Israel Keyes: General Discussion

Discussion in 'Israel Keyes' started by bessie, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. digndoodle

    digndoodle New Member

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    No offense taken gtm, but I highly think that sometimes on these trips he did not use a rental car or only used one in certain areas....I believe him to walk many places, stay in run-down buildings and I feel a high probability he stayed in some shelters, he told investigators that a lot of times while on these trips he would travel a little further and go to his run-down home in upstate NY and stay overnite...yet NO Neighbors had ever seen him when FBI did the 2 day search and went door to door
    I feel also when he said he went "Black" there was much more to that one sentence than just turning his cell phone off...IMO I think this is some of the times he walked, rode a bike and etc. to get close to where he planned to go all the while staying in the run-down places or shelters
    I agree that FBI are the best, but this case has been difficult for them I'm sure....I just thought perhaps when someone gave them a name and it was not according to their released timeline that maybe there was a way to go in and seek info. of any close rental places that might have proof that he was in a small town or place that perhaps would not have been on the bigger cities
    but on a lighter note, I will say this case has really affected me in many many ways and to the point I simply had to walk away for a few weeks, but I have said I will follow it (if only reading) until FBI says the case is closed
     


  2. Skully

    Skully Well-Known Member

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  3. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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  4. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

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    Oh Wow! You guys have been busy. Much for me to catch up on! Again, websleuthers never cease to AMAZE me. :loveyou: :tyou: BBL! So many great posts - so little time! :fence:
     
  5. RIGHTEOUS1

    RIGHTEOUS1 New Member

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    I watched the DM show. The name sounded familiar but I did not know the extent of this guy. How do you even begin to understand this. Men, Women, Children? The Planning years in advance. I watched one of the FBI interviews.
    He should have been on Suicide watch all the time. He made it very clear he didn't care about any of the Families loved ones. He was going to kill himself if he could not get the Death Penalty. I am going to see how much info the government let out on the case.
     
  6. RIGHTEOUS1

    RIGHTEOUS1 New Member

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    I wonder if all his crimes were separate. Robbing a bank in a different State from Killing someone. Maybe in his early twenties he kidnapped a Girl and used her Bank Card. I would think he did not start being so meticulous. He learned it as he went on.
     
  7. RIGHTEOUS1

    RIGHTEOUS1 New Member

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    When this guy was growing up The Green River killer was in the news all the time, Bundy also. I'd imagine he would think what he would do differently. At what age was his first major crime? Do they know?
     
  8. digndoodle

    digndoodle New Member

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    I can add to the above message, Keyes idol was Bundy, but was quick to tell investigators that he patterned his killings after no-one...all was his own as he told them!!!!....There was others even in Wash. State during Keyes times also.
    His 1st victim was a young lady that he lured away from a group of young people that were on some type of outting, he "violently" raped her (his words that can be found on the FBI released tapes" I started to kill her, but put her back on her tube and sent her down the river to get back with the group she was with....they say she would have been somewhere between 14-16 I believe it was...Keyes would have been around 18 at this time...All of this was in Oregon

    Also his grandfather gave him a gun on his 14th Birthday and he also told investigators that he was breaking into homes at this time, went on to talk about how he could get away with stealing guns and etc. and then selling them because he did not look his age and I believe this to be around the same age he took the family cat into the woods with some kids and shot it, he stated he knew then that his kind of thinking was not "normal" he laughed at the cat, while the other children became very upset and one got very ill over this, he stated that of course the boys went back and told their father what he had done, needless to say they were never allowed to go out in the woods again with Keyes


    http://israelkeyes.blogspot.com/

    Israel Keyes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  9. RIGHTEOUS1

    RIGHTEOUS1 New Member

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    He must have started near where he was living 90+/- miles. Or like you just said on an outing. I wonder if that case was reported, the inner tube. He could have left out killing the girl, make it look like a drowning accident?
    Those Tapes Audio/ Video I have only found 5 Video and 2 working Audio, I'm sure there are more. The FBI web site has the Video. I think the Alaska Dispatch has the Audio but only 2 are up. It really sucks this guy killed himself.
    He would have given up plenty of info. I know they needed access to him but not keeping him in the most restrictive place possible was a big mistake.
     
  10. digndoodle

    digndoodle New Member

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    Righteous1.....Below is a link that should have all the released recordings and they have the conversations below each interview...they all worked for me, I hope this helps

    http://www.fbi.gov/anchorage/video/israel-keyes-interview-may-24-2012

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  11. bessie

    bessie Verified Insider

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    Only five videos were released. You can see watch them in the thread or follow the link to the FBI website. The audio tapes were only on the Alaska Dispatch site, and I see what you mean -- they no longer work.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221130"]Israel Keyes: FBI Released Video and Audio Recordings - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
     
  12. Tulessa

    Tulessa Well-Known Member

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    Bumping for Ian.................
     
