Israel Keyes: General Discussion

Discussion in 'Israel Keyes' started by bessie, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    As most members that have followed this Israel Keyes ws thread are aware, I have categorized him as an 'emulator' sexual predator/serial killer/bank robber. Emulators are a rare breed, in that they are similar to a copy cat, but copy many serial killers from the past making it very difficult or impossible for FBI VICAP to identify or even detect their existence. Emulators are considered stealth predators..

    A couple days ago while watching a documentary on Discovery ID, I did a double take. The documentary was titled; 'The Friday Night Bank Robber' -->

    <Two teens make an unsettling discovery: someone has been stockpiling weapons in hidden caches throughout the countryside. It isn’t long before an FBI agent connects the strange arsenal to a series of crimes that have baffled the bureau for over 20 years. Ethan Marten stars as Carl Gugasian; 'The Friday Night Bank Robber'..>

    http://ethanmarten.com/2010/02/09/the-hunted-airs-tonight/
    ____________________
    The Friday Night Bank Robber
    Written & Directed by Austin Brink
    Based on the true life story of Carl Gugasian

    http://vimeo.com/81247997
    ___________________

    Imo, there are many similarities between IK's modus operandi in the bank robberies and that of Carl Gugasians'...
     


  2. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Foxfire, I agree, Keyes' bank robberies have many similarities to Gugasian's. However Keyes involved rape and murder in his robberies. Like how he planned to rob a bank with the Curriers car. Or how he apparently abducted Debra Feldman the day before the Tupper lake robbery and used her car? And maybe abducted James Tidwell before his Texas bank robbery. Almost as if he couldn't bring himself to just go out and rape and murder someone. But if he needed a stolen car for a bank job, then well....might as well rape and murder someone in the process of getting it.

    P.s. thanks for the info foxfire, I never heard of Gugasian before your post
     
  3. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Foxfire,
    I'm curious, what makes you classify Keyes as an emulator? And who exactly was he emulating. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I cannot find much information on that term, emulator. Thanks!
     
  4. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    Scoobydoobie, guess you could say that the Emulator classification of a stealth predator/serial killer is a neologism, or newly coined descriptive term, word, that has not yet been accepted due to their unique and rare occurrence, imo.. Emulators are similar to a copy cat, but are hybrids that mirror the profiles and traits of many serial killers from the past

    Emulators are a very rare breed who stalk their prey 24/7-365... Anomolies that escalate with each successful kill, gaining confidence, while remaining stealth, and perfecting their demonic craft..

    IK was was methodical yet unpredictable, selecting victims at random, scouting them for days, and would abort the missions if the conditions were not just right.

    Israel Keyes was a chamelean, a master of Emulation, he was a copycat of many serial killers prior, with added twists of his own creativity to deflect and confuse investigators.. IK had no geographical boundaries, would go dark, utilized disguises, researched/studied predators prior, and emulated the many MOs, tactics, and signatures of other notorious prolific serial killers such as Ted Bundy. IK, had the FBI BAU & VICAP, confused due to his MO & Signatures morphing, and was considered to be a 'Stealth Predator'...

    After studying and researching hundreds of past notorious prolific serial killers. IK is only the second predator that I would classify as an Emulator. The first was Gary Michael <Mack>Hilton... jmo
     
  5. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    I had originally agreed with the emulator title for Keyes when I read your posts over a year ago, but now I'm starting to question the term 'emulator'. For instance, the charactor Jamie Gumm in The Silence of the Lambs may have used Bundy ' s 'arm in a cast' routine to catch his victims, but in really no other way was he imitating bundy or motivated by the same reasons as bundy. He was just using the same 'trick of the trade' to acquire victims. What works, works. Also, being aware of and manipulative of forensics is something common to most serial killers, and is definitely something more common today considering how often forensics are discussed in media. I guess I'm just questioning what the term emulator really tells us about a killer. Or if whether the term could really be applied to any serial killer that has ever learned something from the mistakes of another killer.
     
  6. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    Yes scoobydoobie, all serial killers learn from other serial killers, TV shows such as CSI, Criminal Minds, and will use their tricks of the trade from time to time. Thomas Harris based various elements of Gumb's MO on six real-life killers; Ted Bundy, Ed Gein, Gary Heidnick, etc.. In reality Gumb would have been classified as a hybrid, or Emulator, imo..
     
