Interpreting the "evidence"

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by RedChief, Feb 22, 2005.

  1. RedChief

    RedChief New Member

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    If we could be sure (convinced) there was no mysterious intruder, we still wouldn't know, strictly on that basis, which of the occupants (other than JonBenet) was/were involved in her death and/or the alleged cover-up. Further, we can't be sure who the occupants were. [By "occupants", I mean all those present in the home at the time of the incident, whose presence was known to, and authorized by, both parents.] This is self-evident. The Ramseys have not reported the presence of any "bushy-haired" assailant, nor alluded to the presence of any authorized person other than themselves and Burke and JonBenet.

    It seems to me that the best way to defeat the intruder hypothesis (if you are so inclined) is to carefully examine and soundly interpret the evidence. I know I am not alone in this assessment.

    I have already mentioned the knots as possibly being crucial evidence. There is one knot in particular which strikes me as being especially relevant--the knot in the "noose". My questions about it go largely unanswered, for some strange reason. Maybe because shedding too much light on the nature of this knot will make the purpose of the "garotte" obvious, and preclude further discussion. Can we talk?

    The coroner has said (autopsy report) this is a square knot. The RST (so-called) have said this is a sophisticated slip-knot. I know enough about square knots to know that square knots CAN slip; and whether one would do so would depend on which parts of the cord undergo tension at the same time--are pulled. However, a square knot is not preferred as a noose knot or as a lariat knot, because it tends NOT to slip. But, if a square knot is tied incorrectly, producing what is commonly referred to as a "granny knot", though it will slip more easily than a square knot in certain applications, it will NOT slip AT ALL when it is used as the knotting method in a "noose"; and will, in fact, work better than a square knot, in such application, if slipping is not desired.

    Now, in the case of the aforementioned "square knot" in the "noose" around JBR's neck, if you were to grasp the stick attached to the end of the longer tail of the cord, and pull, would you expect the "noose" to tighten? Well, if you knew the knot were a slip knot, you'd probably answer, YES. It might even tighten under the weight of the body, but would most certainly tighten if the body were constrained from moving under the influence of the tension in the cord. But, if you knew the knot were a square knot, you might answer, NO; because the square knot is designed (but not always effective) to prevent slippage. It is a good, easily constructed knot for conjoining two lengths of cord (splice) for the very reason that it tends to be slip-proof; but, you have to do it correctly, else you'll end up with a granny knot that will very likely slip and would not be a good choice for splicing cords. However, if you knew the knot in the "noose" around JBR's neck was a granny knot (which resembles a square knot, and only differs from it in one particular), you'd almost certainly answer, NO; because in this application, the granny knot (if properly tightened) would be superior to the square knot in terms of it's tendency NOT to slip.

    In any event, of what use is a "noose" (a loop which could be placed around the neck and drawn tight by pulling on the long tailing end) if it is equipped with a non-slipping knot? Whereas it could be used to control a live person, in the manner of a yolk, as was often done with slaves, it would be useless as a breath-control device in AEA as has been proposed by some, and it would be useless as a strangulation device as has been proposed by many. It could be used to drag the body (something which I and others have considered), but what evidence is there of this, or to hang the body?

    Now, it has been suggested that the child could have been strangled by the cord that was found affixed to her neck, by simply wrapping the cord around her neck, tightening it and making a knot in it, as one might tie a package to be mailed, etc. (the sort of simple knot like that used to tie a shoe, but without the bow), and then, while tension was still present in the cord, making another similar knot to lock the previous knot and form a part of the finished knot as a whole. But, that this might be difficult to do, especially with a live and kicking child, has been suggested, because one tail of the "noose" was only 4 inches long and would not afford a satisfactory grip for the operation. Yet, what is absent in this appraisal is the possibility that, either the child was not kicking and/or the 4-inch tail was once part of a much longer tail that was eventually cut off, and possibly even used as the wrist ligature. Nevertheless, I doubt this would be a preferred method for effecting strangulation; still if it is your intention to strangle someone, would you not likely used whatever means is available?

    At any rate, if you believe the non-slip-knot assessment (whether granny or square, or other), then you must conclude, on those grounds alone, that the make-shift "garotte" handle was of no utilitarian purpose. Now, what does that suggest?

