In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

[Desdemona]

Yup - it would make sense that Dr. Vass's words are what are burned into my brain.
So what exactly are you saying - 3 - 5 or 2.5 to 3? Because to me it looks like you are flying both ways.

Who, me?

Oh no, not flying at all! LOL Just went and looked up the info in question. Trying to be Ms. Helpy Helperton.

Bug evidence did not say 2.5 to 3 days.

Bug evidence said up to 5 days.

It was air evidence that said 2.6 days.


HTH
--

ETA:

Per Harmony's post, Vass arrived at the 2.6 days PMI in part via testing scrapings from the trunk carpet. In his report, he notes that gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC-MS) was used to analyze the scrapings. This type of testing detects/measures chemicals in vaporized compounds from samples. So, the "air" in which the telltale butyric acid was detected didn't come from a Tedlar bag; it was vaporized via GC-MS from the substance scraped from the trunk carpet.

GC-MS: http://www.unsolvedmysteries.oregonstate.edu/MS_05

 

[ZsaZsa]

Yup - it would make sense that Dr. Vass's words are what are burned into my brain.
So what exactly are you saying - 3 - 5 or 2.5 to 3? Because to me it looks like you are flying both ways.

'Spice' posted that larvae and flies found in the car indicated that Caylee had been in the trunk , according to LE, 5-7 days. Dr Haskell gave the
Entomological evidence and he stated in his opinion it was 3-5 days.

What you apparently remembered was Dr Vass' testimony which addressed the chemical substances in the air of the trunk which were compatible with decomposition at 2.6 days from death...

 

[logicalgirl]

'Spice' posted that larvae and flies found in the car indicated that Caylee had been in the trunk , according to LE, 5-7 days. Dr Haskell gave the
Entomological evidence and he stated in his opinion it was 3-5 days.

What you apparently remembered was Dr Vass' testimony which addressed the chemical substances in the air of the trunk which were compatible with decomposition at 2.6 days from death...

Oh I get that - and did from the first - up to five days is pretty vague for me - and it sure doesn't mean 5 - 7 days - and I would naturally lean to the more scientific version of the three testimonies - because there was so little bug evidence found in the trunk.

 

[Niner]

The bug expert (entomologist N. Haskell) testified Caylee's body was moved twice, and remained in the trunk for up to five (5) days.

Haskell estimated the body remained in the car trunk for up to five days, long enough for biochemical changes that attract the gnats, before being moved directly to the woods, likely in June or early July 2008.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/11/us-crime-anthony-idUSTRE75956Z20110611
​

The 2.6 days post-mortem decomp estimate (PMI) was based on the air testing done by Dr. Vass.

Vass's report: http://bit.ly/XwgBfo

IMO, not necessarily that Caylee's body spent 2.6 days in the trunk, but that the chemicals in the air sampled from the trunk matched the levels of typical decomp at 2.6 days post-mortem.

HTH

And Dr. Vass' decomp smell test was taken after 31 days... plus! :what: So just think how much would have been there if she had been "caught" in late June! It would probably have matched the 3 - 5 day period!

 

[logicalgirl]

Just wanted to add re the time Caylee's body was in the trunk - we know FCA didn't care for Caylee and didn't want her around anymore.

But she did care about herself and her freedom and her life. And she knew enough to weave a web of lies to protect herself in most circumstances.
She also knew her parents had a key to her car.

So because she knew there was a big stink coming from her trunk - I just don't see her driving around with Caylee in the trunk for Dr. Haskells maximum of five days or even parking the car and leaving her there for that period of time. To me that was too big a risk that someone might discover her there or be around when she had to open the trunk.

Three days maybe but I sure don't think it was five. All IMO of course!

 

[Spice]

Yup - it would make sense that Dr. Vass's words are what are burned into my brain. And to add, Dr. Huntington for the Defense said there was no body in the trunk at all.
So what exactly are you saying - 3 - 5 or 2.5 to 3 days? Because to me it looks like you are flying both ways.

Nice you to hop in and comment - you will note I was responding to Spice whose post said 5-7 days.

3-5/5-7 but I knew on the low end it was more than two days (3) and on the higher end closer to a week. (5) She did not get rid of Caylee's body on the 18th, the day that she borrowed the shovel which would have been 2 days. It always blew my mind that she drove around with her daughter in her trunk for so many days and that is why I was so certain. I remember talking about it ad nauseam when that news first broke and then LE's original opinion was backed up by bug and larvae evidence.

