Is there any evidence suggesting...?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by leighl, Sep 4, 2006.

  1. leighl

    leighl New Member

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    There is much speculation about the possibility Burke may have accidentally killed JonBenet in a fight over interrupting his time with the new Nintendo he received for Christmas. Anyone who has children (or has spent any time with children/had siblings growing up) understands that there are times of intense sibling rivalry. I’m not suggesting all children are capable of murder, or that all families experience sibling rivalry, just that it is a possibility. I can remember the Atari games from my childhood, if the console got pulled off/fell off the top of the television set, the screen would change to a series of coloured rectangles, the game would be lost, and we would have to shut down/unplug the console entirely, remove the game cartridge, and restart, losing all game memory. This would be enough to make angry a young child who had to put off his game play time to attend a party, only later to have the entire game “broken” by his little sister.

    Is there any evidence suggesting JonBenet was strangled with something other than the nylon cord, that the real tool used for strangling was removed and replaced with the nylon cord as part of "staging"?... perhaps the real tool of strangulation being the cord of the Nintendo?

    Also, for those of you who may have had the N64, would it be strong/heavy enough to crack the skull of a young child?

    In looking at the autopsy photos of JonBenet's cracked skull, has there been any speculation about what type of object would not only a crack, but also make a hole in the middle of the skull? I know theories have been made about the use of a baseball bat, golf club, flashlight, etc. Would any of these objects make the hole and subsequent crack? Perhaps the force of the object that caused the hole resulted in the crack as the impact spread (immediate impact causing the hole, residual force causing the crack)?

    Are there any buttons, controls, plastic bits, etc. on the Nintendo64 consistent with the size of the abrasions found on JonBenet's mandible/back?

    Is there any reason Burke would have had a stun gun? Could he/JB got hold of one at the Christmas Party or in their older sibling’s room? Any information that anyone within/close to the family owned one?

    Just exploring possibilities, I don't want to get into a debate concerning the stun gun theory here, i.e., whether or not people think the abrasions were consistent with a stun gun, even the ME re-evaluated his findings after learning about stun guns. And, in asking this question, I am not idiot enough to think it is reasonable to give a stun gun to a child. Just wondering during 1996 there was a particular interest in such gadgets, a fad among children. When I was young, BB guns and pop guns were popular.

    I have also entertained the idea, as many before have partially suggested, that perhaps the Ramseys purchased a stun gun for Melinda (or Patsy, JAR) as a Christmas present. (I remember in 1996, as a graduate student at a large university, many young women purchased stun guns, pepper spray, etc. after a series of rapes/attacks occurred campus). Maybe Burke was up late after everyone else had gone to bed, JB woke up and used the stun gun to get Burke's attention away from the game/to get him to give her a turn. Or perhaps JB and Burke were playing with the stun gun (anything to do with electricity or fire is very intriguing for a child), and JB collapsed hitting her head against the toliet, bathtub, basin or (?) after being stunned?

    Along these lines, Burke may have awakened his parents and, realizing the severity of the situation, they told Burke to go to bed immediately (maybe they even gave him some Benadryl to fall asleep quickly/deeply), said that they would take care of everything and JB would be fine. Maybe JR/PR called their doctor and on arrival he/she confirmed the inevitable fatality of the head injury.

    Perhaps wishing to shield Burke from the fact that he had killed his sister, JR/PR then concocted the elaborate RN and “staging,” including tying JB's hair up in a top knot to cover the head injury, the focus would then be on the "sexual assault," not the head injury.

    In such a scenario, of course Burke would have been heard saying "What did you find/what happened?" on the 911 tapes, he went to bed believing everything was ok. This cover-up, staging, calling the police, search for the "kidnapper," etc. would be enough to brainwash a young child, make him shift his focus, re-evaluate what happened and encode the information of JB’s injury/death accordingly.

    Regardless of whether or not you believe a stun gun was used, does anyone know if the shock of a stun gun would be enough cause a young child such as JB to collapse?

    It would be interesting to know if Burke had the same type of marks/abrasions.

    As others have postulated on WS's, the possibility that Burke was never questioned extensively/looked at closely because of his age at the time because Colorado law does not allow the prosecution of children. For those of you who know more about this law, would an adult guilty of such a crime as a child be held accountable after they reached adulthood? I understand that there is no statute of limitation concerning murder. Would the law forbid identification of the killer if s/he was a child when it happened but an adult when an admission was made or enough evidence was found?
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    Edit:

    The intention of this strand was to explore the BDI theory. I appreciate the insight provided by IDI and J&PRDI theorists, but for this particular thread and for clarity/organization's sake, please do keep any replies, answers, and comments focused on the BDI theory, particular details and questions arising from this line of thought. I am not intent on pushing the BDI theory, at this point and with the current evidence we have to work with, I don't 100%, wholeheartedly support any particular theory (IDI, RDI, or BDI, etc.), I just want to explore all the possibilities. It is all good and well to note that there is much evidence pointing towards PR/JR and I give such ideas great credience, but there are plenty of other strands to explore such notions. If you do not have any pertinent information to share with regard to the questions at hand, don't feel you have to make a reply just for the sake of making a post. There is really no need to turn every strand of inquiry into a John and/or Patsy did it platform/bashing session. Yes, I hear you RDI theorists, loud and clear!... you not only think the RDI but you have gone to great lengths to support such a notion, over and over again.