  13. Ian Moone

    Ian Moone Former Member

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    OK here goes.

    2 initial thoughts.

    1 = Motive.

    MOTIVE is a reflection of intent, criminal or otherwise. Criminal liability requires criminal intent. Therefore arguing the motives of actions is a prerequisite for presenting criminal cases to judges and juries.

    Assessing motive is not the responsibility of forensic professionals. Psychiatrists who evaluate whether someone is criminally insane, for example, do not necessarily have an opinion on why a certain crime happened, only whether the suspect was predisposed to carry it out or appreciated right from wrong.

    Invariably however juries want to consider why a crime was committed while deliberating on the responsibility for it. Whether or not, motive has legal significance, it represents a human aspect of each case. When psychiatrists testify in court, particularly when a crime is “unthinkable”, jurors might attach more credibility to testimony that educates them about the defendant’s motive.

    Forensic psychologists and psychiatrists are uniquely suited – given the specific qualities of forensic examinations for criminal responsibility or pre sentencing issues- to probe motive. In doing so they review the entire case file of police investigation notes, autopsy results, physical evidence reports, past medical and psychological records, school and employment records, and drug and toxicology reports. As well as defendants financial transactions, email correspondence, phone calls and web activity. Moreover, the psychiatric examiner learns about important aspects and events of the criminal ‘s life by interviewing eye witnesses, close friends, relatives, enemies, acquaintances and the actual defendant.

    The comprehensive nature of forensic psychiatric examination provides the criminalist with a complete appreciation of the individual - how this person developed up to the time of the crime, and why he or she made certain criminal choices. From this painstaking turning over and fitting together of puzzle pieces - and ongoing quest for such pieces - comes the beginning of an understanding of motive.









    FBI’s Organized/Disorganized offender dichotomy.

    The primary foundation of the FBI’s system lies within the organized and disorganized offender dichotomy. The table below illustrates some differences the FBI draws on between these two types of offender.

    Organized Offender
    Average to above average intelligence
    Socially competent
    Skilled work preferred
    Sexually competent
    High birth order status
    Fathers work stable
    Inconsistent childhood discipline
    Controlled mood during crime
    Use of alcohol with crime
    Precipitating situational stress
    Living with a partner
    Follows crime in news media

    Disorganized Offender
    Below-Average intelligence
    Socially adequate
    Unskilled work
    Sexually incompetent
    Low birth order status
    Fathers work unstable
    Harsh discipline as a child
    Anxious mood during crime
    Minimal use of alcohol
    Minimum situational stress
    Living alone
    Minimal interest in news media


    Primary, Secondary and Tertiary Motive.

    Why did the criminal commit the crime?

    For the forensic psychiatrist this obvious question is supplemented by: “Why did the criminal do it at that time, rather than sooner or later? Motive may appear obvious in some cases, but experience in psychiatric examination reveals that often there is more to a story. If concrete matters such as guilt cannot be presumed – neither can motive.

    Motive are often complex or multi layered. A criminal may have a primary motive, secondary motive and tertiary motive.

    Here’s an example of this.

    “Bashra was an unassuming housewife in Gaza under the rule of the Palestinian Authority. Her Husband was a leading member of the terrorists group ‘Hamas’, which is dedicated to killing as many Israeli Jews as possible. Thus when Bashra went to a checkpoint and blew herself up when Israelis answered her contrived call for medical assistance, her allegiance to her husband appeared obvious. She left behind a videotape, as is the custom for Hamas terrorists, posing in military gear with her child and an automatic weapon.”

    Was Bashra’s motive terrorist mass murder?

    Closer study of the case revealed that her family did NOT participate in demonstrative mourning, as is the custom when Gaza villagers gather to celebrate such deaths. Instead the family was quiet and unobtrusive, some even absent. Subsequently it emerged that Bashra’s husband had lost his love for her, so she had volunteered for the mission to ‘win him back’.

    Was her motive then – also “romantic”?

    Later it was learned that Bashra had entered into an affair with a local man but had broken it off. When her family became aware of this, they had shunned her – reportedly leaving her desperately sad and depressed.

    Was she then suicidal in her motivation?

    Was she vengeful toward the family that had shunned her?

    Was she endeavoring to restore her honor by terrorism, the most decorated achievement in her culture?