The bug evidence didn't lie. The size of the coffin flies and larvae told the story. The trunk was air tight and there was no way for those flies to get into the car from the outside. That is how they could tell how long and what stage of decomposition Caylee's body was in before it was finally removed from the trunk.


Anyway, thanks for the posters that found the information, I'm glad to know the exact range. I know the facts can start to fuzz together after so many years and so much information.

 

[logicalgirl]

3-5/5-7 but I knew on the low end it was more than two days (3) and on the higher end closer to a week. (5) She did not get rid of Caylee's body on the 18th, the day that she borrowed the shovel which would have been 2 days. It always blew my mind that she drove around with her daughter in her trunk for so many days and that is why I was so certain. I remember talking about it ad nauseam when that news first broke and then LE's original opinion was backed up by bug and larvae evidence.

The bug evidence didn't lie. The size of the coffin flies and larvae told the story. The trunk was air tight and there was no way for those flies to get into the car from the outside. That is how they could tell how long and what stage of decomposition Caylee's body was in before it was finally removed from the trunk.


Anyway, thanks for the posters that found the information, I'm glad to know the exact range. I know the facts can start to fuzz together after so many years and so much information.

I'm glad you feel better :great: because I'm still :waitasec: ! Dr. Haskell said up to five days - and Dr Vass said 2.5 days and Dr. Huntington, Haskells ex student said it wasn't there at all (although in the end he conceded it could have been). I guess I'll have to settle on a maximum of five days and I'll never believe she was moving a decomposing body in and out of the trunk.
I sure would be nervous about leaving it there in the trunk for five days however.

 

[AZlawyer]

I'm glad you feel better :great: because I'm still :waitasec: ! Dr. Haskell said up to five days - and Dr Vass said 2.5 days and Dr. Huntington, Haskells ex student said it wasn't there at all (although in the end he conceded it could have been). I guess I'll have to settle on a maximum of five days and I'll never believe she was moving a decomposing body in and out of the trunk.
I sure would be nervous about leaving it there in the trunk for five days however.

The 2.5 days came from the carpet scrapings, right? So that might just mean 2.5 days until the plastic bags were added?

Trying to remember all this time later....

 

[logicalgirl]

The 2.5 days came from the carpet scrapings, right? So that might just mean 2.5 days until the plastic bags were added?

Trying to remember all this time later....

I'm not understanding? :waitasec: Carpet decomp scrapings....days after the plastic bags were removed.....I think it was bug evidence vs. air values...

I could be having a slow brain morning....:blushing:

 

[AZlawyer]

I'm not understanding? :waitasec: Carpet decomp scrapings....days after the plastic bags were removed.....I think it was bug evidence vs. air values...

I could be having a slow brain morning....:blushing:

I think the 2.5 (2.6?) days figure was from carpet scrapings...meaning that the substance in the carpet was consistent with a body having been on that carpet 2.5 days after death.

Then the body could have been better wrapped (e.g., plastic bags and laundry bag vs. just a blanket) but still in the trunk for another couple of days before disposal. The plastic bags might prevent further decomp substances from getting into the carpet but might not entirely prevent certain bugs from being attracted.

 

[logicalgirl]

I think the 2.5 (2.6?) days figure was from carpet scrapings...meaning that the substance in the carpet was consistent with a body having been on that carpet 2.5 days after death.

Then the body could have been better wrapped (e.g., plastic bags and laundry bag vs. just a blanket) but still in the trunk for another couple of days before disposal. The plastic bags might prevent further decomp substances from getting into the carpet but might not entirely prevent certain bugs from being attracted.

Could be yes, but that doesn't fit with the one bug leg of evidence does it? A body decomping in a trunk unwrapped would have been crawling 2.5 days after death....in the Florida heat, wouldn't it?
I am going to have to go back and reread all this trunk evidence AGAIN because I don't recall any experts testifying they thought the body was in the trunk unwrapped for any period of time....

Oh good grief - this is a very good article of the process, which states putrification starts at 2 days and the body is swollen. Bugs by the end of the first day begin. That's all I saying....ack!
http://www.cienciaforense.com/pages/entomology/overview.htm

I just can't imagine any bagging being done after two days....