  7. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Foxfire,
    I just feel like your definition of emulator is too inclusive. I would think that there would be many many more than two emulators out of the hundreds of killers studied. But if Keyes was an emulator then I'd say he very much copied BTK, and was not really at all like Bundy as is usually cited. He had kill kits and meticulously planned multi strangulations like BTK and not spur of the moment beatings like Bundy. Maybe Keyes aspired to be a charismatic liar who could kill at a moments notice anywhere like bundy, but in practice he seemed to be super cautious like BTK. He also apparently sent taunting messages to authorities like BTK. But BTK must be an emulator too! BTK made statements that he read everything about the Zodiac killings as those crimes happenned, and eventually sent notes to authorities just like Zodiac, even some with 'clues' to his ID. So BTK seemed to emulate zodiac and probably other crime novel killers he read about. And the zodiacs taunting letters emulated the "dear boss" letters. And so on and so on. But I don't see why Hilton is an emulator. Or why emulators are necessarily 'stealth hunters'

    I hope I don't sound like too much of an *******. I truly appreciate your posts, the skeptic in me tends to argue everything way too much...
     
  8. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    No worries, Scoobydoobie. I am sure there prolly are more than two serial killers that could be classified as Emulators.. Guess, they have yet to be identified or captured, imo.
    There are virtually to many reasons to list as to why Hilton<GMH> would be classified as an Emulator. How many serial killers past came up with the plot and helped write the script for a 'hunting humans' movie, and then tutored the lead actor in the art of serial killing, over a decade before his identification and arrest?

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/03/13/hilton.movie/index.html?eref=ib_topstories
    When attorney-turned-movie producer Samuel Rael decided he wanted to make a film about a serial killer in 1995, it was former legal client Gary Michael Hilton who he says came up with the plot.

    Deadly Run Movie Trailer-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJosMwx1uxc
    ________________________________

    BTK began his trail of terror by copying the original CA Night Stalker - Also known by the monikers "East Area Rapist," the "Diamond Knot Killer," and more recently the "Golden State Killer," the Original Night Stalker is a serial killer and rapist who was active in California in the 1970s and 1980s and was never identified or apprehended .
     
  9. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Oh wow, I didn't know all that info about GMHilton. I remember reading about him in the news when he was arrested but I thought he had just killed that one girl. At the time he seemed like a nothing drifter idiot. And she was so smart and healthy, and he was a ****ing loser idiot, yet she still died in the end. I remember being very bummed out reading about it at work. The kind of depressing story that makes me question why I spend time reading this stuff. And I remember reading the attorney-producer story in the news too but I didn't know they were the same guy. Foxfire, you keep turning me on to interesting things to read about. Thank you, seriously! But I still don't see why he is an Emulator and BTK is not.

     
  10. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Super cautious? I disagree with one of my older posts. The Koenig abduction didn't seem very super cautious. Other things too didn't seem 'super cautious'.
     
  11. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    Scoobydoobie, LE; GBI & UCSO via ms media portrayed GMH as a drifter, petty thief, and vagabond. They were wrong.. GMH's IQ was within the top 10% of the nation, and according to GMH, he had been active for over four decades. Due to emulating other SKs, GMH's MO, signature, etc., was all over the board and he had no victim profile.. GMH, apprehended at age 61, was not on any federal, state, or local law enforcement's radar.. GMH was considered a stealth predator..

    Mystery on Blood Mountain
    http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dateline/55844223#55844223
     
  12. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    I posted the article linked below in the Media Thread a few days ago -- thought I would bring it here as well. I could not find a date, really, on the article, but it did say it was "last modified" in early February, so I'm thinking it's fairly recent. There were a few interesting things in it, I thought; but it is really discouraging that it seems not much progress has been made in discovering who Keyes' unknown victims are.

    more at: http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20150202/NEWS/302029967
     
  13. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    According to a comment left on facebook by Nancy Fessel, regarding Keyes and his NY property...

    "Nancy Larson Fessel-
    They lived down the road from us here in Constable. We had met them at some point, and I had met, I guess it was the father, an older man, when he came to the Free Trader where I worked, and was wondering if there was a dentist who didn't require x-rays if you went for an exam. We thought that a bit strange. Then we heard they had moved to Maine. Shortly after that some U.S. Marshall's also came to the Free Trader and asked us if we knew where they had moved. So we told them we thought Maine. We thought they were in the Witness Protection Program or something like that. Weird."

    Maybe the house and land Israel somehow bought on the other side of the country, when he was only 18 years old, was actually given to him by the feds for turning rat on his friends, the Kehoes. The Keyes and the Kehoes, both "extremist" families, are from the same town with a population of only 4000. They had to have known each other. Well, probably knew each other. Anyway, in June '97 the Kehoes are arrested. By October '97 Keyes is suddenly living on the other side of the country. How many 18 year olds have you known that could save up tens of thousands of dollars. And on top of that, he apparently saved that up while being amish?

    Also...

    http://www.wcax.com/story/19150460/how-murder-suspect-israel-keyes-is-linked-to-our-region

    This article also left me feeling suspicious. Why would Keyes move wayyyyy out there when most everyone in that small close knit town knew each other. What made him pick Constable? Also, the guy in the article who wanted to buy the property couldn't find information on it. Was Keyes in the Witness protection program? Was his dad was on the run from the cops?
     
