Ireland Ireland - Sligo, WhtMale, 50-70, aka 'Peter Bergmann', prostate cancer, Jun'09

Discussion in 'The Unidentified' started by Estelle1, Jul 1, 2015.

  1. Triss

    Triss Well-Known Member

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    Bergmann is German for a miner. Perhaps this Doe worked as a miner at some point in his life.
     


  2. aThousandYearsWide

    aThousandYearsWide Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Triss! Doing research now. Found it also can mean "mountain man". A lot of notable Bergmann's were philosophers and a Peter Gabriel Bergmann was a German-American physicist that worked along side Albert Einstein. He died in 2002.

    Sent from my LG-M153 using Tapatalk
     
  3. laraaine

    laraaine New Member

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    Well if we're going down this rabbit hole, the name Peter also comes from the Greek for stone. Stone Miner? Just a coincidence?
     
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  4. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    [video=youtube;Oi2egL21PgY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi2egL21PgY[/video]
     
  5. coffeeandacig

    coffeeandacig ...

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  6. charminglane

    charminglane Helcat!

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    Perhaps the actor Peter Bergman played a part that was this man's real name?

    Peter Bergman roles:
    All My Children - Cliff Warner
    The Young and the Restless - Jack Abbott
     
  7. aThousandYearsWide

    aThousandYearsWide Well-Known Member

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  8. laraaine

    laraaine New Member

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    The Yeats/Sligo thing is curious but I wonder is it a bit of a red herring? Yeats' resting place is in Drumcliff, which is a few miles away from Sligo town. It's a regular tourist attraction, and obviously a big draw for visitors to that area but there's no evidence Bergmann went there during those four days?

    If Yeats was the draw to Sligo, why wouldn't you go to Drumcliff, which is not just where Yeats is buried, but figures hugely in his work?

    (As a curious aside, it's quite likely that Yeats is not buried there at all. He died in France and was buried first at Roquebrune-Cap-Martin in 1939, and his remains moved after WW2 back to Sligo. However, his remains had been mixed with others in an ossuary, and there was difficulty identifying which bones belonged to him. Even at the time, those in charge of his removal were fairly sure they had the wrong remains, but it was all hushed up.
    You can read more about the entire affair here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...bones-sent-to-sligo-were-not-poet-s-1.2288662 )
     
    Mo Thuairim and Laughing like this.
  9. coffeeandacig

    coffeeandacig ...

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    I agree laraaine. WB Yeats could be a red herring, but maybe it's not the actual poet that attracted him but rather the poem "Under Ben Bulben" by WB Yeats.
    Link to this poem: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43298/under-ben-bulben

    On limestone quarried near the spot

    By his command these words are cut: (Peter Bergmann - the stone cutter?)

    Cast a cold eye
    On life, on death.
    Horseman, pass by!

    If I can go wildly down the rabbit hole... Excerpts from the poem "Under Ben Bulben" could be used to trace his footsteps:

    1. Peter Bergmann (the stone cutter creating his own epitaph)

    2. Peter Bergmann is said to have been tan in appearance.

    Swear by what the Sages spoke
    Round the Mareotic Lake
    That the Witch of Atlas knew,
    Spoke and set the cocks a-crow.

    Did Peter Bergmann get his tan from visiting the ancient lake in Egypt?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Mariout

    3. Measurement began our might:
    Forms a stark Egyptian thought,
    Forms that gentler Phidias wrought.

    Next Stop Athens Greece, in search of Phidias sculptures?

    4. Michael Angelo left a proof
    On the Sistine Chapel roof,
    Where but half-awakened Adam
    Can disturb globe-trotting Madam...

    Sistine Chapel, Vatican City and Italy
    Tuscany for 15th Century art (Quattrocento)

    5.
    Gyres run on;
    When that greater dream had gone
    Calvert and Wilson, Blake and Claude
    Prepared a rest for the people of God,
    Palmer's phrase, but after that
    Confusion fell upon our thought.

    William Blakes paintings can be found in London
    , and Claude in Rome and Richard Wilson in Wales.