 

[AZlawyer]

Could be yes, but that doesn't fit with the one bug leg of evidence does it? A body decomping in a trunk unwrapped would have been crawling 2.5 days after death....in the Florida heat, wouldn't it?
I am going to have to go back and reread all this trunk evidence AGAIN because I don't recall any experts testifying they thought the body was in the trunk unwrapped for any period of time....

Oh good grief - this is a very good article of the process, which states putrification starts at 2 days and the body is swollen. Bugs by the end of the first day begin. That's all I saying....ack!
http://www.cienciaforense.com/pages/entomology/overview.htm

I just can't imagine any bagging being done after two days....

I was thinking the trunk itself would stop many bugs (not all), and then Casey could have cleaned out most of the bug evidence. And maybe Cindy later on...

But I'm not saying the body would have been "unwrapped" for 2.6 days--I think there would have been a lot more decomp evidence in that case--just that it might have been in the blanket and laundry bag for a couple of days before Casey realized she needed to add plastic bags.

 

[Desdemona]

I think the 2.5 (2.6?) days figure was from carpet scrapings...meaning that the substance in the carpet was consistent with a body having been on that carpet 2.5 days after death.

Then the body could have been better wrapped (e.g., plastic bags and laundry bag vs. just a blanket) but still in the trunk for another couple of days before disposal. The plastic bags might prevent further decomp substances from getting into the carpet but might not entirely prevent certain bugs from being attracted.

Yes, it was the carpet scrapings, and yes, Caylee's body could have been in the trunk longer.

Here is a link to the part in Vass's report where the "2.6 days" is mentioned. (Thanks Harmony2):
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8613155&postcount=1748"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Sidebar for Caylee Anthony's forum #14[/ame]



Notice Dr. Vass specifies:

"... a post-mortem interval of less than 2.6 days (range of 0.7 - 2.6 days)."​

... and that this was assuming an average temperature of 35 degree C. (95 degrees F.).

Vass's report explains that when the scraped substance was vaporized for testing, butyric acid was present in the resulting gases, but not other fatty acids which would have been present if the substance came from a body that had been deceased longer.

The 0.7 to 2.6-day range means the decomp fluids (the fluids, not necessarily the body!) that caused the trunk stain made contact with the carpeted surface of the trunk within ~16 hours of her death (0.7), or as long as 2.6 days after death.

This IMO fits with the scenarios of Caylee having died inside the trunk, or having been placed into the trunk very soon after she died. In fact, the bug evidence would seem to indicate that this was the case, since there were scant signs of any 'early colonizers' that usually arrive almost immediately after death.

As AZ notes, Caylee's body could have remained or been removed/replaced in the trunk later/longer than the leaked fluid indicated, if she were wrapped or re-wrapped after the leakage occurred.

Poor Caylee.

 

[Desdemona]

I was thinking the trunk itself would stop many bugs (not all), and then Casey could have cleaned out most of the bug evidence. And maybe Cindy later on...

But I'm not saying the body would have been "unwrapped" for 2.6 days--I think there would have been a lot more decomp evidence in that case--just that it might have been in the blanket and laundry bag for a couple of days before Casey realized she needed to add plastic bags.

BBM: Possible, but maybe very messy? What if the laundry bag was added afterward, to contain the mess and allow for eventual disposal (handles).

It has been my experience in dealing with garbage and food items, that plastic bags seem impervious, but can end up leaking.

True story: A few years ago, I left a whole turkey sitting undisturbed on a platter in the fridge for several days, double-sealed in two tied plastic shopping bags. I had no idea it had gone VERY, VERY bad -- there was NO odor whatsoever, until I lifted the heavy bag(s) from the plate.

OMG OMG >>> Instant nauseating MASSIVE NASTINESS immediately filled my nose and my home -- the smell was intense and pervasive, and took a long time to get rid of. Unbeknownst to me, the plastic bag and the heft of the turkey had been sealing all the reeking ugliness underneath until I broke that seal by lifting it from the platter. Whew, what a shock and what an unpleasant experience.

To dispose of this rotting, stinking carcass, I then had to (ugh) place the original, leaking plastic bags containing the nasty turkey inside a bigger plastic bag with handles, into which I'd first placed newspapers in the bottom, to soak up and contain the mess.