  14. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    I'm really surprised there isnt more interest in finding his other victims. The FBI believes he killed 11 people, and since only 3 have been attributed to him that leaves EIGHT UNSOLVED MURDERS!!!

    I'm pretty much the only person posting anymore about this case. Seems like law enforcement doesn't care either. I repeat, EIGHT UNSOLVED MURDERS.
     
  15. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    Really wish the FBI would release SOMETHING else about IK.
     
  16. Aynia

    Aynia New Member

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    I have this feeling from the time I learned about Keyes that he killed many many more, I wish some day we'd get to know the full extent of his crimes but unfortunately without him around that's impossible and the FBI sure knows that, IMHO they won't be able to link anything else to Keyes than what we already know.
     
  17. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Aynia,

    What? So your saying that if he is dead that it is "IMPOSSIBLE" to solve any of the crimes he committed? You make it sound like there is no trail of evidence, and that the only way we could discover his crimes is from his own confession. That is bs. He wasn't some super duper no evidence killer. For instance:

    W/ the Curriers, they make it seem like he did so much to make sure he left no trail of evidence, fly from Alaska to Chicago, drive very, very far to Vermont and then kill with a "kill kit". But that whole story is bs because he was checked into the Handy Suites in Essex when he kidnapped the Curriers...from Essex. If he was so meticulous he wouldn't have been checked into a hotel in his own name the same day he abducted someone from that same town. He was meticulous, but not perfect like they make it seem. Being checked into a hotel in your own name in the same town, being spotted by an eye witness, possibly leaving DNA in the curriers saturn, etc. Meh, maybe your right though, 8 unsolved murders should just be forgotten, he's dead. Wait, you think many more than 8 murders, yeah, forget the extra murders too.

    Aynia, I don't mean to attack you, I've been drinking and the whole 'give up' attitude with his 8+ murdered victims is frustrating to me. Regardless of content, thanks for posting, I'd rather have someone disagree and debate with me than just ignore me :)
     
  18. shandram19

    shandram19 Active Member

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    I was reading something a couple months back in a book written by Peter Vronsky, that fit Keyes description pretty well. I meant to post it here then but I was very,busy writing a report for my forensics class. Unfortunately I let a friend borrow that book, so I will have to post what I read after I get the book back. It had something to do with sadistic-excitation type serial killers. I'm pretty sure that was the term that was used. Scoobydoobie, I'm sorry you feel like you've been the only one posting. I follow along but don't really have much to add until I get that book back. Thanks for all your hard work!
     
  19. scoobydoobie

    scoobydoobie New Member

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    Instead of bumping I'll just let go of another thought I've been holding onto...

    I had wondered of Keyes killed the McStay family. Based mostly upon how their mystery, and the Jamison family mystery, were both solved in quick succession after Keyes died. But I like him for the Jamison family much more because of a couple things:

    1. In one of the released audio tapes a female investigator mentions finding real estate listing searches on Keyes computer. I believe he initially looked into the listings as a way to save $ on his long road trips. Instead of staying in a $50 - $100 room every single night, he could just park his rental car and/or pitch a tent behind an unoccupied listing. Note in the timeline how there were gaps between hotel stays. But then he figured out he could also bring kidnapped victims to such desolate locations (e.g. the Curriers and the unoccupied house for sale on main st essex). Maybe this modus operandi led him to the Jamison family who were out real estate shopping without an agent (read their story)

    2. Keyes also made a comment in the audio about having thought out plans to shoot out someone's tire in the middle of nowhere, but then soon went on to talk about how gullible people are far out in the wilderness. I, for some reason, imagined him saying this in a
    sly reference to how well he conned the Jamison family that day into thinking he was showing them 'some land his family owned' or something like that. He liked being sly, right?

    3. The Jamison's truck was driven to a spot, they were marched and murdered and buried. And then their truck was returned to the approximate spot that he bagan this bs. Car jacking is very much a part of Keyes methods I think. He knew it made things harder for investigators as long as he didn't leave any evidence in the vehicle. The Jamison's were car jacked. They did not hike or walk to where their bodies were found imo.

    4. Are the Jamison's the victims that he said he buried by a valley. Topo images of that area make it seem like maybe they are, but I didn't put much effort into that.

    5. If I remember right the timeline showed him in the general area. South - oklahoma?
    In other words, bump. Fml.
     
  20. digndoodle

    digndoodle New Member

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    THANKS for your post scoobydoobie, I agree with everything you said here 100%, always had Keyes picked for the Jamison Family, for the reason so much in that case fits with all we know about Keyes and in my opinion it very well could be the victim's he stated he buried in a valley

    I will only add, the real-estate listings found may have been that of the girlfriend since she was a real-estate broker

    thanks again for your posts
     

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