    6.
    Under bare Ben Bulben's head
    In Drumcliff churchyard Yeats is laid,...

    Sligo in the shadow of Benbulben... Peter Bergmann ended it his way.

    And I was thinking could the 8 stamps be him sending a message to the sites he visited?
    Egypt, Greece, Rome, Vatican City, Tuscany, Wales, London, Sligo
     
  10. PMcDon

    PMcDon New Member

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    I just heard of this case recently, which had surprised me because I am from Sligo and hadn’t heard the story until now. This is only because I had a very busy life at the time and not because of the publicity given. I’m sure most local people were aware of this event, just not me. If anyone needs clarification of ideas or questions that you may have and would like me to provide any information about the local area, I would be happy to assist.
    My 2c worth is that this is a person who was aware that they had a terminal illness and simply wanted to disappear anonymously and without fuss. It’s not completely clear whether he died from drowning because on the documentary about his final days, the doctor states that there were no signs of saltwater drowning (at least external signs). He also offers no explanation of what the cause of death actually was. It’s therefore entirely possible that he succumbed to the illness he was carrying or had another heart attack and may not have really drowned at all.
    Another point I would make is that there is no known connection to WB Yeats whatsoever, other than the fact that it happened in Sligo, which is an area associated with Yeats. It would be like artificially connecting a mystery death in Paris to the Eiffel Tower only because that’s what Paris is known for. There is simply no evidence to suggest that the man had any interest in WB Yeats. He did not go to any location in Sligo that is significant with respect to the poet around the town (there are many). I would also add that every major town or city in Ireland, will have some similar touristic selling point due to the countries rich history but in reality, most visitors come to Sligo because it is an area of outstanding natural beauty.
    My gut feeling is that he had previously visited the town in the past, perhaps during his student days or as part of a family holiday. He may have remembered the area with fondness and decided that it would be the best location to spend his last moments. There are only a handful of international Airports in Ireland. He may have had a connecting flight via the UK into Derry. If you wanted to fly from continental Europe with your ultimate intended destination being Sligo, Derry is a reasonable choice. Only Knock airport is geographically closer, however he most likely took advantage of a budget airline (Ryanair) offer to Derry which can be very inexpensive even including a connection through the UK. An Irish person (with better local knowledge) would most likely opt to fly to Dublin and bus directly from Dublin airport to Sligo, which is probably a marginally better option. But his choice of Derry is completely logical and does not suggest to me that he was being in any way evasive.
    Another observation is that he carried a purple carrier bag when leaving the hotel, but is assumed to have emptied it of personal belongings each day while walking around the town, taking extreme care to evade being recorded by CCTV cameras around the town. This is the reasonable conclusion of the investigating Gardai (Police). However it is based on only the CCTV footage of him leaving with the purple bag and arriving back without it. Because no vendor in Sligo provides purple carrier bags, it is assumed that he has folded it up, put it in his pocket and reused the same bag, which I agree is the most like scenario. The suggestion that he emptied the contents which were his personal belongings into bins while evading cameras though is pure conjecture and is based only on the fact that no CCTV footage was ever found of him emptying the bag’s contents. My own proposal is slightly different and less mysterious:
    There are a class of frugally minded individuals, who see take it as their duty to get the maximum value from their hotel stay. My proposal is that the contents of the bag were 2 croissants, a banana, an apple and a carton of juice from the hotel buffet breakfast offering and perhaps optionally the complimentary newspaper. I propose that he took a stroll along the river when it was afternoon, and found one of many benches, ate his free lunch and then kept the purple bag in his pocket because it is opaque and good for concealing contents. There are no CCTV cameras in the scenic area along the Garavogue river close to Doorley Park. It’s a very short walk from his hotel and would be natural instinct to explore the bank of the river which runs through the town and is pedestrianised. The weather is pleasant in June and I can see any tourist would naturally wander along the riverbank which is initially dotted with cafes etc. but soon leads to a scenic area with moored boats, benches, bins and importantly no CCTV. This is again conjecture, but it removes the need for meticulously planning and deliberately avoiding CCTV cameras. Also, a bar of Hotel soap was found on his body on the beach, and he was seen with a newspaper which suggests that he didn’t have any moral inhibitions in fully availing of the hotel’s hospitality.
    The man suggested to the Taxi driver that he might go to Strandhill beach to swim. The driver however recommended Rosses Point instead. I would have given the exact same advice if I were the driver, because Strandhill is oficially unsafe for swimming due to large crashing waves and rip currents. Rosses Point has a very gentle gradient and is very sheltered, has little waves and is very safe for swimming. So much so, that I would say it would be very poor choice as a place to commit suicide by drowning, because your instinct would be to save yourself by just standing up, as the water remains shallow for a very long distance out from the shore.
    A final point of local knowledge. Sligo is twinned with Crozon in Brittany, France and with Kempten in Bavaria, Germany. Kempten is very close to the Austrian border. If the man was from Kempten in Germany but wanted to give a false address, he would have been familiar enough with Austria to make up an Austrian sounding address. His likely route into Ireland would then be: Munich -> Derry.
     