I have recalled this stinky incident repeatedly when pondering the topic of FCA's texts to Amy beginning 6/25/08, about a "something-died" smell that suddenly became a problem in her car until she "got rid of it." JMO

 

[AZlawyer]

BBM: Possible, but maybe very messy? What if the laundry bag was added afterward, to contain the mess and allow for eventual disposal (handles).

It has been my experience in dealing with garbage and food items, that plastic bags seem impervious, but can end up leaking.

True story: A few years ago, I left a whole turkey sitting undisturbed on a platter in the fridge for several days, double-sealed in two tied plastic shopping bags. I had no idea it had gone VERY, VERY bad -- there was NO odor whatsoever, until I lifted the heavy bag(s) from the plate.

OMG OMG >>> Instant nauseating MASSIVE NASTINESS immediately filled my nose and my home -- the smell was intense and pervasive, and took a long time to get rid of. Unbeknownst to me, the plastic bag and the heft of the turkey had been sealing all the reeking ugliness underneath until I broke that seal by lifting it from the platter. Whew, what a shock and what an unpleasant experience.

To dispose of this rotting, stinking carcass, I then had to (ugh) place the original, leaking plastic bags containing the nasty turkey inside a bigger plastic bag with handles, into which I'd first placed newspapers in the bottom, to soak up and contain the mess.

I have recalled this stinky incident repeatedly when pondering the topic of FCA's texts to Amy beginning 6/25/08, about a "something-died" smell that suddenly became a problem in her car until she "got rid of it." JMO

BBM

There was a really horrible stain on the laundry bag, though, and the outline of a small curled-up person. So I don't think the plastic bags were used first.

 

[Desdemona]

BBM

There was a really horrible stain on the laundry bag, though, and the outline of a small curled-up person.
So I don't think the plastic bags were used first.

With utmost respect, and ICBW, but I'm pretty sure it was documented as being the other way around, body inside plastic bags, then plastic bags inside laundry bag.

Here is a link to a wayback WS post that quotes the docs (link to docs is dead), indicating bones were inside the plastic bag(s), which were inside the laundry bag:

"There were two bags visible next to the skull. The black bag appeared to have been inside the tan bag. I could see additional bones within the opening of the black bag."
​

(From this old WS post.)
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3348172&"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Canvas Laundry Bags[/ame]


And another, with screencaps of the docs, where the bags/remains are described:

Doc screencaps read as follows:

"There were two bags visible next to the skull. One was a black plastic garbage bag and the second a tan colored canvass-type bag. The black bag appeared to have been inside the tan bag. I could see additional bones within the opening of the black bag."

[and note that upon later inspection, the 'black plastic garbage bag' turned out to be TWO garbage bags, one inside the other, one knotted closed and one untied.]

"There were a total of two black plastic bags with yellow ties inside the canvass-type bag."​

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3348215&postcount=25"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Canvas Laundry Bags[/ame]



IMO the photos from the crime scene may make it more clear as well.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...ony-crime-scene-photos,0,1630574.photogallery

As for the horrible stain on the laundry bag? Well, as noted earlier, plastic bags DO leak. Plus it was out in the water and muck for six months.

JMO

 

[AZlawyer]

With utmost respect, and ICBW, but I'm pretty sure it was documented as being the other way around, body inside plastic bags, then plastic bags inside laundry bag.

Here is a link to a wayback WS post that quotes the docs (link to docs is dead), indicating bones were inside the plastic bag(s), which were inside the laundry bag:

"There were two bags visible next to the skull. The black bag appeared to have been inside the tan bag. I could see additional bones within the opening of the black bag."
​

(From this old WS post.)
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Canvas Laundry Bags


And another, with screencaps of the docs, where the bags/remains are described:

Doc screencaps read as follows:

"There were two bags visible next to the skull. One was a black plastic garbage bag and the second a tan colored canvass-type bag. The black bag appeared to have been inside the tan bag. I could see additional bones within the opening of the black bag."

[and note that upon later inspection, the 'black plastic garbage bag' turned out to be TWO garbage bags, one inside the other, one knotted closed and one untied.]

"There were a total of two black plastic bags with yellow ties inside the canvass-type bag."​

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Canvas Laundry Bags



IMO the photos from the crime scene may make it more clear as well.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...ony-crime-scene-photos,0,1630574.photogallery

As for the horrible stain on the laundry bag? Well, as noted earlier, plastic bags DO leak. Plus it was out in the water and muck for six months.

