In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

Discussion in 'Caylee Anthony 2 years old' started by Bev, Oct 24, 2008.

  1. logicalgirl

    logicalgirl Peace Hawk

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    It's a good theory but I don't think it jives with her cell phone records or the computer records for those two days. I think they show fairly closely where she was and what she was doing - she was home until late afternoon the first day and with Tony the second...
     


  2. AZlawyer

    AZlawyer Verified Attorney

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    Sun June 15 7:35 pm-Mon June 16 4:15 pm: Near Anthony home

    Mon June 16 4:30 pm-Tues June 17 2:15 pm: Near Tony's apartment
    (but note that Tony supposedly didn't see her until closer to 8 pm on the 16th)

    Tues June 17 2:30 pm-4:05 pm: Near Anthony home
    IIRC this coincides with activity on both Anthony desktop and laptop (likely transferring files from one to the other).

    Tues June 17 4:30-5:30 pm: In the area of Jay Blanchard Park
    I think this was one of the places Casey had a "perspective idea" that Caylee might have been...
    THEN NO PINGS FOR THREE HOURS...still at the park?? Who knows...

    Tues June 17 8:30 pm-Wed June 18 2:15 pm: Near Tony's apartment

    Wed June 18 2:45-3:45 pm: Near Anthony home
     
  3. Oldsoul2

    Oldsoul2 New Member

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  4. logicalgirl

    logicalgirl Peace Hawk

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    Tony didn't see her until 8PM on the 16th? :waitasec: I sorta remember that video store clip was quite a bit earlier than that....when they rented those gross movies...
    I wonder if she had to lurk around waiting for George to leave on the 17th? Would he have left by 2:30?
     
  5. AZlawyer

    AZlawyer Verified Attorney

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    The video store clip was at 7:58 pm.

    George IIRC said he generally left the house on work days at 2:30 pm.
     
  6. Desdemona

    Desdemona * * * * Desi * * * *

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    Like you, I was merely speculating. Therefore I respectfully demur on your suggestion to go hunting for proof. IMO the bags at the remains scene looked pretty heavy-duty to my eyes, especially considering they had been exposed to the elements for six months. That's JMO.

    [​IMG]

    I would not consider disposing of a murdered toddler's body "everyday use." So it would seem logical to me that a killer intending to dispose of a victim's body in a trash bag would choose a strong one. Just speculating.

    I also don't recall whether the evidence indicated the decomp fluid in the trunk leaked from the opening of the bag(s), a rip/hole/tear in the bag(s), seepage due to bottom-seam failure, or by some other means.

    And I agree that we don't know for sure exactly how and when FCA used all these items to contain, conceal, transport, and/or dispose of Caylee's body.

    That's about all I have to contribute to this discussion, so no more "popping in" for me on this one!

    :twocents:


    Image: http://media.trb.com/media/photo/2011-06/62254021.jpg
     
  7. Justiceseeker35

    Justiceseeker35 Active Member

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    There was a multi hour gap on the 16th where cell pings put her near Tonys apt but not with him which leads me to think she was waiting somewhere with Caylee until they could meet up and she's thinking, what am I gonna do with this kid? There are a ton of parks and lakes near his place. I'm also starting to believe she did very little planning before and after mostly just winging it. Not thinking of consequences. We only assume she double bagged her. Maybe she bagged her, it leaked so bagged her later and added the canvas bag to carry her. I would think the discovery of a major leak would prompt her to dispose of it all quickly.
     
  8. logicalgirl

    logicalgirl Peace Hawk

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    Hmmm - you may have misunderstood some of my comments....which was re the bags - would the Anthony's routinely buy heavy duty garbage bags for their garbage? It's not like they have to carry it very far. I don't buy the more expensive heavy duty ones because our dumpster is just behind our building and we have special orange ones for leaves and things like that. And I doubt FCA specifically bought heavy duty ones for Caylee. I do have tie bags but they are just regular ones.

    The whole conversation was about leakage vs time in the trunk as we were doing speculation from 2.6 days to 5 or 6 and the stain in the trunk. Plastic is not bio-degradeable at any strength, so despite being torn apart by animal activity - it should still be in very good shape.

