Israel Keyes: General Discussion

Discussion in 'Israel Keyes' started by bessie, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. dub

    dub Well-Known Member

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    I so wish I had some idea of what it is about those two specific trips that LE is so dialed in on beyond all the others, especially because on the surface those two seem diametrically opposed to one another.

    Like, to me the first one you listed is probably the most bonkers trip on the entire timeline (the two that I find the strangest are that one and the 04 New Hampshire trip I mentioned before), but solely based on the travel logistics the CA trip appears to be one of the most normal/innocuous.

    Obviously the FBI highlights those particular trips for reasons much, much deeper than the itineraries themselves, and obviously those reasons are none of my business. But man it makes me wonder.
     
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  2. MesquiteO21

    MesquiteO21 Please take the time to read "The Gift of Fear"

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    FBI Requests the Public’s Assistance in Case of Serial Killer Israel Keyes

    "Keyes provided additional details regarding the abduction and murder of a female. The female is described as having pale skin, possibly having a wealthy grandmother, and driving an older car at the time of her abduction."

    i feel like this is enough info that someone could know of a missing person who fits this description??? although what exactly is meant by "older" car? there's a difference between a car being like 15 years old or something and being a "classic"
     
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  3. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    He had a sister who lived outside Fort Wayne along the OH line, Harlan area. Which might explain a side trip.

    JMO
     
  4. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    I think you're on to something, it may apply to the LS case or it may not, but at any rate a WH stood mere blocks from IU until 2013:

    Photos: Waffle House closes doors after 46 years | Local | hoosiertimes.com
     
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  5. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    My theory about his New Hampshire trips is felt comfortable in the woods and small towns, there, and it was fairly close to Constable, NY.

    The post in the "Possible Sightings" section where a gal relates an encounter they had at a nice park in NH gives me chills, I think he was unable to kill on some of his 'outings', so he had to quickly change tactics, terrain, MO, etc., to get his kill fix.

    JMO
     
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  6. dub

    dub Well-Known Member

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    I mostly agree with this, but that particular trip feels different to me.

    1745 miles is a TON of driving to do within a relatively small geographical area (New England and upstate NY). None of his other trips to that area have even close to that level of mileage (the closest is just over 1000, on the trip where Keyes killed Debra Feldman and robbed the Tupper Lake bank), and it's also the only trip on the timeline anywhere prior to 2007 with mileage in that range.

    Something was up on that trip, although obviously it's impossible to say whether he actually did kill someone then. I think either way it's likely that he killed someone, probably in the PNW, shortly before going to New Hampshire.

    I don't have a good sense of who that might be; on Charley Project only Glenn Pennie fits timing and location wise (and he does fit those things very well), but it sounds like there's a POI and a pretty good idea of what happened in his case.

    Glenn Warren Pennie – The Charley Project
     
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  7. dub

    dub Well-Known Member

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    Another possibility for a PNW victim prior to the New Hampshire trip: Richard Lee, camper/hiker that went missing in the Wenatchee National Forest around 9/9/04.

    Hiker missing

    He's not on Charley Project or NAMUS. I was aware of him before and thought he could potentially be a Keyes victim but never put 2 + 2 together on the timing. It's not super close timing-wise to his NH trip like Glenn Pennie, but it is within a month.

    For what it's worth, the place he went missing is relatively close to Ellensburg, and even closer (maybe 15 miles as the crow flies, although quite a bit further by road) to where Gregrey Brown disappeared the following year.

    Consider this next part RUMOR because I can't find a MSM source for it right now, but apparently during the search his campsite was found and appeared undisturbed, Richard was just gone.
     
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  8. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    In my mind, the latter fits in perfectly with a IK-type attack.

    JMO
     
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  9. Murkywaters

    Murkywaters Well-Known Member

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    https://player.fm/series/true-crime-bullsh/ep-0405-mythology

    The latest episode is interesting. It discusses one of Keyes ''dark spots'' and its possible connection to a victim. There was a married couple in Neah Bay which Keyes and Kimberly apparently spent a lot of time with camping, fishing, and hanging out etc. Considering their friendship, the wife told investigators she thought it was strange Keyes was notably absent from her anniversary party on March 28, 04, 05, or 06. The woman wasn't sure of the year. However, Josh discovered 2004 is probably the year she was referring to as it is the only year where Keyes can't be placed anywhere on March 28th. Additionally, March 28, 2004 is the only year where the party could have occurred on a weekend.

    Well, March 28, 2004 was the date where a Makah woman who used to live in Neah Bay went missing from Tacoma, WA. Her name was Giovanna Tyler. Giovanna Katie Tyler – The Charley Project Giovanna was the victim of horrible domestic violence at the hands of her husband at the time of her disappearance, and sought an order of protection against him in 2003. He has allegedly been cooperative with the investigation.

