Israel Keyes: General Discussion

SolVic

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Okay, I’m probably getting some stuff wrong here, but let’s try to narrow down the eleven victims. For now, let’s just focus on them specifically instead of guessing if there are any additional ones.

So it was five in Washington, two in New York(?), two in Vermont (Bill and Lorraine Currier), New Jersey(?) (Debra Feldman?), and Alaska (Samantha Koenig). Let’s go over what information Keyes gave on the victims.

I should first note that according to Keyes, Bill Currier was the only victim who was shot. Almost all the other victims were strangled. He said there was one exception in which the victim struggled too much and he had to beat/bludgeon him or her instead. So let’s maybe rule out any stabbings or shootings.

Let’s start with the Washington victims. Keyes said that he committed his first murder in 2001, shortly after being discharged. It apparently occurred in Neah Bay. The victim was either submerged in a lake (possibly Lake Crescent) or buried. Then as early as 2001 or as late as 2005, he killed an unnamed couple. Both victims were buried. Finally, in 2005 or 2006, two people were murdered. It’s unknown if they were killed at the same time or if the incidents took place separately, but Keyes claimed that the victims were unrelated. One of them was buried while the other was submerged in a lake (possibly Lake Crescent). One of these victims could possibly be Delmar Sample, a 52-year-old man who vanished on March 4, 2005.

I think Keyes also confessed to two murders in New York, but I might be getting the state wrong. I also don’t recall if he mentioned any possible years. He said that one victim was a woman with an old car. He also said that the victim claimed to have a wealthy grandmother. The other victim may be the most frustrating of all: Keyes said that he or she actually was found, but his or her death had been ruled as an accident.
 
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SolVic

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Okay, I’ve reached a conclusion. It’s my own opinion, though, so feel free to tell me why you think I’m wrong.

First, I’d like to say that I now believe some of the victims are one and the same. The person who was found but was believed to have died an accidental death is most likely the first victim. I think Keyes said the victim was male and that he had strangled him. The victim was probably a neighbor, as he had disappeared and was later found dead. Second, while Delmar Sample hasn’t been conclusively ruled out as a victim, I think the FBI admitted that he was most likely wasn’t killed by Keyes. So I’ll be fair and exclude him.

The unnamed couple killed between 2001 and 2005 might’ve been 18-year-old Eugene Hyatt and 16-year-old Kami Vollendroff, who were last seen on November 21, 2001. I know Keyes said he didn’t kill children, but it’s possible that he thought Kami was older than she actually was. Alternatively, he could’ve been referring to small children instead of anyone under the age of 18.

The two victims killed in 2005 or 2006 were possibly 44-year-old Wendy Dehoop (disappeared on April 22, 2005) and 52-year-old Stephen Mason (disappeared on June 20, 2006).

The pale-skinned woman with an old car and a wealthy grandmother could’ve been 58-year-old Anita Scott, who vanished February 20, 2003. It should be noted that she had a wealthy uncle, not a grandmother. Of course, Keyes probably just misremembered.

Finally, there’s 58-year-old James Tidwell, who hasn’t been seen since February 15, 2012. Keyes robbed a bank while wearing a dark-haired wig and a white hard hat. Not only did James own a white hard hat, but his hair resembled the wig… which Keyes later admitted was actually human hair. (This is the stuff of nightmares.)

TL;DR: Here’s my list of what I believe to be the eleven victims:

Keyes’ neighbor
Eugene Hyatt
Kami Vollendroff
Anita Scott
Wendy Dehoop
Stephen Mason
Debra Feldman
Bill Currier
Lorraine Currier
Samantha Koenig
James Tidwell
 

dub

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Okay, I’ve reached a conclusion. It’s my own opinion, though, so feel free to tell me why you think I’m wrong.

First, I’d like to say that I now believe some of the victims are one and the same. The person who was found but was believed to have died an accidental death is most likely the first victim. I think Keyes said the victim was male and that he had strangled him. The victim was probably a neighbor, as he had disappeared and was later found dead. Second, while Delmar Sample hasn’t been conclusively ruled out as a victim, I think the FBI admitted that he was most likely wasn’t killed by Keyes. So I’ll be fair and exclude him.