    BTW, pressure, when it is present, is exerted in both (in the case of liquid, ALL) directions; if there is tension (a form of pressure) in the cord owing to swelling of the body, there is also simultaneous pressure in the tissue which pushes against the cord, so you can't say it was the tissue of the swelling body (post mortem) pushing against the cord that caused the ligature groove any more than you can say it was the cord pushing against the swelling tissue. Pressure doesn't occur in a vacuum, but a vacuum can be established via pressure.
     
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  3. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    Make a poll Red. Was the knot a slip knot or knot (not)? What's the name of the other kind of knot that doesn't slip, a stop, or tight or just non-slip? Has there been a definitive description by an authority?

    I vote non-slip.

    I think JB was out cold, if not dead, when the garotte was applied. I think there was an initial strangulation that caused unconsciousness. That attack left the bruising below the neck and may not have involved the cord.
     
  4. RedChief

    RedChief New Member

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    There are, as I'm sure you know, knots that are designed to slip and knots that are designed to lock; also, there are knots that are designed to lock, but don't in your application, and there are knots that are designed to slip, but don't in your application. Also, whether they lock or not or slip or not depends to some extent on the design of the cord; generally a cord of round cross-section will not lock as well as one of flat or semi-flat cross-section. Also a firm cord (e.g., a cowboy's lariat) won't lock as well as a synthetic shoestring.

    It's interesting what you think may have happened to JBR. You state that she may already have been dead or unconscious when the garotte was applied. You may be right. You say she may have been strangled into unconsciousness prior to the application of the garotte and that might account for the bruising on the neck. This too may be right. How do you explain the initial strangulation (the purpose), and do you view this death as accidental or premeditated?
     
  5. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    I say it was no accident. But the word premeditated is not quite accurate either. I say Patsy was subject to compulsive thoughts. She had a history of using JonBenet. Over time she saw JonBenet as an object. In depth psychology terms the object carries the projection of the inner workings of the mind. Patsy unconsciously projected her dark and light sides onto the girl. The dark side, her criminal nature, recieved the abuse, the punishment for sin. The light side went to heaven as an angel. This split thinking was evident in her display of JonBenet in the pageants and the reports of Patsy sending the girl to school looking unkempt.
     
  6. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Until you can demonstrate that the ligature killed JonBenet, speculation about knots is arbitrary.

    If think think the basement wine cellar is the scene of the crime and she was sadistically murdered there then you can pursue a certain line of enquiry.

    But if its staging then you have to question it all. Including the ligature, paintbrush handle, her clothing , her placement etc.

    My rough timeline for JonBenet's body goes something like this.

    1.) Jonbenet arrives back home.

    2.) JohnBenet snacks pineapple.

    3.) JonBenet is deceased.

    4.) Bedroom Staging.

    5.) Kidnap Staging.

    6.) Other Staging.

    7.) Basement Staging.

    8.) JonBenet's Body Discovered

    Now some of the times we know, most we dont, but if you accept that the staging occurred , even although you dont know all its details, you can just about see a sequence, the one I've suggested is obviously not exact, but it probably represents a decent stab at a crime scene reconstruction.

    First thing to file away, is that its a Staged Homicide, trivial I know but it helps not to be led astray by simulated evidence.

    Second item to note is its a complex staging, most staged homicides, have only one layer of staging.

    From some of the staging evidence we can infer it was abandonded ie Kidnap scenario, but the note was retained as a diversionary device, the ramsays had every intention of leaving the state asap!

    Other staging ie Bedroom, is either precautionary, or an abandonded scenario.

    In between this and her final resting place in the basement she was likely placed elsewhere, this staging was revised to become the basement staging which is that of a bedroom abduction that has been left incomplete !

    Now in most cases of strangulation the favored staging is that of suicide by hanging.

    So I can speculate that this pre-basement staging may have been a staged suicide by hanging, hence the "cutting down" assumptions. But the person who cut her down, obviously thought, rightly, not many 6-year olds commit suicide!

    So there was now a basement staging with the addition of the paintbrush handle a re-arrangement of the cord and additional clothing including her Barbie nightgown, and possibly a sexual assault!

    And it all worked most people think JonBenet was violently murdered and sexually assaulted in a sadistic manner in the basement.

    But applying, occams razor, or KISS, until I know more. Its likely she was murdered lying on her stomach on her own or another bed. Her killer may have bound her with the rope, and if the killer placed a knee on her back to keep her down, helping to cause those abrasions. Then JonBenet may have simply suffocated, with her face down into a pillow or sheets, unable to breath, her killer may have whacked her on the head, hoping to avoid her screaming.

