In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

logicalgirl

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no I'm thinking she did the lazyest thing of all and drove all the way near Tony's with the only plan she had to bluff Cindy into taking Caylee off her hands of the evening. When that didn't pan out she pulled off somewhere near Tony's (a place where she typically waits "to get off work at Universal" to "pass Caylee off to her Mom/Zanny" or to simply wait for Tony to get home) with a kid that she didn't have any room for in her Tony's night/life and applied the tape. When she passes out from that fool proof suffocation she placed her in the trunk for the night with no care or thought to her being covered up. The next day she has an "oh crapp" moment and decides to run home for bagging and cleaning up. I'm trying to think of the laziest easy way for KC to commit the crime with very little planning.

It's a good theory but I don't think it jives with her cell phone records or the computer records for those two days. I think they show fairly closely where she was and what she was doing - she was home until late afternoon the first day and with Tony the second...
 

AZlawyer

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It's a good theory but I don't think it jives with her cell phone records or the computer records for those two days. I think they show fairly closely where she was and what she was doing - she was home until late afternoon the first day and with Tony the second...

Sun June 15 7:35 pm-Mon June 16 4:15 pm: Near Anthony home

Mon June 16 4:30 pm-Tues June 17 2:15 pm: Near Tony's apartment
(but note that Tony supposedly didn't see her until closer to 8 pm on the 16th)

Tues June 17 2:30 pm-4:05 pm: Near Anthony home
IIRC this coincides with activity on both Anthony desktop and laptop (likely transferring files from one to the other).

Tues June 17 4:30-5:30 pm: In the area of Jay Blanchard Park
I think this was one of the places Casey had a "perspective idea" that Caylee might have been...
THEN NO PINGS FOR THREE HOURS...still at the park?? Who knows...

Tues June 17 8:30 pm-Wed June 18 2:15 pm: Near Tony's apartment

Wed June 18 2:45-3:45 pm: Near Anthony home
 

Oldsoul2

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Sun June 15 7:35 pm-Mon June 16 4:15 pm: Near Anthony home

Mon June 16 4:30 pm-Tues June 17 2:15 pm: Near Tony's apartment
(but note that Tony supposedly didn't see her until closer to 8 pm on the 16th)

Tues June 17 2:30 pm-4:05 pm: Near Anthony home
IIRC this coincides with activity on both Anthony desktop and laptop (likely transferring files from one to the other).

Tues June 17 4:30-5:30 pm: In the area of Jay Blanchard Park
I think this was one of the places Casey had a "perspective idea" that Caylee might have been...
THEN NO PINGS FOR THREE HOURS...still at the park?? Who knows...

Tues June 17 8:30 pm-Wed June 18 2:15 pm: Near Tony's apartment

Wed June 18 2:45-3:45 pm: Near Anthony home
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Sun June 15 7:35 pm-Mon June 16 4:15 pm: Near Anthony home

Mon June 16 4:30 pm-Tues June 17 2:15 pm: Near Tony's apartment
(but note that Tony supposedly didn't see her until closer to 8 pm on the 16th)

IMO Day of Caylees death

Tues June 17 2:30 pm-4:05 pm: Near Anthony home
IIRC this coincides with activity on both Anthony desktop and laptop (likely transferring files from one to the other).

IMO This is the day she put her in the backyard


Tues June 17 4:30-5:30 pm: In the area of Jay Blanchard Park
I think this was one of the places Casey had a "perspective idea" that Caylee might have been...
THEN NO PINGS FOR THREE HOURS...still at the park?? Who knows...

IMO This is the day she was attempting to set up her 'babysitter story' She probably didn't even get out of the car. This I believe was also the day she took Caylee to the woods to bury her...I mean dump her.

Tues June 17 8:30 pm-Wed June 18 2:15 pm: Near Tony's apartment

Wed June 18 2:45-3:45 pm: Near Anthony home
 

logicalgirl

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Sun June 15 7:35 pm-Mon June 16 4:15 pm: Near Anthony home

Mon June 16 4:30 pm-Tues June 17 2:15 pm: Near Tony's apartment
(but note that Tony supposedly didn't see her until closer to 8 pm on the 16th)

Tues June 17 2:30 pm-4:05 pm: Near Anthony home
IIRC this coincides with activity on both Anthony desktop and laptop (likely transferring files from one to the other).

