

    http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:iVK2LmuGbREJ:www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/Lecture%2520Notes%2520in%2520Forensic%2520Medicine%2520Derrick%2520Pounder%252048pages.pdf+warm+moist+airtight+environment+corpse&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Clostridium: A group of anaerobic bacteria (bacteria that thrive in the absence of oxygen). There are 100+ species of Clostridium. They include, for examples, Clostridium difficile, Clostridium perfringens (also called Clostridium welchii), and Clostridium botulinum.
    http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6539

    This is the key to adipocere formation; the bacteria that convert the body's fat to adipocere are anaerobic. These bacteria digest body fat, excreting adipocere and ammonial gases. They do not work well when exposed to air, which is why adipocere rarely forms on body parts exposed to air. Another important factor is the limiting of scavengers and insect larvae. http://www.angelfire.com/wa/zzaran/Adipocere.html

    An exception is provided by the formation of adipocere under air-tight conditions. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8908987

    As far as Caylee's body being the trunk longer than 2.6 days, adipocere may form within days or months (The Cadaver Dog Handbook page 123 http://books.google.com/books?id=WT... individuals more likely to adipocere&f=false)


    Also, keep in mind the 3 plastic bags and the hot humid climate. Those would speed up the onset of putrefaction. Children decay faster than adults. Toddlers also have more fat per pound of body weight. (That children are composed of more fat & decompose faster is on page 123 of the above link.) Factor in an airtight trunk for an idyllic environment for adipocere formation.
    A high environmental humidity will enhance putrefaction.
    Putrefaction is optimal at temperatures ranging between 70-100oF (21-38oC) and is retarded when the temperature falls below 50oF (10oC) or when it exceeds 100oF.

    It tends to be more rapid in children than in adults.

    Whereas warm temperatures enhance putrefaction, intense heat produces "heat fixation" of tissues and inactivates autolytic enzymes with a resultant delay in the onset and course of decomposition.Heavy clothing and other coverings, by retaining body heat,will speed up putrefaction. Rapid putrefactive changes may been seen in corpses left in a room which is well heated, or in a bed with an electric blanket. Injuries to the body surface promote putrefaction by providing portals of entry for bacteria and the associated blood provides an excellent medium for bacterial growth.


    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf
     
  4. Jolynna

    Jolynna Well-Known Member

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  5. TakeNote

    TakeNote Mother to little post it my boy wonder & Founding

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    thanks JBean :)
     
  6. Jolynna

    Jolynna Well-Known Member

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    I am going to quote myself because my sentence in red was miswritten, wrong and needs correcting. The bacteria necessary to convert bodly fat into adipocere are anaerobic. They don't do well when exposed to air. Oxygen and bugs PREVENT the formation of adipocere NOT LACK of oxygen. Adipocere bacteria thrive without air. That is why adipocere is often found on drowning victims.
     
  7. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris Well-Known Member

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    She has to have dumped her on the 18th judging by the ping maps, so assume that the speed of decomp was sped up by the heat / bags etc.
     
  8. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator

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    The "Dead folk and decomp" thread is closed so I am posting this here for reference purposes...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/03/magazine/crime-scene-forensics-dead-men-talking.html?pagewanted=7
     
  9. watcher9

    watcher9 Well-Known Member

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    Harmony2,
    Thank you for posting this.
    This article called Crime-Scene Forensics; Dead Men Talking is 9 pages long and is an excellent read on the body farm and some of the cases they have helped solve.
    It will be fascinating to listen to the experts when/if this case comes to trial.
     
  10. JBean

    JBean Retired WS Administrator

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    bump for reference
     
  11. websurfer

    websurfer Active Member

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    i always thought she threw some trash in the dumpster but by the time the car was towed?
    Too late to check the dumpster...:twocents:
     
  12. wenwe4

    wenwe4 Well-Known Member

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    Folks - check out posts #251 and forward .....phenomenal work done on this thread! As we are now looking back toward TOD and dates of disposal . . . this will become quite relevant info in the upcoming days in the trial.
     
  13. Quiche

    Quiche Well-Known Member

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    From your article quote, this stands out as a possible reason the lawn died in the Anthony's back yard.

    Quote: The ''stain'' left by a body's volatile acids, which also suppresses plant life around it, can last for up to two years, leaving a kind of phantom fingerprint in the earth.


    :cool:
     
  14. logicalgirl

    logicalgirl Peace Hawk

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    No, I believe because of the bug activity, the testimony was that it was 2.5 to 3 days maximum in the trunk. The decomp process in Florida would have been much faster because of the outside temperature heat.
     
  15. logicalgirl

    logicalgirl Peace Hawk

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    This is something that I have wondered about also because why else did FCA borrow the shovel.
    But, and forgive me, the testimony was that by day 3, there was enough decomp fluid that some stained the car trunk - so even after two days, in the Florida heat, excelerated by the bagging, moving Caylee's body from the trunk to the backyard by the pool and then to the playhouse would have been - well - difficult.....

    The testimony was that the experts said the little body was in the car 2.5 to 3 days, which was long enough to have the smell of decomp in the trunk...forever. So.....:waitasec:
     
  16. Spice

    Spice Active Member

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    I remember reading for sure that LE quoted 5 to 7 days due to the stages of the larvae and flies. I'll look for it, but I remember that specifically because it shocked me that she could drive around with her for that long.
     
  17. Desdemona

    Desdemona * * * * Desi * * * *

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    The bug expert (entomologist N. Haskell) testified Caylee's body was moved twice, and remained in the trunk for up to five (5) days.

    Haskell estimated the body remained in the car trunk for up to five days, long enough for biochemical changes that attract the gnats, before being moved directly to the woods, likely in June or early July 2008.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/11/us-crime-anthony-idUSTRE75956Z20110611


    The 2.6 days post-mortem decomp estimate (PMI) was based on the air testing done by Dr. Vass.

    Vass's report: http://bit.ly/XwgBfo

    IMO, not necessarily that Caylee's body spent 2.6 days in the trunk, but that the chemicals in the air sampled from the trunk matched the levels of typical decomp at 2.6 days post-mortem.

    HTH
     
  18. ZsaZsa

    ZsaZsa Well-Known Member

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    Here is his testimony- see post #17 and 18. Dr Haskell says 3-5 days.
    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139823"]Dr Neal Haskell testimony (Entomologist) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
     
  19. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator

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    page 12 of that report dealt with the (VFA) butyric acid scraped from the carpet of the tire cover...

    [​IMG]
    http://bit.ly/XwgBfo

    I will bump some of these threads up for discussion...
     
  20. logicalgirl

    logicalgirl Peace Hawk

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    Yup - it would make sense that Dr. Vass's words are what are burned into my brain. And to add, Dr. Huntington for the Defense said there was no body in the trunk at all.
    So what exactly are you saying - 3 - 5 or 2.5 to 3 days? Because to me it looks like you are flying both ways.

    Nice you to hop in and comment - you will note I was responding to Spice whose post said 5-7 days.
     

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