    So her arms may have been naturally in this above the shoulder position, during the bedroom assault, either due to her adopting a submissive posture or one forced upon her by her assailant. Conversely she may have been on her back adopting the same posture, but this position invokes a different assault scenario.


    So unlike any consensual or solo autoerotic asphyxiation which would simply be an ACCIDENT for which there would be no case to answer and thus no need for an investigation. The above scenario portrays an intentional homicide and a pretty brutal one at that, given JonBenet's age!
     
  7. RedChief

    RedChief New Member

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    Well, all speculation is arbitrary to the extent that it doesn't explain the evidence. We are not speculating about the knots. We are trying to make an educated guess as to the nature of them. The coroner didn't say he guessed the knot was a square knot or that he speculated that it was a square knot. He said it was a square knot. So, if we take him at his word, we don't even have to look at the photos. However, if we look at the photos, we can make an educated guess as to the accuracy of the coroner's observation. If we can convince ourselves that it was a square knot or a granny knot (closely resembling a square knot) we can make some deductions regarding the purpose of it and the noose which incorporates it. In short, we can say this "garotte" isn't a garotte; it's fake. If we can say it's fake, we can ponder why this would be so; we might conclude that it is the most obvious evidence of staging in the entire scene. We can also ask whether it ties in with the ransom note--the kidnappers are a small foreign faction (representatives thereof) and the garotte handle has Korea printed on it in plain view. That may have been more a reason to re-fashion a paintbrush than any other that has been proposed, including simple accessibility.

    I don't think the basement wine cellar was the scene of the crime in it's entirety; it's a crime to abuse a corpse, you know, and to obstruct justice.

    I think we have to question it all regardless of whether we view it as staging or not, or staging within staging or not.

    "...it's a Staged Homicide..." I don't think that's the first thing to file away; the first thing to file away is all the evidence that might lead one to that conclusion.

    "Now some of the times we know..." I don't think we know any of the times. We're guessing about this too.

    I'm not sure that the kidnap scenario was abandoned; they retained the note. How can you think this scenario was abandoned knowing that they retained the note? The note is the most OBVIOUS connection to a kidnapping scenario, real or imagined.

    So this scene has four layers of staging? What to do? What to do!

    How about JonBenet snacks pineapple; JonBenet arrives home.

    Who is doing all this staging and who killed the kid? That's what we want to know.

    It would have been a simple matter to properly secret the body on the premises and claim kidnapping. That was not done. Why? That would have been a perfect and obvious solution for the Ramseys, so why partially abandon it and cast suspicion on themselves by retaining the ransom note?

    What was the bedroom staging again? Refresh me on that please.

    "In between...she was likely placed elsewhere..." How did you arrive at this conclusion?

    "But the person who cut her down..." There is no evidence that she had been hanged or that she hung. Where is the evidence of this? The person who staged suicide by hanging was a child or an adult?

    Yeah, the killer may have whacked her on the head alright; whether to avoid her screaming is speculation. He may have whacked her on the head out of anger. There was no evidence of smothering in the fashion you've described, with face down in pillow or sheets; almost always evidence of that in the way of fibers in the mouth, throat, bronchi, lungs etc.

    Now, I liked your on-her-belly guess, with arms in the above-the-shoulder position, but how do you reconcile that with the lividity? Her arms were frozen in that position by RM and the lividity developed on her back and the right side of her face as it should have for the position in which she was found. For your explanation to work, the body would have had to become stiff before any appreciable (noticeable) lividity set in. Irregularities in lividity can be a sign that the body has been moved. No such irregularities were noted. So, which occurs first, noticeable lividity or noticeable rigor? Maybe we're making too much of this arm posture matter, since we aren't really sure what was meant by arms over the head. We don't know whether the elbows were bent.

    How might one cause those abrasions with one's knee? What specifically about that scenario would cause those abrasions?

    Keep on ruminating.
     
  8. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    JonBenet was alive and trying to save herself from the "noose", proven by the little fingernail scratch marks in the area !
     
  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    RedChief:
    Thanks for your reply,

    JonBenet was at the Whites Party earlier, and had already eaten. Given the rate of digestion of pineapple , pretty fast, its highly unlikely she ate it prior to leaving for the Whites. So she ate it after arriving back home!

    Whilst the Ransom Note is evidence of kidnap staging, it is NOT evidence of its prosecution. The RN was a diversionary tactic.

    I will flesh this scenario out further as and when I get time, since collating evidence and being factual can be time consuming.
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Eagle1: Thanks I know what you mean, but she did eventually succumb to her assailants assault. So where precisely to factor those "marks" in, may be important in determining her initial posture.