Tues June 17 4:30-5:30 pm: In the area of Jay Blanchard Park
I think this was one of the places Casey had a "perspective idea" that Caylee might have been...
THEN NO PINGS FOR THREE HOURS...still at the park?? Who knows...

Tues June 17 8:30 pm-Wed June 18 2:15 pm: Near Tony's apartment

Wed June 18 2:45-3:45 pm: Near Anthony home

Tony didn't see her until 8PM on the 16th? :waitasec: I sorta remember that video store clip was quite a bit earlier than that....when they rented those gross movies...
I wonder if she had to lurk around waiting for George to leave on the 17th? Would he have left by 2:30?
 

AZlawyer

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Tony didn't see her until 8PM on the 16th? :waitasec: I sorta remember that video store clip was quite a bit earlier than that....when they rented those gross movies...
I wonder if she had to lurk around waiting for George to leave on the 17th? Would he have left by 2:30?

The video store clip was at 7:58 pm.

George IIRC said he generally left the house on work days at 2:30 pm.
 

Desdemona

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Gosh Desdemona - I can always count on you to pop in right behind me with helpful information.
Do we have any information at all that the Anthony's would be using "hefty" garbage bags for everyday use? Maybe you could find a liink that says the ones found on site were heavy duty because I missed that.

Hmm - I have no idea why she is quoted as wieghing 38 lobs....tall for her age?
But this whole conversation started because I was questioning the leaking...and since we don't know if Caylee started out wrapped in a blanket and then in one garbage bag first or why she ended up in two plus a cloth bag.

So I was speculating on different scenarios since no one can tell me for sure.
Like you, I was merely speculating. Therefore I respectfully demur on your suggestion to go hunting for proof. IMO the bags at the remains scene looked pretty heavy-duty to my eyes, especially considering they had been exposed to the elements for six months. That's JMO.

62254021.jpg


I would not consider disposing of a murdered toddler's body "everyday use." So it would seem logical to me that a killer intending to dispose of a victim's body in a trash bag would choose a strong one. Just speculating.

I also don't recall whether the evidence indicated the decomp fluid in the trunk leaked from the opening of the bag(s), a rip/hole/tear in the bag(s), seepage due to bottom-seam failure, or by some other means.

And I agree that we don't know for sure exactly how and when FCA used all these items to contain, conceal, transport, and/or dispose of Caylee's body.

That's about all I have to contribute to this discussion, so no more "popping in" for me on this one!

:twocents:


Image: http://media.trb.com/media/photo/2011-06/62254021.jpg
 

Justiceseeker35

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There was a multi hour gap on the 16th where cell pings put her near Tonys apt but not with him which leads me to think she was waiting somewhere with Caylee until they could meet up and she's thinking, what am I gonna do with this kid? There are a ton of parks and lakes near his place. I'm also starting to believe she did very little planning before and after mostly just winging it. Not thinking of consequences. We only assume she double bagged her. Maybe she bagged her, it leaked so bagged her later and added the canvas bag to carry her. I would think the discovery of a major leak would prompt her to dispose of it all quickly.
 

logicalgirl

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Like you, I was merely speculating. Therefore I respectfully demur on your suggestion to go hunting for proof. IMO the bags at the remains scene looked pretty heavy-duty to my eyes, especially considering they had been exposed to the elements for six months. That's JMO.

62254021.jpg


I would not consider disposing of a murdered toddler's body "everyday use." So it would seem logical to me that a killer intending to dispose of a victim's body in a trash bag would choose a strong one. Just speculating.

I also don't recall whether the evidence indicated the decomp fluid in the trunk leaked from the opening of the bag(s), a rip/hole/tear in the bag(s), seepage due to bottom-seam failure, or by some other means.

And I agree that we don't know for sure exactly how and when FCA used all these items to contain, conceal, transport, and/or dispose of Caylee's body.