The unnamed couple killed between 2001 and 2005 might’ve been 18-year-old Eugene Hyatt and 16-year-old Kami Vollendroff, who were last seen on November 21, 2001. I know Keyes said he didn’t kill children, but it’s possible that he thought Kami was older than she actually was. Alternatively, he could’ve been referring to small children instead of anyone under the age of 18.

The two victims killed in 2005 or 2006 were possibly 44-year-old Wendy Dehoop (disappeared on April 22, 2005) and 52-year-old Stephen Mason (disappeared on June 20, 2006).

The pale-skinned woman with an old car and a wealthy grandmother could’ve been 58-year-old Anita Scott, who vanished February 20, 2003. It should be noted that she had a wealthy uncle, not a grandmother. Of course, Keyes probably just misremembered.

Finally, there’s 58-year-old James Tidwell, who hasn’t been seen since February 15, 2012. Keyes robbed a bank while wearing a dark-haired wig and a white hard hat. Not only did James own a white hard hat, but his hair resembled the wig… which Keyes later admitted was actually human hair. (This is the stuff of nightmares.)

TL;DR: Here’s my list of what I believe to be the eleven victims:

Keyes’ neighbor
Eugene Hyatt
Kami Vollendroff
Anita Scott
Wendy Dehoop
Stephen Mason
Debra Feldman
Bill Currier
Lorraine Currier
Samantha Koenig
James Tidwell

FBI hasn't ruled Del Sample out as a potential victim, according to TCBS they actually think there's a very high likelihood that he was one. I feel like you're right that they did say at one point they didn't think he was, but then they walked it back.

It's also possible you're thinking of Gilbert Gilman, who disappeared from Washington very close to both when and where either Del Sample or Stephen Mason disappeared (can't remember which) and seemed like a very plausible victim, but they more or less ruled Keyes out on him.

After listening to TCBS I'm firmly in the camp that believes Keyes killed quite a bit more than 11 people (I'd guess the true number is roughly double that), but I think everyone on your list is at least a strong possibility.

The two people I'd add to the list that I think it's overwhelmingly likely that Keyes is responsible for are the aforementioned Del Sample and Suzy Lyall. I have plenty of others I have strong suspicions about, but on those two I am close to 100%.
 

dub

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Also slightly OT but I really want to know how the FBI ended up ruling out Gilbert Gilman, less because of Keyes and more because Gilman was a CIA spook or something and I'm pretty sure I read at one point that the FBI determined he was probably alive and just took off, presumably because he was mixed up in some bad *advertiser censored*.

I want to know Gil Gilman's whole story!
 

dub

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An incomplete list of others I think are pretty likely victims:

Cynthia Marl (Washington)
Marble Arvidson (Vermont)
Guy whose name I can't recall in Riverside CA (Robert something?)
Kelly Ackernecht (sp?) (New York)
Chris Roof (Maine)
Mark Oldbury (Texas)

A couple cases with minimal information out there but I wonder:

Richard Lee [NOT Richard Lee Haynes from the same area] (Washington)
Steven Willard Anderson (Utah)
 

Snoopster

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FBI hasn't ruled Del Sample out as a potential victim, according to TCBS they actually think there's a very high likelihood that he was one. I feel like you're right that they did say at one point they didn't think he was, but then they walked it back.

It's also possible you're thinking of Gilbert Gilman, who disappeared from Washington very close to both when and where either Del Sample or Stephen Mason disappeared (can't remember which) and seemed like a very plausible victim, but they more or less ruled Keyes out on him.

After listening to TCBS I'm firmly in the camp that believes Keyes killed quite a bit more than 11 people (I'd guess the true number is roughly double that), but I think everyone on your list is at least a strong possibility.

The two people I'd add to the list that I think it's overwhelmingly likely that Keyes is responsible for are the aforementioned Del Sample and Suzy Lyall. I have plenty of others I have strong suspicions about, but on those two I am close to 100%.