    I have an alternative assault scenario for her lying on her back. But some aspects of the case are quite marked or static, such as the pineapple , or her being cleaned up, and her final posture. The latter may be a red-herring , ie just an artifact of violent circumstance?
     
  11. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    RedChief,

    Where has he said it's a square knot?
     
  12. RedChief

    RedChief New Member

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    BlueCrab,

    I stand corrected; it's on page two of the report---double knot; my mind is playing tricks on me.

    My humble apologies.
     
  13. RedChief

    RedChief New Member

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    Eagle1,

    Would you be so kind as to point out those fingernail marks in the photos.

    I'm not sure I'm looking at the right marks.

    I recall that one "expert" claimed he could see evidence on the neck that JonBenet had fought the noose. I believe this was a controversial "finding" at the time. Is this a concensual reality? I have always doubted it on the premise that no skin or blood was found under her fingernails. The coroner said they were long enough to clip. Exactly how long that would be is anyone's guess. It isn't uncommon for strangulation victims (by ligature or the like) to have broken fingernails, torn cuticles, and their own skin and blood under their nails. What was the material under the nails that supplied the DNA that was collected from there? I guess the quantity was minute?

    Thanks for bringing us back around to the marks on the neck.

    Regarding the large triangular mark: The coroner describes it as rust-colored and parchment-like. Could it have been inflicted by someone who came up behind JonBenet and grabbed her around the neck--with his arm? Is it possible that there was something on his jacket (assuming he was wearing one) or on his arm (a wristwatch or bracelet) that scraped her neck in the process? This is really an odd looking injury. Maybe my computer monitor isn't rendering the photo correctly. It looks mighty red (on the vermillion side of red) but I don't notice any dried blood associated with it.
     
  14. Kaly

    Kaly Inactive

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    I read DOI, spoken to Jameson, and I have to say that I'm nearly convinced now of the intruder theory, although it bothers me the way the Ramseys acted/ have acted /are acting. I do not think they are guilty, just self-absorbed. Why hasn't anyone asked the Ramsey's what the marks are? Why haven't they commented on them? Maybe they have logical explanations for things that JonBenet may have been involved in right before the murder that would have caused marks on her body.
     
  15. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    Please study this picture:

    http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg

    The crime scene photo above shows the cords after they were taken off JonBenet. The ligature around her neck is the large loop in the middle of the photo; and the double loop knot is at the bottom of the photo.

    The only purpose that I can see for the DOUBLE LOOP KNOT was to tie her ankles together. IOW, it appears that JonBenet had been hog-tied and strung up with her arms and legs pointing up. I sketched out this scene and drew in the cords as described in the autopsy report and everything fitted.

    HERE'S THE SECTION DESCRIBING THE CORD WRAPPED AROUND THE NECK:

    "Extending from the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck are two tails of the knot, one measuring 4 inches in length and having a frayed end, and the other measuring 17 inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around a length of a round tan-brown wooden stick which measures 4.5 inches in length."

    HERE'S THE SECTION DESCRIBING THE CORD ATTACHED TO THE WRIST:

    "Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord is also frayed."

    IMO the double loop knot shown in the photo was to bind JonBenet's legs together at the ankles, and then raise the legs up and hog tie them close to the hands that were also bound together. This length of cord was then hung over something, like the back of a chair, stretching her arms and legs upward to pose JonBenet obscenely.

    A Ramsey would have discovered her very early in the A.M. and staged the scene to look more decent.

    Edited by Bluecrab to remove a reference to the stick.

    BlueCrab
     
  16. Firstpage

    Firstpage New Member

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    Bluecrab, thanks for that explanation. The upper loop in the photo you say was round the neck, was it a sliding knot, in other words could the loop be made bigger or smaller I presume it was or how else did they remove it from her without cutting it off? I have never quite understood the knots used on the cords from the pictures they always seem quite firm and unmoveable.
     
  17. Nehemiah

    Nehemiah Active Member

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    Is it possible to think that JR may have reposed her even if this crime were committed by an intruder? Could it be that her initial posing looked too graphic and degrading? Would a father, even though totally innocent, do something such as this? If he did this when he went into the basement around 10 a.m., that would explain his change in countenance as described by Arndt, and his desire to run to the basement and "search" when Arndt gave the command to do so around 1 p.m.