    Only a thorough investigation, including detailed interviews of witnesses and confidants and study of personal writings and other communications made at the time that the criminal decision was made, enables an examiner to determine which motive or motives maybe considered primary, and which motives had lesser influence.

    Even with a living defendant who can be interviewed , that persons understanding of his or her own motives may change. A person reflecting on criminal behavior while in custody may reach an understanding that bears little resemblance to the motivation at the time of the crime.

    Two Modes of Motive.

    Mode 1 = Primary Secondary & Tertiary motive.

    Perpetrator --------------------Primary Motive----------------- Crime

    Perpetrator---------------------Secondary Motive-------------- Crime

    Perpetrator---------------------Tertiary Motive----------------- Crime

    Example: Bashra’s suicide bombing

    Primary Motive: Allegiance to Hamas

    Secondary Motive: Win back the love of her husband.

    Tertiary Motive: Vengeance on her family.

    Primary motive reflects the driving force of the criminals thinking and planning, compelling him or her to disregard the potential danger of fines, imprisonment or loss of standing.

    Example 2.

    Bobby planned and carried out a robbery breaking into a flat that seemed vulnerable. As he was rifling thru drawers he was surprised by Charles the 53 year old resident.
    Charles showed no resistance when Bobby demanded that Charles go into the bathroom and stay there until Bobby had completed the robbery and left.
    Bobby was a big bruiser and Charles was a meek mild mannered accountant couch potato type. Still Bobby attacked him and punched him around the face. Arrested for a violent crime that was totally unnecessary Bobby conceded that he had not planned to victimize Charles, only to rob him. Ultimately he reflected that there was something familiar about Charles voice – he reminded him of a teacher who had suspended him when he was in high school, but he had not recognized this motive until much later.

    Mode 2 = Conscious Versus Unconscious Motive

    Perpetrator---------------------------Conscious Motive------------------- Crime
    l (Down arrow) ----Unconscious Motive---------------- Crime

    Example: Bobby robs a flat and assaults Charles
    Conscious Motive: Robbery
    Unconscious Motive: Vengeance on a former teacher.


    Conscious Versus Unconscious Motive

    The unconscious has great relevance in criminal motivation.
    The idea for criminal action germinates and elaborates into a chosen target. Chosen accomplices or chosen modus operandi on a chosen date. These features can indicate the influence of conscious and unconscious motivation.

    The complexity of criminal motivation should not be seen as an excuse for bad behavior. However respect should be given to the individual’s particular circumstances. Seeing each defendant as a person enhances justice, whether it is at a trial, sentencing or a later parole hearing. Understanding primary vs secondary motives and conscious versus unconscious motives invariably improves a jury’s ability to determine the severity of a criminal act, such as manslaughter versus murder.

    Motive & Gain.

    Understanding the nature and extent of gain is helpful to making sense of motive. Primary gain is the most obvious benefit of a crime to a criminal. Secondary gain is less obvious but still important.

    Predatory motives

    Predatory criminal motives share the common feature of exploiting a vulnerable person or target for material gain. Profit is one of the most obvious of predatory motives. In larceny or robbery the criminal gains money – and no matter how it is rationalized, when one person gains – others lose.

    Profit may also be a secondary motive, even to a psychological motive.

    Proprietary gain is another predatory motive. Violent sexual assaults, particularly on strangers, clearly demonstrate proprietary sexual motivation. The criminal uses violence as a means of exerting power, control, and possession of the victim. Stalkers are proprietary although their agenda is to further a pathological attachment, a romantic of perverse expression. Even if non violent, their actions are geared to insinuate themselves into the victims thinking to control and perpetuate as intense a connection as possible.

    Proprietary crimes encompass the range of material and psychological benefits that one person might want from another.

    Power, property, collectibles and prestige are all sufficient lures to motivate predatory crime.

    Not all predatory crimes however are carried out for material or physical gain. For example some sex offenders, particularly drug – facilitated sex assaulter s, and child molesters seek sexual gratification in their predatory acts.

    Occasionally there are reports of senseless crimes that are never the less predatory.

    Predatory crime can be carried out for psychological gain with no proprietary motive.

    Attention-seeking crimes, may also be predatory in nature, In such cases, criminals typically want to promote political causes. Popular films suggest that there are killers who search out victims to play games with police. However, seeking attention without an apparent agenda or another motive is rare. Those guilty of such crimes are usually disorganized and do not devote as much effort to escaping police as they do to the spectacle of their crimes.

    Reactive motives.

    A response to provocation or perceived provocation is a common motive. The likelihood of a reactive motive warrants more consideration when financial or material gain is unclear.