    Now here where it gets interesting, Keyes and Giovanna very well may have known each other. They lived in the same tight knit community (Neah Bay) had kids the same age and lived less than 1000 ft apart. Also... Curiously on the evening of February 29, 2004 Tammy and Keyes got in a physical fight after she caught him messaging with an unknown woman. Police were called and Keyes was taken to the Makah Tribal Police station for a domestic violence incident report. That very same night, Giovanna was pulled over in Neah Bay for driving with a suspended license and was taken to the Makah Tribal Police station as well. Giovanna Tyler and Israel Keyes sat in the same tiny, Tribal police station on the same night. A month later, Giovanna disappeared on a night where Keyes can't be accounted for.
     
  10. dub

    dub Well-Known Member

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    I've been looking into this and I think, based on the description and potential connections to NAMUS 44, there's a possibility this could be referring to Anita Scott.

    Anita Scott – The Charley Project

    -She definitely appears to have "pale skin"

    -She had not a wealthy grandmother, but a wealthy uncle, who left her millions of dollars when he died

    -She drove a '86 Volkswagen, which is notably kind of odd for someone of her age and means (and we also know that Keyes specifically differentiated between newer and older style VW's from his description of the "newer" VW bug that his near-victim in Vermont drove)


    And she could be linked to the NAMUS 44 as follows:

    -Richard Petrone and Danielle Imbo disappeared on 2/19 or early 2/20 of 2005, from Philadelphia

    -Anita disappeared on 2/20/2003, from just outside Philadelphia, and her car was subsequently found in Philadelphia

    -(slightly more tenuous) Tony Luzio from NAMUS 44 disappeared from Delaware County, Ohio; Anita disappeared from Delaware County, Pennsylvania


    I am up to date on TCBS now, but I didn't write down the timeline of when Keyes is/isn't accounted for outside of the FBI timeline, so I'm not sure if her disappearance clashes with those dates, but as far as I know it does not. I do know, though, that Josh strongly believes there is at least one unknown victim from PA, although his rationale for that was somewhat more vague than most of his strong beliefs related to Keyes.

    Thoughts?
     
  11. Murkywaters

    Murkywaters Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, only seeing this now. Hmmmm! I think Anita sounds like a good possibility for the victim Keyes was describing. The fact Anita disappeared while driving and her car later being found in Philadelphia is quite interesting as Keyes is known for having stalked and followed victims whilst they were driving. He also stated he would move cars long distances to throw off LE. Also, the novel Intensity, by Deal Koontz which Keyes claimed to have gotten ideas from involves the antagonist driving victims off the road.

    You should email Josh regarding Anita, he might be able to look into further.
     
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  12. dub

    dub Well-Known Member

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    I just emailed Josh, I'll update if I hear anything back.

    I thought about it for a while, and what pushed me over the edge to email him is I realized there's another possible NAMUS 44 connection--Jennifer Marcum, who disappeared just three days before Anita--and I'm pretty sure I remember Josh saying on the podcast that he couldn't rule Keyes out on JM based on known whereabouts (which would mean there's a good chance he couldn't rule him out on Anita either).
     
  13. MesquiteO21

    MesquiteO21 Please take the time to read "The Gift of Fear"

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    ah very interesting! good find. i think she's definitely a possibility.

    i had forgotten about Richard and Danielle being on the NAMUS 44....do we think it's a possibility he was involved in that disappearance, or they were one of those he just happened upon while searching his victims?
     
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  14. dub

    dub Well-Known Member

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    I'm torn on Richard and Danielle as potential Keyes victims.

    My gut feeling has always been that Keyes was not involved, but I've never seen anything suggesting he could be conclusively ruled out, and consider it an outside possibility.

    I do think they are among the more likely actual victims in the NAMUS 44, but still I'm like 85/15 against.
     
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  15. carolann0308

    carolann0308 Active Member

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    I've always wondered how many of the crimes attributed to Keyes actually happened or were his doing. Anyone can read the paper and get small details about murders. But when there is no body or crime scene? I know he killed Samantha that is quite obvious, but so many other crimes connected to him came from his boasting during interviews giving little snippets of information. Was LEO trying to close cold cases similar to the dozens Henry Lee Lucas confessed to? The fact that he committed suicide seems so out of character for a man that considered himself smarter than most like Ted Bundy did. Narcissists rarely feel responsible for anything but they love publicity
     
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  16. cujenn81

    cujenn81 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think he felt remorse or guilt about the people he murdered. I just think he relished the fact that LE needed something from him and wanted to go out while he still had the upper hand.