    Again, would an innocent father take it upon himself to repose a murdered child if the only reason were out of embarrassment and pain of her appearing the way she obviously did appear? And then he would have confessed this to his attorneys, thus the appearance of a cover-up, when there really was none. Is that all too complicated? Just thinking out loud. Those of you who are fathers with daughters, please reply.
     
  18. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    Firstpage,

    The coroner did cut off the ligature from around the neck. Here's a picture of it showing the cut and JonBenet's hair entwined in what the coroner called a double knot. It appears to me to be a slip knot that was pulled so hard that it tightened and no longer functioned as a slip knot.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote4.jpg

    I'm a little suspicious of the other photo showing the ligature that was around the neck and the double loop knot that I hypothesize was around her ankles. It could be a re-creation. It's hard to tell what happens to the cord as it disappears in the top of the picture and then re-emerges. To be complete and showing all of the cord from the crime scene the cord between the neck ligature and the stick would have to be 17 inches; and the cord between the wrist ligature and the double loop knot would have to 21 inches.

    Therefore, of the two cords that disappear at the top of the photo, one must contain the stick at the end, and the other one must contain the knot that was loosely tied on the wrist.

    BlueCrab
     
  19. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    Nehemiah,

    Absolutely. I don't think any father on the face of this earth would want crime scene photos of his 6-year-old daughter taken that were graphically obscene and would be recorded permanently as a part of history.

    However, I don't think that technically the perp was an intruder. I think he had been let into the house by Burke, or perhaps even the parents. Otherwise there wouldn't have been a need for the barrage of lies, footdragging with respect to the investigation, and the coverup.

    IMO John Ramsey found JonBenet very early that morning and reposed her to give her a measure of dignity in death. Burke was involved and the children (IMO there was also a sixth person) had most of the staging complete, including the ransom note, when she was found by John. John and Patsy decided to go along with what the children had started.

    It worked for the Ramseys -- except now there's an adult killer walking around free somewhere out there. IMO Burke knows who he is.

    BlueCrab
     
  20. Miss Daisey

    Miss Daisey Former Member

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    Blue Crab,

    I doubt very much that JR was even THINKING about crime scene photos upon possibily finding his daughter in some obscene pose or position. If any thing, I believe he would have cut her down hoping she was still alive.

    If Burke, knowingly, let the perp inside, the cops or JR would have gotten that information out of him early on, IMO. I'm thinking Burke SAW the perp...knows or thinks he knows who it is.

    The Ramseys, in the early am, might have suspected it was Burke and his friend responsible for the crime. But I believe in my heart if Patsy was able to pen this on another kid or an adult that she could identify, she would have screamed to high heavens that very day. No way would she protect or cover up for anyone other than HER son.....not even JR's son, IMO.

    I'm inclinded to agree that there is indeed an adult perp still walking around out there, as the Ramseys have said, and Burke probably DOES know who he is.

    IMO
     
  21. RedChief

    RedChief New Member

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    BlueCrab,

    So, you're saying that John found the body posed indecently early in the AM, relocated it, repositioned it, along with wrapping it in the blanket, and said nothing to the authorities about that, even though leaving it in the condition in which he found it might have aroused less suspicion on their part (if any)?

    IOW, he took a scene that was already likely to convince the authorities that the family wasn't involved, and made it into a scene that caused them to suspect family involvement? Why would he do this? Just wasn't thinking straight?

    The double loop knot is a bit mysterious. Do you think that's an accurate characterization? LE seems to think that at one time the "double loop knot" was fitted around JonBenet's left wrist; so, they're mistaken about this? John initially said her wrists were bound by the cord which has the double loop knot at one end, and that he tried unsuccessfully to untie the cord. Of course, in DOI, where he talks about this, he also says that during the untying operation "everything begins to blur". From DOI, pg. 22, paperback: "I can't stand the sight of her hands [plural] tied and have to do something to get them loose. I start untying her but I can't get the tight knot undone."

    John seems to have gone from thinking that her hands were tightly bound together (told this to LE), to agreeing that they weren't, and posing the "snuff sex" scenario to account for it. Also, he says he didn't see the "garotte" around her neck. How could he have missed it? That the wrist cords were more upsetting to him than the neck cord is hard to fathom.

    How long had JonBenet been hog-tied with her arms and legs pointing up? How can you fit this in with the rigor and the lividity and the position of the arms and legs when she was found, all of which seem to suggest that after she was killed, her body was soon moved to the wine cellar?

    Wouldn't the chair have tipped over? She weighed 45 pounds.
     

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