    I was hoping someone else would try the experiment....one experiment does not a stastic make..:floorlaugh:
     
  9. logicalgirl

    logicalgirl Peace Hawk

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    Yes, I remember him saying that - but I think she would be lurking for a bit - she might not know for sure he was working that day?

    Thanks for the video time - saves me looking it up. Details, eh? I remembered it as being more like 6:30. Wonder if they or she went for something to eat first?
     
  10. IfIMay

    IfIMay New Member

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    I use heavy duty bags for my garbage (and trash) because I don't want leakage into my garbage cans. I don't have to take any further that George did.
     
  11. wonders

    wonders My opinion's may not alway's be right but they are

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    I have really enjoyed this discussion even if I don't participate. When all of you compare note's, memories and facts it make's for a very interesting read. I hope other's will try the same experiment and bring their results here to compare each result as we may learn something that was never thought of before.
    Thanks everybody.
     
  12. Desdemona

    Desdemona * * * * Desi * * * *

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    I did not misunderstand your comments. What type of bags were confiscated from the Anthony home, and what type of bags Caylee's remains were in, is information that if specified in the docs (which I do not recall), can most likely be found searching online.

    Many of us will recall a video from late summer/fall of 2008 showing George emerging from garage to curbside via his driveway, carrying out trash bags with yellow ties that IMO look similar to the ones found on Suburban Dr. in Dec. My guess would be that LE/SA considered the remains-scene bags and the Anthonys' similar-looking bags a match.

    ;) Guess. No link.

    Correct, trash bags for the most part are not biodegradable. I noted that the ones found with Caylee's remains appeared to be heavy-duty in part because they were still in such good shape after six months out in the elements. I have seen with my own eyes that plastic bags do degrade somewhat with physical wear-and-tear and lengthy exposure to the elements. (Plastic bags in the ocean break down rather quickly, for instance.) After six months outdoors, IMO a typical lightweight kitchen-type trash bag would not look as pristine as those in the evidence photos -- JMO of course.

    It also made sense to me that a person intending to contain a body in a trash bag would probably not do so if the only bags available (i.e. in the home) were thin or lightweight bags. Again, JMO. Speculating.

    I have no horse in this race, LOL. My post was intended to augment the discussion, nothing more. I have no need to prove my opinion that they appear to have been heavy-duty bags, or else I'd be searching all over the Internet trying to nail it down.

    As has been mentioned, we do not have accurate information regarding Caylee's weight, what type of bags were used, whether or how or how long/far they were carried with her body inside, whether they were carried inside the laundry bag, whether they were doubled immediately or later, when or whether they were placed in the laundry bag and/or trunk, what the conditions were inside the trunk when the bags were inside, etc. Even Vass and Haskell gave nonspecific ranges: 0.7 to 2.6 days for the decomp leakage, and 3 to 5 days spent in the trunk based on insect activity, respectively IIRC.

    It's admirable to be curious and want to figure out what happened to Caylee IMO. But not knowing what the variables might be, IMO it would be hard to achieve a reliable result or arrive at a definitive conclusion. That is only my feeling; I do not judge those who feel differently or wish to explore possibilities through experimenting and speculating.

    Respectfully, I will not be discussing this topic any further for the time being, so please don't consider me rude for not replying.

    Thanks for understanding.
     
  13. Jolynna

    Jolynna Well-Known Member

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    Duct tape + ONE bag + a car trunk would achieve "fool-proof" suffocation.

    However, even a heavy duty bag with something big & heavy inside of it stuck in a trunk where there were a bunch of coat hangers and other junk to bump against can tear. Even a small body would swell up and leak a LOT of fluid if left where it is hot and moist (like in a plastic bag overnight on a humid Florida night and into the next afternoon). More bags and the blanket might have been to keep the result--which could have leaked all over the bottom of the initial bag Caylee was put in--off of Casey.

    However, it all went down, I have never doubted what Jeff Ashton told the poster when he signed her book--that Casey used the duct tape to kill Caylee.
    moo
     
  14. logicalgirl

    logicalgirl Peace Hawk

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    Ay-yi- yi - it was a simple experiment I did to see if the heavy centered weight of a child would hold in a garbage - I wasn't expecting a long discourse on the levels of garbage bags and whether or not they are biodegradeable! what value would my own experiment have to me (because I was the curious one and wanted to know for my own sake) to use a cheap flimsy kitchen variety bag to test?