    The last ten years of inquiry and theory-making tells us that it is not enough to simply say J&RDI and to keep our focus on ideas that support such a notion only, repeating such theories endlessly. If this was enough, charges would have already been laid against J&PR. Obviously, when the Grand Jury met there were lingering doubts. If you think J&PR did it, good for you for being able to see things with such clarity in light of the fact that not all evidence has been made public/leaked through the media. One of the simplest rules of Logic is to not just look at the idea you are trying to prove, but to also rule out any other likely possibilities. So please, for the sake of logical discussion, let's do try and explore/rule out any other possibilities and not use every single thread as a J&PR bashing session.
     
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  3. tumble

    tumble New Member

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    I have read post about the buttons on the nintendo controls causing the bruises on JBR.

    I have not read anything suggesting that she was strangled with the nintendo cord or struck by the console itself.

    I find you idea interesting that the nintendo console could infact have caused the head injury, the edge of the control could very well fit into the indented part of the skull.
     
  4. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    It seems very unlikely that parents would stage a pervy sex murder - unless to cover up evidence that they (one or both) were molesting JBR. If you assume the Ramseys were not molesting JBR, then this staging becomes really bizzare. If they weren't into AE themselves, why would it even occur to them to stage the scene with a garrotte?

    Burke was 9, he wouldn't be tried as an adult. What's the need for such eleaborate coverup?


    If one of your children bashed the other over the head with a toy and killed her would you stage a pervy sex murder? No, didn't think so.
     
  5. shdbepaintin

    shdbepaintin New Member

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    But why the "pervy" staging at all? Why not just the ransome note? why not just staging a forced entry? Why not take her body outside? If BR did it accidently couldn't the cover up had been less pervy? IF the JR OR PR did it, in a fit of rage, would they want their daughters memory to be surrounded with this Pervy situation? Makes no sense. Nothing in this makes sense. IF an intruder did it, why not take her from the house? WHy the ransome note and then leave her there?
    Of course I know these are all things we have all asked a million times. Just trying to make sense out of something that will never make sense.
     
  6. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Exactly right. No reason for pervy staging unless pervy things were being done to her in the first place.
     
  7. Plenum7

    Plenum7 New Member

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    But why the "pervy" staging at all? Why not just the ransome note? That is what I am wondering too? There are TWO stagings - one in the ransom note and then the way the body has been staged. And they are quite distinct and don't match. Absolutely no sexual elements in the RN. The note threatens "execution" but the body staging doesn't concur with an execution-style set up. The person writing the note and the person staging the body are not in concert. They are both engaged in staging, but otherwise they are making two different types of staging.

    I think there are answers, though, to the following questions:

    "why not just staging a forced entry? Why not take her body outside?"

    The answer is that the Ramseys were attempting to set up their housekeeper.

    I'm new to this case and after only a few days reading through the mess of misinformation I am already firming towards a RDI position. The evidence goes that way. I too wondered why the Ramseys wouldn't just fake a forced entry. They provide the answer to the cops the morning of 26th Dec. They immediately pointed to their housekeeper - and her husband. They had keys. You don't stage a forced entry and you don't take the body outside if you want to frame someone with a key to the house. And you write the ransom note with pen and paper from within the house to suggest the killer knows their way around the house. The housekeeper had asked the Ramseys for money ($2000) on the 24th Dec according to Patsy. That might all explain a lot. Again: You don't stage a forced entry and you don't take the body outside if you want to frame someone with a key to the house.

    Im not convinced either way but RDI seems far more likely on the face of it. The ransom note staging and the body staging are done by different people both engaged in a cover up, but they haven't conferred enough to make the two stagings match. That is striking. Note and body don't match.
     
  8. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Plenum7

    I appreciate your fresh approach. It's difficult for me to look freshly at the case, as I long ago decided the evidence favored the RDI theory.

    As a mental exercise, what if we run with your point that there are two stagings which are not in sync. This suggests two (or more) perpetrators. It's possible the author didn't know what the other perp(s) were doing - either because the author wasn't in on the real plan, or the perps in the basement didn't follow the plan. It's also possible the author left the house before the other perps in the basement.

    As an RDI adherent I could now go into various reasons this scenario is unlikely, but taking a fresh look requires not trying to immediately shoot down any other theory.
     
  9. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    "IF the JR OR PR did it, in a fit of rage, would they want their daughters memory to be surrounded with this Pervy situation?"

    Had to be convincing. That, and to cover other possible activities.