That's about all I have to contribute to this discussion, so no more "popping in" for me on this one!

:twocents:


Image: http://media.trb.com/media/photo/2011-06/62254021.jpg

Hmmm - you may have misunderstood some of my comments....which was re the bags - would the Anthony's routinely buy heavy duty garbage bags for their garbage? It's not like they have to carry it very far. I don't buy the more expensive heavy duty ones because our dumpster is just behind our building and we have special orange ones for leaves and things like that. And I doubt FCA specifically bought heavy duty ones for Caylee. I do have tie bags but they are just regular ones.

The whole conversation was about leakage vs time in the trunk as we were doing speculation from 2.6 days to 5 or 6 and the stain in the trunk. Plastic is not bio-degradeable at any strength, so despite being torn apart by animal activity - it should still be in very good shape.

I was hoping someone else would try the experiment....one experiment does not a stastic make..:floorlaugh:
 

logicalgirl

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The video store clip was at 7:58 pm.

George IIRC said he generally left the house on work days at 2:30 pm.

Yes, I remember him saying that - but I think she would be lurking for a bit - she might not know for sure he was working that day?

Thanks for the video time - saves me looking it up. Details, eh? I remembered it as being more like 6:30. Wonder if they or she went for something to eat first?
 

IfIMay

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Hmmm - you may have misunderstood some of my comments....which was re the bags - would the Anthony's routinely buy heavy duty garbage bags for their garbage? It's not like they have to carry it very far. I don't buy the more expensive heavy duty ones because our dumpster is just behind our building and we have special orange ones for leaves and things like that. And I doubt FCA specifically bought heavy duty ones for Caylee. I do have tie bags but they are just regular ones.

The whole conversation was about leakage vs time in the trunk as we were doing speculation from 2.6 days to 5 or 6 and the stain in the trunk. Plastic is not bio-degradeable at any strength, so despite being torn apart by animal activity - it should still be in very good shape.

I was hoping someone else would try the experiment....one experiment does not a stastic make..:floorlaugh:

I use heavy duty bags for my garbage (and trash) because I don't want leakage into my garbage cans. I don't have to take any further that George did.
 

wonders

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I have really enjoyed this discussion even if I don't participate. When all of you compare note's, memories and facts it make's for a very interesting read. I hope other's will try the same experiment and bring their results here to compare each result as we may learn something that was never thought of before.
Thanks everybody.
 

Desdemona

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Hmmm - you may have misunderstood some of my comments....which was re the bags - would the Anthony's routinely buy heavy duty garbage bags for their garbage? It's not like they have to carry it very far. I don't buy the more expensive heavy duty ones because our dumpster is just behind our building and we have special orange ones for leaves and things like that. And I doubt FCA specifically bought heavy duty ones for Caylee. I do have tie bags but they are just regular ones.

The whole conversation was about leakage vs time in the trunk as we were doing speculation from 2.6 days to 5 or 6 and the stain in the trunk. Plastic is not bio-degradeable at any strength, so despite being torn apart by animal activity - it should still be in very good shape.

I was hoping someone else would try the experiment....one experiment does not a stastic make..:floorlaugh:
I did not misunderstand your comments. What type of bags were confiscated from the Anthony home, and what type of bags Caylee's remains were in, is information that if specified in the docs (which I do not recall), can most likely be found searching online.

Many of us will recall a video from late summer/fall of 2008 showing George emerging from garage to curbside via his driveway, carrying out trash bags with yellow ties that IMO look similar to the ones found on Suburban Dr. in Dec. My guess would be that LE/SA considered the remains-scene bags and the Anthonys' similar-looking bags a match.

;) Guess. No link.

Correct, trash bags for the most part are not biodegradable. I noted that the ones found with Caylee's remains appeared to be heavy-duty in part because they were still in such good shape after six months out in the elements. I have seen with my own eyes that plastic bags do degrade somewhat with physical wear-and-tear and lengthy exposure to the elements. (Plastic bags in the ocean break down rather quickly, for instance.) After six months outdoors, IMO a typical lightweight kitchen-type trash bag would not look as pristine as those in the evidence photos -- JMO of course.