Sorry in advance, as I haven't followed IK's threads for a while, but who is TCBS? And where did you see that Del Sample is presumed to be a very possible victim?? I'm a follower of the Del Sample case and even called in (to local LE) the possibility that he could be an IK victim. So your comment intrigues me.
 

cujenn81

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Sorry in advance, as I haven't followed IK's threads for a while, but who is TCBS? And where did you see that Del Sample is presumed to be a very possible victim?? I'm a follower of the Del Sample case and even called in (to local LE) the possibility that he could be an IK victim. So your comment intrigues me.
Not the original poster but TCBS = True Crime Bulls*** (podcast about IK). They are extremely thorough in their research, and at least one police department has reopened a case because of their findings.
 

Morbid Generosity

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You can't or won't ever have a realistic count of native men and women gone missing online and even with a trusted relationship the generational shame and privacy entangled within these communities would still be hard to get through to find who we should be asking questions about. Israel learned from his predecessors, hunt from a pool of the invisible and while he was getting his sea legs he let them swim to him. Tribal Gaming Commission would be the most concrete place to cross reference at risk individuals but LE already knows and has contingent access to that data. I don't see any reason why they would publicly comment on cases that would further instigate tensions or outcry. I'm hopeful the recent awareness of MMIW will dry up another victim pool for our sharks.
 

cujenn81

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I’ve been meaning to share my Israel Keyes notes for a while now but always seem to forget. I’m leaving this here to remind myself to share them when I can get to my computer, as they are much too lengthy to copy and paste using my phone.

(They were mostly compiled using info obtained from the FBI file documents and interviews. I just grouped all of the information in a way that was easier for me to understand.)
 

imstilla.grandma

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NorthErn2

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SPOILER***

In the recent TCB episode at the very end the psychologist Josh was interviewing recommended to him that he take a serious look into the case of Jennifer Kesse as a potential Keyes victim, something Josh had early on dismissed.
Just wondering what everyone thoughts on this are? For me I am not really sure, they are definitely aspects of the case that could be connected to Keyes but these aspects are some of the most broad IMO.
 

Morbid Generosity

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SPOILER***

In the recent TCB episode at the very end the psychologist Josh was interviewing recommended to him that he take a serious look into the case of Jennifer Kesse as a potential Keyes victim, something Josh had early on dismissed.
Just wondering what everyone thoughts on this are? For me I am not really sure, they are definitely aspects of the case that could be connected to Keyes but these aspects are some of the most broad IMO.
I think he bragged about his trophy kills, those that would strike the most fear and the rest were closer to home than he wanted to admit. I believe some women/men/transindiv paid for the resentment he had for addicts because of his daughter's mother and it's likely he would have homage kills in locations near to Bundy's. Ps Bundy's mom had a place in Port Angeles. Kesse just feels too assertive for him. I think he had more sexual confusion than the manical sexual exploration of Ted and I think we're missing at least one gay male/transexual possible addict victim. I know, not exactly the most reported missing/murdered subset. Is it more important to tie him to cases of publicity to match his infamy or solve the truth of his crimes? I admit I'm not sure the fBI hasn't already done that. But if they have I think it's important to let the public know. Know if the boogeyman was as big as he said. If there are still horrifying surprises just waiting to washout with the hillsides. Or if his remaining victims he kept private because they revealed too much of his head. They still deserve mourning, he didn't reveal enough so far as we know to keep those secrets.
 

dub

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SPOILER***

In the recent TCB episode at the very end the psychologist Josh was interviewing recommended to him that he take a serious look into the case of Jennifer Kesse as a potential Keyes victim, something Josh had early on dismissed.
Just wondering what everyone thoughts on this are? For me I am not really sure, they are definitely aspects of the case that could be connected to Keyes but these aspects are some of the most broad IMO.

I am very, very curious to know what Kunkle's rationale is for this (I listened to the episode so I'm aware that thus far there hasn't been any).

In the absence of further information it seems really low-percentage to me, but Kunkle seems to know his *advertiser censored*, and in any case I doubt he'd throw something out there unsolicited like Keyes being responsible for Jennifer Kesse lightly.

I look at it kinda the same way you put it--I see absolutely no direct link to Keyes, and all the similarities that exist to Keyes' known cases are superficial.

But Josh/TCBS have gotten me to turn the corner on considering cases before that I initially thought had no chance of Keyes' involvement (Lauren Spierer and Karen Adams being the first two that come to mind). So we shall see.
 