  11. Giucy

    Giucy Former Member

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    I buy your explanation about being fond of the place, and your warning about artificial connexions between city-murder-monument.

    Welcome to Websleuths PMcDon


    And Happy 2018
     
  12. Moosebegoose

    Moosebegoose Active Member

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    JMO, but I believe that Mr. Bergmann went to Sligo/Ireland because he knew the news (if there were to be any) would not be circulated in his home country?
     
    Mo Thuairim and Laughing like this.
  13. MelmothTheLost

    MelmothTheLost Well-Known Member

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    There's nearly always a waiting period before someone who has disappeared without trace can be legally declared dead (7 years in the UK) which means that their heirs are left in legal limbo with regard to settling the estate, taking control of property etc.

    So unless he really did just up sticks and go to Ireland without a thought for the mess he was leaving behind, there's a good chance that he had nothing to leave, nobody to leave it to, or he settled his affairs completely before he left.
     
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  14. MelmothTheLost

    MelmothTheLost Well-Known Member

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    There are a couple of interesting points in the Wikipedia article about the case:

    I think I've also read that the Gardai didn't conduct any investigations beyond Ireland itself despite the reports of the man having a Germanic accent. It sounds as though they conducted local enquiries, consulted a few databases and then left it at that.

    That's quite a distinctive catalogue of health problems. If he was Austrian (which is as good a place to start as any) I'd have thought enquiries with oncologists and oncology departments would have been worthwhile. A cancer patient with a particular cancer, a history of heart attacks and a kidney missing should be identifiable from hospital records, especially if he subsequently just disappeared and stopped attending appointments, didn't enter a hospice etc.

    Yet the address he gave does not produce a result on Google maps. If it was a valid address, I wonder what had been on that site previously and whether that might be significant.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bergmann_Case
     
  15. sasha17

    sasha17 Curiouser & curiouser

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  16. He had 7 or 8 (?) envelopes (on video) and it was believed, he had them put into a mailbox. The addressees would have known of at least the country, he had been in the end, because of the postmark. If they wanted to know more of him, they could have asked the Ireland police somewhere. So, I think, he settled his affairs as best as he could before his death.
     
  17. Someone on another forum found this man below. The photo of PB (deceased, 2009) and JHK's pic (2004) got layered on top of each other and it shows mostly too much similarity, IMO.
    Please have a look:
    Johannes Huibert Kwist
     
  18. Triss

    Triss Well-Known Member

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    I can definitely see the resemblance.
     
  19. coffeeandacig

    coffeeandacig ...

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    Wow...YES! I hope whoever found him contacted the investigators in Sligo.
     
    Deleted member 102539 and dotr like this.
  20. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Agree..
    Johannes Huibert Kwist
    56 years
    Johannes disappeared with his car. The car was found in France. Since July 4th. 2004 nothing has been heard of Johannes.

    [​IMG]
     

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