    "There are TWO stagings - one in the ransom note and then the way the body has been staged. And they are quite distinct and don't match. Absolutely no sexual elements in the RN. The note threatens "execution" but the body staging doesn't concur with an execution-style set up. The person writing the note and the person staging the body are not in concert. They are both engaged in staging, but otherwise they are making two different types of staging."

    The FBI called it staging within staging.

    "I too wondered why the Ramseys wouldn't just fake a forced entry. They provide the answer to the cops the morning of 26th Dec. They immediately pointed to their housekeeper - and her husband. They had keys. You don't stage a forced entry and you don't take the body outside if you want to frame someone with a key to the house."

    She was the first person they threw out, wasn't she? Never thought of it from that angle!
     
  10. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    Good thought there with the housekeeper.That might also explain the $118,000,too.Maybe they thought they could convince police that she probably could have seen the pay stub laying around the house somewhere.
     
  11. ChilliPepper

    ChilliPepper New Member

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    *if* things happened quickly from someone inside the house, it would be very difficult to formulate a comprehensive cover-up plan on short notice.
     
  12. tumble

    tumble New Member

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    Maybe they had the whole night thinking about it.
     
  13. angelwngs

    angelwngs New Member

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    Whether the RDI or an IDI, the crime took place inside the home and the 'cover-up' took place inside the home as well. Thus far, it HAS remained a comprehensive cover-up plan done on short notice.

    Either way: family member(s) or an unrelated intruder did it inside the home and covered his/her tracks with confusing evidence quite well. :(
     
  14. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    They also might have wanted to use the housekeeper theory as a reason as to why they didn't have a problem calling police,despite what the note said.Patsy stated in their book she thought, "If it's Linda, she won't hurt her".That explains it pretty well I think.As well as it's also an excuse as to why they weren't more aggressive in trying to find her.
     
  15. sandraladeda

    sandraladeda Inactive

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    P7, I think this is utterly brilliant.

    I was thinking of other reasons not to stage a forced entry. if you were to stage a forced entry, how would you do it? Kick in a door? Smash a window? use some tools to hammer through a door lock?

    All these options would risk a neighbor hearing or seeing them staging the breakin, and it might follow that a neighbor might come and investigate. The Ramsey's might have a hard time explaining why neighbor heard a window being smashed, but they didn't.
     
  16. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    In all probablity, JB had been the victim of chronic sexual abuse, and the paintbrush injury may have served the purpose to hide these signs of abuse.
    But this doesn't necessarily mean the JB was killed in some kind of kinky sex game. In all probablity the head bash came first, and a head bash points to a rage killing imo.
     
  17. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    Imo the two stagings which are not in sync point less to two perps than to one couple frantically trying to throw as much as possible into the mix. Criminal profilers have pointed out that when people who are no professional criminals themselves are trying to stage a scene, they often stage too much.
     
  18. magnolia

    magnolia War Eagle

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    Why would staging a forced entry be necessary? Was there not a broken window in the basement area where the body was found?
    If you wanted to frame someone with a key, would you leave the body in a room within close proximity to the only broken window in the home?
    Let me get this straight. Patsy writes a RN in her own handwriting, didn't give any thought whatsoever to leaving the note-pad,pen and practice sheet in plain view, but she (they) give thought to and discuss how to frame someone for the crime.:waitasec:
     
  19. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    The problem with the housekeeper-framing theory is of course the dead body. If the HK wanted money, she'd have kidnapped JBR. The HK and her husband doing a kinky sex murder in the basement wouldn't be very plausible - even in Boulder.
     
  20. Annette

    Annette Now What Would Nancy Drew Do?

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    Rashomon: I think your thoughts may be close to mine. I keep thinking about how frantic and emotional and erratic this couple's actions must have been in the midst of trying to stage if that's what they did. I know when I've lost a loved one through even natural causes, I wasn't thinking clearly for a couple of days afterwards, I was consumed with the loss. I wonder if PR may have been particularly fragile and JR had to assume the lead. I too wonder about it all beginning with a crushing head blow which could indicate rage, but I don't know who I think the rage was probably aimed at. I keep remembering the info from JR's secretary who seemed to have knowledge (which she supposedly passed a polygraph on) that JR was caught in a molestation by PR, she swung at him and missed but connected on JBR. And I've seen it questioned here that she'd protect JR over that even if it was her error which resulted in the death - but if she were traumatized enough, medicated enough, tired enough, guilt-ridden enough, dependent enough, convinced into being uncertain enough about what she'd seen in the 1st place, or all the above, maybe she could be talked into believing that HER way had gotten them into a world of hurt and now she had better let him use HIS way to get them out - or they stood to lose Burke, the lifestyle, the respect, everything.

    These are just my opinions, thoughts and questions.
    Annette
     
  21. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me New Member

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    Patsy would have had all of the gifts they were taking to Charlevoix already wrapped. If such a gift were to have been given, I highly doubt she would have left it in a place where it could be easily accessible by her young children.


    -Tea
     

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