MesquiteO21

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Okay, I’ve reached a conclusion. It’s my own opinion, though, so feel free to tell me why you think I’m wrong.

First, I’d like to say that I now believe some of the victims are one and the same. The person who was found but was believed to have died an accidental death is most likely the first victim. I think Keyes said the victim was male and that he had strangled him. The victim was probably a neighbor, as he had disappeared and was later found dead. Second, while Delmar Sample hasn’t been conclusively ruled out as a victim, I think the FBI admitted that he was most likely wasn’t killed by Keyes. So I’ll be fair and exclude him.

The unnamed couple killed between 2001 and 2005 might’ve been 18-year-old Eugene Hyatt and 16-year-old Kami Vollendroff, who were last seen on November 21, 2001. I know Keyes said he didn’t kill children, but it’s possible that he thought Kami was older than she actually was. Alternatively, he could’ve been referring to small children instead of anyone under the age of 18.

The two victims killed in 2005 or 2006 were possibly 44-year-old Wendy Dehoop (disappeared on April 22, 2005) and 52-year-old Stephen Mason (disappeared on June 20, 2006).

The pale-skinned woman with an old car and a wealthy grandmother could’ve been 58-year-old Anita Scott, who vanished February 20, 2003. It should be noted that she had a wealthy uncle, not a grandmother. Of course, Keyes probably just misremembered.

Finally, there’s 58-year-old James Tidwell, who hasn’t been seen since February 15, 2012. Keyes robbed a bank while wearing a dark-haired wig and a white hard hat. Not only did James own a white hard hat, but his hair resembled the wig… which Keyes later admitted was actually human hair. (This is the stuff of nightmares.)

TL;DR: Here’s my list of what I believe to be the eleven victims:

Keyes’ neighbor
Eugene Hyatt
Kami Vollendroff
Anita Scott
Wendy Dehoop
Stephen Mason
Debra Feldman
Bill Currier
Lorraine Currier
Samantha Koenig
James Tidwell

i'm wondering how someone who was strangled could be ruled an accidental death...any medical people here have an idea? what accidental situations would cause the hyoid bone to be broken or fractured like it is with strangulation?
 

MesquiteO21

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SPOILER***

In the recent TCB episode at the very end the psychologist Josh was interviewing recommended to him that he take a serious look into the case of Jennifer Kesse as a potential Keyes victim, something Josh had early on dismissed.
Just wondering what everyone thoughts on this are? For me I am not really sure, they are definitely aspects of the case that could be connected to Keyes but these aspects are some of the most broad IMO.

i'd be interested to know what the reasons they suspect him in her case are. off the top of my head there's the moving of her car, and also the construction work aspect. but there must be additional information about Keyes that fits with Jennifer's situation.

I will say, i did look again today at the surveillance video of the person who parked her car (hadn't watched it in quite awhile) and my very first gut reaction was that it's totally a woman. Men by and large don't typically walk on their toes like that, JMO. I believe officials also put the person's height at like 5'3 - 5'5 if i'm not mistaken? again just generalizing but that fits more with average height of a female, although some men of certain ethnicities like east Asian and Latinx can be shorter than the average male height of European and African descent men.

Keyes was 6'2 so there's no way that could be him on the video, but i wouldn't rule out the possibility that he somehow set someone else up to move the car
 

snowgoose

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i'm wondering how someone who was strangled could be ruled an accidental death...any medical people here have an idea? what accidental situations would cause the hyoid bone to be broken or fractured like it is with strangulation?

Not a medical person but my understanding is that a broken hyoid bone indicates strangulation, but an intact hyoid bone doesn't rule out strangulation. It's also possible that the remains were scattered due to decomposition/animal activity and the hyoid bone wasn't found.

That's assuming Keyes was telling the truth, of course. I don't remember this specific quote, but I suspect that in those interviews he often blurred the lines between what he really did and what he liked to imagine himself doing.
 

dub

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i'd be interested to know what the reasons they suspect him in her case are. off the top of my head there's the moving of her car, and also the construction work aspect. but there must be additional information about Keyes that fits with Jennifer's situation.