    Good grief - so much for me and posting my experiments!:banghead:
     
  15. wonders

    wonders My opinion's may not alway's be right but they are

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    Ohhhhh! I love your experiment's, please don't stop if something strike's your fancy.
     
  16. Tulessa

    Tulessa Well-Known Member

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    Keep up the good work LG :)
     
  17. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator

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    This is the way I have always viewed it and it is only my opinion: There was butyric acid found on the carpet scrapings which indicated Caylee laid deceased on the tire cover for 0.7 to 2.6 days. However, there was no adipocere found in those scrapings. It was found on the paper towels in the white trash bag from Tony's apartment. Conversely, there was no butyric acid found on the paper towels. Research has shown that adipocere takes longer to form but can form in as little as days. The adipocere on the paper towels indicates, in my view, that the deceased body was handled after a while and in handling it the adipocere got on the handler's hands and then paper towels were used to wipe it off the hands. My belief is that the bagging took place inside the trunk after or sometime during the 0.7 to 2.6 days. Some do not see the outline of a body on the tire cover, but I do see it, and I don't think a leak from a torn garbage bag would have made that outline. Furthermore, I do think the bagged remains stayed a little longer in the trunk. The entomology findings also support this contention because coffin flies are attracted to advanced decomposition. The double bagging and heat in the trunk would have exacerbated the decomposition.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=WT... individuals more likely to adipocere&f=false

    [​IMG]

    adiopocere research
    http://pawsoflife-org.k9handleracademy.com/Library/HRD/Ubelaker_2011.pdf

    Moreover, research has found the following:

    The borrowed shovel, indentation in the dirt in the Anthony back yard and then disposal "close to home", in my opinion, show that the research information held true in this case. When the backyard burial did not work out I think the remains went back into the trunk until another site was found. IMO all the dots connect and the sequence of events is quite clear.
     
  18. Justiceseeker35

    Justiceseeker35 Active Member

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    Very good post and points. This fits along with my theory of a rage killing
    and leaving the body uncovered in the trunk for one night/morning, heading to the house next afternoon to do the minimum which was cover her in one bag. The next day discovery of a leak on the 18th and further decomp prompted her to attempt to borrow the shovel and bury her which caused her to handle the body and paper towels came into play. I doubt she removed it from the trunk at that time. She had to do something to stem the leak so further bagging and place her in the canvas bag. At which point she ditched the car at tony's and drove his truck on the 19th to go apartment hunting. Then Friday the 20th she made another stop near her home which was when I believe when she dropped the remains off at the wood site after she had all Thursday to think about where to leave the body. Partied with Tony all weekend not a care in the world..
    I was also thinking today.. it's been slow at work.. that maybe the flurry of calls was a cry for help. Not a "I just killed my kid cry" but.. I seem to recall her telling a friend not sure if it was Annie Downing or Kiomarie that she need to seek professional help that she felt like she was going crazy or something to that effect? Maybe she recognized looking up suffocation and ways to die or kill others is a problem and she was a danger to Caylee? Or am I just reaching here and she was just trying to offload her kid and that's why she flurry called?
     
  19. cv1964

    cv1964 New Member

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    Very close to my theory. I think she placed her in the trunk unwrapped. Then borrowed the shovel, not to bury her but used it to move her from the trunk into the bags. I think she hosed the shovel off in the backyard, hence the dogs hitting. Since the decomposition was in the liner, even bagging and disposing of her baby didn't get rid of the smell as she had hoped. So like she did with caylee, she simply abandoned the car. I think we tend to give her way too much credit here. She simply isn't as crafty as we tend to think she must have been. I think the answer lies in the KISS complex.

    Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
     
  20. Baznme

    Baznme New Member

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    Not to worry. The word "experiment" should have sufficed for anyone. It yields inconclusive results generally but does answer questions. I am always interested in what you have to say......it's "logical" info I'm interested in reading, not the anaylization of what the "biodegradeable" rate is of a plastic bag. At the time she was put in the bag, the bag was new so how that would even factor into whether or not it would hold the weight of a small child 6 months later doesn't even matter. The earlier post above is moot.
     

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