JMO

Thank you so much for the links. I'm sure I've forgotten more than I remember about the details of this case.

 

[ZsaZsa]

With utmost respect, and ICBW, but I'm pretty sure it was documented as being the other way around, body inside plastic bags, then plastic bags inside laundry bag.

Here is a link to a wayback WS post that quotes the docs (link to docs is dead), indicating bones were inside the plastic bag(s), which were inside the laundry bag:

"There were two bags visible next to the skull. The black bag appeared to have been inside the tan bag. I could see additional bones within the opening of the black bag."
​

(From this old WS post.)
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Canvas Laundry Bags


And another, with screencaps of the docs, where the bags/remains are described:

Doc screencaps read as follows:

"There were two bags visible next to the skull. One was a black plastic garbage bag and the second a tan colored canvass-type bag. The black bag appeared to have been inside the tan bag. I could see additional bones within the opening of the black bag."

[and note that upon later inspection, the 'black plastic garbage bag' turned out to be TWO garbage bags, one inside the other, one knotted closed and one untied.]

"There were a total of two black plastic bags with yellow ties inside the canvass-type bag."​

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Canvas Laundry Bags



IMO the photos from the crime scene may make it more clear as well.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...ony-crime-scene-photos,0,1630574.photogallery

As for the horrible stain on the laundry bag? Well, as noted earlier, plastic bags DO leak. Plus it was out in the water and muck for six months.

JMO

Thanks. Isn't that just the most hideous thing? She tossed her out there with complete contempt. The laundry bags would garner more attention from anyone in the swamp area,than garbage bags would, so IMO she didn't even care if Caylee was found ,or she would have wrapped her within garbage bags...

 

[logicalgirl]

I was thinking the trunk itself would stop many bugs (not all), and then Casey could have cleaned out most of the bug evidence. And maybe Cindy later on...

But I'm not saying the body would have been "unwrapped" for 2.6 days--I think there would have been a lot more decomp evidence in that case--just that it might have been in the blanket and laundry bag for a couple of days before Casey realized she needed to add plastic bags.

Okay now I understand - but after a couple of days "open" I think the bug activity would have been much higher in the trunk after all, don't you? I have to reread, but I remember experts saying coffin flies, etc can get into what appear to be sealed places very easily.

I don't know - I mean from the description, actually moving a ...no...let me just say a body in that condition ...into plastic bags after two days....pretty difficult for even a very strong stomach I think. And why leave her there for another three days?? That's what makes no sense to me. She was still driving that car around on the 24th when George asked for his car thingys...the chance of getting caught - it's not like it was a diamond ring or something - the smell would have been mighty powerful after five days...from the outside of the car....

 

[logicalgirl]

With utmost respect, and ICBW, but I'm pretty sure it was documented as being the other way around, body inside plastic bags, then plastic bags inside laundry bag.

Here is a link to a wayback WS post that quotes the docs (link to docs is dead), indicating bones were inside the plastic bag(s), which were inside the laundry bag:

"There were two bags visible next to the skull. The black bag appeared to have been inside the tan bag. I could see additional bones within the opening of the black bag."
​

(From this old WS post.)
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Canvas Laundry Bags


And another, with screencaps of the docs, where the bags/remains are described:

Doc screencaps read as follows:

"There were two bags visible next to the skull. One was a black plastic garbage bag and the second a tan colored canvass-type bag. The black bag appeared to have been inside the tan bag. I could see additional bones within the opening of the black bag."

[and note that upon later inspection, the 'black plastic garbage bag' turned out to be TWO garbage bags, one inside the other, one knotted closed and one untied.]

"There were a total of two black plastic bags with yellow ties inside the canvass-type bag."​

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Canvas Laundry Bags



IMO the photos from the crime scene may make it more clear as well.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...ony-crime-scene-photos,0,1630574.photogallery

As for the horrible stain on the laundry bag? Well, as noted earlier, plastic bags DO leak. Plus it was out in the water and muck for six months.

JMO

Yes, I see what you are saying about the two bags - I guess decency has always had us assuming Caylee was placed in the softer canvas bag first..:banghead: ..as if that sort of thing would matter to a child killer...