I will say, i did look again today at the surveillance video of the person who parked her car (hadn't watched it in quite awhile) and my very first gut reaction was that it's totally a woman. Men by and large don't typically walk on their toes like that, JMO. I believe officials also put the person's height at like 5'3 - 5'5 if i'm not mistaken? again just generalizing but that fits more with average height of a female, although some men of certain ethnicities like east Asian and Latinx can be shorter than the average male height of European and African descent men.

Keyes was 6'2 so there's no way that could be him on the video, but i wouldn't rule out the possibility that he somehow set someone else up to move the car

BBM I've been listening to the True Crime Garage series on Jennifer Kesse this week, and according to the series that is generally correct, but it's more complicated than that.

Apparently several (I believe like four?) different agencies did height assessments and somehow came up with wildly different results. The 5'3"-5'5" assessment was the original one, which I think came from the FBI, but the rest were all over the place, with at least one ranged as high as 5'11".

It sounded like because of this variance and the confusion over it they just made the official line the original 5'3"-5'5" estimate, but didn't have any real rationale besides "we're just going with that one", which is really stupid.

They also stated in the podcast that the family thought the car's seat was pushed back way further than Jennifer, who was 5'8", would have had it.

I don't put much stock in that in terms of the driver being much taller, 6'2" for example, because maybe Jennifer just had a personal preference to drive with the seat pretty far back, or maybe they were just straight up wrong. But if that was their assessment, whether accurate or not, to me it would definitely suggest it was not a driver who was much shorter than Jennifer.

ETA: FWIW, True Crime Garage's very not-scientific assessment was that the driver appears to be of roughly average or slightly below average height for a man.
 
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MesquiteO21

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BBM I've been listening to the True Crime Garage series on Jennifer Kesse this week, and according to the series that is generally correct, but it's more complicated than that.

Apparently several (I believe like four?) different agencies did height assessments and somehow came up with wildly different results. The 5'3"-5'5" assessment was the original one, which I think came from the FBI, but the rest were all over the place, with at least one ranged as high as 5'11".

It sounded like because of this variance and the confusion over it they just made the official line the original 5'3"-5'5" estimate, but didn't have any real rationale besides "we're just going with that one", which is really stupid.

They also stated in the podcast that the family thought the car's seat was pushed back way further than Jennifer, who was 5'8", would have had it.

I don't put much stock in that in terms of the driver being much taller, 6'2" for example, because maybe Jennifer just had a personal preference to drive with the seat pretty far back, or maybe they were just straight up wrong. But if that was their assessment, whether accurate or not, to me it would definitely suggest it was not a driver who was much shorter than Jennifer.

ETA: FWIW, True Crime Garage's very not-scientific assessment was that the driver appears to be of roughly average or slightly below average height for a man.

interesting, thanks for the info. There’s a huge difference between 5’3-5’5 and 5’11 ugh :rolleyes: so frustrating. No wonder these cases remain unsolved with so much varying “evidence”
 
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MesquiteO21

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Not a medical person but my understanding is that a broken hyoid bone indicates strangulation, but an intact hyoid bone doesn't rule out strangulation. It's also possible that the remains were scattered due to decomposition/animal activity and the hyoid bone wasn't found.

That's assuming Keyes was telling the truth, of course. I don't remember this specific quote, but I suspect that in those interviews he often blurred the lines between what he really did and what he liked to imagine himself doing.


those are good points.

it's endlessly frustrating to try to figure out the truth of what he said, what he might have been purposely flat out lying about, and what he might have thought was the truth but misremembered (like a victim having a "wealthy grandmother" when it might have been a wealthy uncle, etc.).
 

MesquiteO21

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those are good points.

it's endlessly frustrating to try to figure out the truth of what he said, what he might have been purposely flat out lying about, and what he might have thought was the truth but misremembered (like a victim having a "wealthy grandmother" when it might have been a wealthy uncle, etc.).

to add on - i do kind of have some doubts about him misremembering though. it's true that regardless of IQ level, everyone at some point in their life has likely misremembered so it's not impossible that he truly mixed some facts around. but generally i do not believe Keyes was stupid and even for psychopaths, torturing and killing people is a big deal event(s) in their life so i'm skeptical that he would've forgotten a lot of it. JMO but overall i think he was either telling the truth or deliberately lying/omitting certain things, with maybe a limited few facts being truly misremembered.
 
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