It also made sense to me that a person intending to contain a body in a trash bag would probably not do so if the only bags available (i.e. in the home) were thin or lightweight bags. Again, JMO. Speculating.

I have no horse in this race, LOL. My post was intended to augment the discussion, nothing more. I have no need to prove my opinion that they appear to have been heavy-duty bags, or else I'd be searching all over the Internet trying to nail it down.

As has been mentioned, we do not have accurate information regarding Caylee's weight, what type of bags were used, whether or how or how long/far they were carried with her body inside, whether they were carried inside the laundry bag, whether they were doubled immediately or later, when or whether they were placed in the laundry bag and/or trunk, what the conditions were inside the trunk when the bags were inside, etc. Even Vass and Haskell gave nonspecific ranges: 0.7 to 2.6 days for the decomp leakage, and 3 to 5 days spent in the trunk based on insect activity, respectively IIRC.

It's admirable to be curious and want to figure out what happened to Caylee IMO. But not knowing what the variables might be, IMO it would be hard to achieve a reliable result or arrive at a definitive conclusion. That is only my feeling; I do not judge those who feel differently or wish to explore possibilities through experimenting and speculating.

Respectfully, I will not be discussing this topic any further for the time being, so please don't consider me rude for not replying.

Thanks for understanding.
 

Jolynna

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Duct tape + ONE bag + a car trunk would achieve "fool-proof" suffocation.

However, even a heavy duty bag with something big & heavy inside of it stuck in a trunk where there were a bunch of coat hangers and other junk to bump against can tear. Even a small body would swell up and leak a LOT of fluid if left where it is hot and moist (like in a plastic bag overnight on a humid Florida night and into the next afternoon). More bags and the blanket might have been to keep the result--which could have leaked all over the bottom of the initial bag Caylee was put in--off of Casey.

However, it all went down, I have never doubted what Jeff Ashton told the poster when he signed her book--that Casey used the duct tape to kill Caylee.
moo
 

logicalgirl

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Ay-yi- yi - it was a simple experiment I did to see if the heavy centered weight of a child would hold in a garbage - I wasn't expecting a long discourse on the levels of garbage bags and whether or not they are biodegradeable! what value would my own experiment have to me (because I was the curious one and wanted to know for my own sake) to use a cheap flimsy kitchen variety bag to test?

Good grief - so much for me and posting my experiments!:banghead:
 

wonders

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Ay-yi- yi - it was a simple experiment I did to see if the heavy centered weight of a child would hold in a garbage - I wasn't expecting a long discourse on the levels of garbage bags and whether or not they are biodegradeable! what value would my own experiment have to me (because I was the curious one and wanted to know for my own sake) to use a cheap flimsy kitchen variety bag to test?

Good grief - so much for me and posting my experiments!:banghead:

Ohhhhh! I love your experiment's, please don't stop if something strike's your fancy.
 

Tulessa

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Ay-yi- yi - it was a simple experiment I did to see if the heavy centered weight of a child would hold in a garbage - I wasn't expecting a long discourse on the levels of garbage bags and whether or not they are biodegradeable! what value would my own experiment have to me (because I was the curious one and wanted to know for my own sake) to use a cheap flimsy kitchen variety bag to test?

Good grief - so much for me and posting my experiments!:banghead:

Keep up the good work LG :)
 

Harmony 2

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page 12 of that report dealt with the (VFA) butyric acid scraped from the carpet of the tire cover...

PMI26daysLIBSpg12finalreport.jpg

http://bit.ly/XwgBfo

I will bump some of these threads up for discussion...