    The difference between someone like Keyes and someone like Bundy is that I really believe he loved his daughter in his own way. He truly didn’t want his crimes made known to the public or his name in the press because he didn’t want his daughter to suffer for his crimes. He didn’t want her life to be defined by her connection to him. When it became obvious to Keyes that the FBI couldn’t prevent the press from digging around, he killed himself and took the information with him to the grave.

    If you look at the FBI interviews (or even just the timeline of those interviews), you can see when and why he really gave up.

    2012

    March 30 - the first time Keyes reveals that he has “more to tell” and talks about this other life he lives that his family doesn’t know about

    April 1 - gives the details about SK’s abduction and murder

    April 2 - offers up just enough information to confirm he’s telling the truth about killing the Curriers; says he’s willing to lead the FBI to their bodies and the bodies of other victims if certain conditions are met and expedited

    April 6 - gives detailed information about the abduction and murder of the Curriers

    May 24 - voices his frustration regarding a communication breakdown and expresses concern about media attention

    May 29 - FBI presents Keyes with a letter from VT saying they will agree not to prosecute him on a state level so long as he continues to give the FBI information about his other victims; Keyes said he wasn’t willing to talk about his other victims yet

    (Keyes was concerned that if he gave the FBI information about his victims in various states that state prosecutors would want him tried on a state level — which would drag on for years and years and he wouldn’t get a speedy execution.)

    June 1 - FBI submits request for interview but Keyes declines

    June 14 - FBI submits request for interview but Keyes declines

    June 29 - FBI submits request for interview but Keyes declines

    July 20 - FBI presents Keyes with a press agreement with VT; Keyes says he will have to research the agreement terms and respond

    July 26 - FBI attempts to interview Keyes but he is agitated; says he’s bored and not happy about the press in VT

    August 1 - FBI submits request for interview but Keyes declines

    This information comes from my personal notes while going thru the public FBI documents. I don’t have anything else regarding the interviews after August and then he committed suicide in December.
     
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  17. cujenn81

    cujenn81 Well-Known Member

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    I just finished the most recent episode of TCB and all I can say is WOW!! I am so very impressed with the research and their ability to find needles in haystacks and connect the dots! The amount of time and effort put into this work must be staggering, and I hope they know how much it’s valued and appreciated by justice seekers like ourselves.
     
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  18. MesquiteO21

    MesquiteO21 Please take the time to read "The Gift of Fear"

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    this is something i've grappled with. i generally feel that his interviews with the FBI were truthful, however this is someone who was a manipulative psychopath who enjoyed toying with people. So when i listen to the tapes i'm left thinking "is this truth, or was he messing with the interrogators and purposely leading them astray?" it's something we're very unlikely to ever know.
     
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  19. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    I think it's both.

    His conscience was finally getting to him, so I think he wanted to do roundabout confessions of sorts. At the same time, he had to have some semblance of control over the situation, meaning the FBI wanted information but he was going to be stingy about what he revealed. Obvious to me he was uncomfortable with talking about some of the murders, too, so it's like he wanted to talk, but his nature and general mentality was still mostly in control of his mind.

    JMO
     
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  20. Murkywaters

    Murkywaters Well-Known Member

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    Bump! Since the last post there have been two more episodes of TCB that have dropped.

    https://player.fm/series/true-crime-bullsh/ep-0408-bodies-pt-1

    The latest episode discusses particular UID's in Washington that could be related to Keys, two however are of particular interest

    WA - WA - Lake Tapps, human remains found at vacant lot, 28 August 2019 This is the first Doe that is discussed. Skeletal remains of a white female estimated to be 18-50 in age was discovered by construction workers on a abandoned property in Lake Tapps, WA on Aug 28, 2019. The workers were on site to demolish an abandoned trailer home on the property. They workers found a recycling bin which was too heavy to move, when they emptied the contents that's when they found the remains.

    Josh's team tried to determine when its likely the remains were dumped at the location. By looking at the property from Google Earth, it appears well occupied in June 2002, but by March 2005 the property started looking less and less occupied. They estimate the body likely may have been placed on the property sometime between 2004-2008.

    - Lake Tapps is less than 30 miles from Fort Lewis where Keyes was stationed.

    - Cell phone pings place Keyes driving past Lake Tapps on Oct 21, 2004.

    - Trailer homes come up multiple times in Keyes FBI interviews, with him setting one on fire, breaking and entering and even staying in one for short while. Real estate images show the Lake Tapps trailer was broken into sometime between 2003-2018 with the rear sliding glass door being shattered.

    - Unfortunately, there are zero rule-outs on NamUs for this Jane Doe. It would be interesting to know whether Giovanna Katie Tyler has been ruled out.

    Below are photos of the property where the remains were discovered.

    9th Street E., near Evergreen Point, Lake Tapps, WA
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021 at 5:54 AM
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