This is the way I have always viewed it and it is only my opinion: There was butyric acid found on the carpet scrapings which indicated Caylee laid deceased on the tire cover for 0.7 to 2.6 days. However, there was no adipocere found in those scrapings. It was found on the paper towels in the white trash bag from Tony's apartment. Conversely, there was no butyric acid found on the paper towels. Research has shown that adipocere takes longer to form but can form in as little as days. The adipocere on the paper towels indicates, in my view, that the deceased body was handled after a while and in handling it the adipocere got on the handler's hands and then paper towels were used to wipe it off the hands. My belief is that the bagging took place inside the trunk after or sometime during the 0.7 to 2.6 days. Some do not see the outline of a body on the tire cover, but I do see it, and I don't think a leak from a torn garbage bag would have made that outline. Furthermore, I do think the bagged remains stayed a little longer in the trunk. The entomology findings also support this contention because coffin flies are attracted to advanced decomposition. The double bagging and heat in the trunk would have exacerbated the decomposition.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WT... individuals more likely to adipocere&f=false

adipocere-1.png


adiopocere research
http://pawsoflife-org.k9handleracademy.com/Library/HRD/Ubelaker_2011.pdf

Moreover, research has found the following:

But a study by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children shows that fathers are far more violent. And mothers frequently dispose of the corpses in what researchers call a "womblike" fashion. Bodies are swaddled, submerged in water, or wrapped in plastic. Moreover, the NCMEC study showed that while the victims of maternal killings are almost always found either in or close to the home, fathers will, on average, dispose of the bodies hundreds of miles away. All these behaviors suggest that women associate these murders with themselves, their homes, and their bodies.

The borrowed shovel, indentation in the dirt in the Anthony back yard and then disposal "close to home", in my opinion, show that the research information held true in this case. When the backyard burial did not work out I think the remains went back into the trunk until another site was found. IMO all the dots connect and the sequence of events is quite clear.
 

Justiceseeker35

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Very good post and points. This fits along with my theory of a rage killing
and leaving the body uncovered in the trunk for one night/morning, heading to the house next afternoon to do the minimum which was cover her in one bag. The next day discovery of a leak on the 18th and further decomp prompted her to attempt to borrow the shovel and bury her which caused her to handle the body and paper towels came into play. I doubt she removed it from the trunk at that time. She had to do something to stem the leak so further bagging and place her in the canvas bag. At which point she ditched the car at tony's and drove his truck on the 19th to go apartment hunting. Then Friday the 20th she made another stop near her home which was when I believe when she dropped the remains off at the wood site after she had all Thursday to think about where to leave the body. Partied with Tony all weekend not a care in the world..
I was also thinking today.. it's been slow at work.. that maybe the flurry of calls was a cry for help. Not a "I just killed my kid cry" but.. I seem to recall her telling a friend not sure if it was Annie Downing or Kiomarie that she need to seek professional help that she felt like she was going crazy or something to that effect? Maybe she recognized looking up suffocation and ways to die or kill others is a problem and she was a danger to Caylee? Or am I just reaching here and she was just trying to offload her kid and that's why she flurry called?
 

cv1964

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Very close to my theory. I think she placed her in the trunk unwrapped. Then borrowed the shovel, not to bury her but used it to move her from the trunk into the bags. I think she hosed the shovel off in the backyard, hence the dogs hitting. Since the decomposition was in the liner, even bagging and disposing of her baby didn't get rid of the smell as she had hoped. So like she did with caylee, she simply abandoned the car. I think we tend to give her way too much credit here. She simply isn't as crafty as we tend to think she must have been. I think the answer lies in the KISS complex.

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Baznme

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Ay-yi- yi - it was a simple experiment I did to see if the heavy centered weight of a child would hold in a garbage - I wasn't expecting a long discourse on the levels of garbage bags and whether or not they are biodegradeable! what value would my own experiment have to me (because I was the curious one and wanted to know for my own sake) to use a cheap flimsy kitchen variety bag to test?

Good grief - so much for me and posting my experiments!:banghead:

Not to worry. The word "experiment" should have sufficed for anyone. It yields inconclusive results generally but does answer questions. I am always interested in what you have to say......it's "logical" info I'm interested in reading, not the anaylization of what the "biodegradeable" rate is of a plastic bag. At the time she was put in the bag, the bag was new so how that would even factor into whether or not it would hold the weight of a small child 6 months later doesn't even matter. The earlier post above is moot.
 
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