    Vigilantism is a vivid example of reactive motivation driven by revenge and retaliation. More common however, are responses to slights or actual attacks. Reactive crimes often occur during periods of inflamed emotion, uninhibited drug use or emotional vulnerability. For this reason, they are often impulsive and manifest more disorganized modus operandi. That said, reactive crimes particularly when carried out by those who frequently break the law, may follow considerable planning.

    Likewise, poorly planned and impulsive crimes may nevertheless be driven by predatory motives. Opportunistic offenders, those who devise a modus operandi to exploit circumstances they encounter, may be impulsive in their decision making.

    Motiveless crimes.

    Is it possible for a crime to occur without a motive? Perhaps this is the embodiment of the senseless crime. The term senseless is typically used to convey an idea that a crime had no purpose. More often than not however, it means that the crime accomplished nothing. The criminal may regret the crime after the fact, but at the time may have had specific short – term objectives that inspired the criminal choice. The notion of a motiveless crime evokes immediate consideration of psychiatric issues. If there is no motive for a crime, a person’s behavior is at least irrational, and consciousness may be severely impaired.

    Psychosis and Motive

    Psychosis is a manifestation of irrational ideas, perceptions, emotions, communication, orientation, or behavior. All have a bearing on criminal motive and the expression of it.
    Psychotic ideas are known as delusions, and a delusional individual maintains specific ideas despite all evidence to the contrary. The content may be persecutory, jealous, romantic, (eroto-manic) or grandiose. Crime driven by a delusion of persecution is typically reactive; delusional eroto-manic crimes are proprietary, and crime driven by grandiosity may compel a variety of motives.

    Deeper probing, beyond the mere existence of a delusion, can resolve why a belief drove a person to a crime. The reason that person made a criminal choice may not necessarily be explained by the delusion itself, unless the person was convinced that he or she was involved in a criminal enterprise, perhaps as a mobster or terrorist, or member of a pedophile ring.

    Many individuals with major psychiatric illnesses develop significant hostility. During times when the effects of the illness are more pronounced, the person may act on that anger, with no regard for the consequences. The provocation may be substantial or minor. Some who suffer delusions also think they hear voices which may encourage or order them to break the law. Senseless crime? Sure, when you consider that the drive to act stems from the orders of something that does not exist. Is the crime motiveless however?

    Without examination, the motive remains unclear. Even when hallucinations are of the command type, the people who experience them do necessarily follow their directives without critical thought. Assessing the motive for following the hallucination’s instructions at a particular time resolves the motive itself.

    Psychosis expressed as irrational emotion may also act as a motive. Some who are psychotic may produce an unjustified extreme reaction to relatively minor provocation. This scenario is more frequently associated with intoxication or substance abuse.

    Psychotic crimes, therefore, are not necessarily motiveless at all. One situation that does pose that possibility, however, results from the disorientation and confusion of delirium. While suffering acute medical conditions, some individuals may develop delirium, an altered state of consciousness that muddles rational thought.

    Acutely confused individuals may carry out purposeless crimes, such as random physical blows or grabbing.

    Resolving questions of motive.

    The examiner must keep an open mind and look beyond seemingly obvious motives; the criminals admitted motive may merely be the easiest for him or her to reveal. Closer probing can uncover other motives that the person would rather conceal because they may be psychologically or legally harmful.

    Reviewing the criminals history acquaints the examiner with any conflicts, sensitivities or ongoing or building issues.

    The information is relevant when determining the motive for the offense. The criminal reaches the event in question as a product of past experience and motivations. Not even the wisest examiner can divine motivation without untangling the criminals life.


    2 = Criminal profiling.

    Criminal profiling.

    Recent books television programs and films have brought a new crime solving hero into the limelight – the profiler, who is able to lead detectives to violent serial criminals by careful observation and deduction. While it is true that profilers can play a very useful part in solving serial crimes, in reality this does not happen as often as the fictional accounts would have us believe. Most serial cases are solved by good old fashioned detective work, and forensic investigation.

    A criminal profiler will usually be called in on a case when traditional investigation methods are not making headway, perhaps because there is little hard evidence to point to a potential suspect. His or her purpose is to steer the investigation in the right direction, helping to narrow the search for a suspect. The profiler does this by studying all the evidence from the crime scene, and coming to conclusions about the type of person who committed the crime. These can include the criminal background, intelligence, education, age, and possibly even job and marital status.

    Many of these deductions are based on statistical information gathered from past crimes, the assumption being that certain types of crime, committed in the same manner, are carried out by people with similar personalities.
    A profilers knowledge of criminal psychology and his or her experience of past cases also play a major part in the preparation of a profile. Profilers are often very effective in the investigation of serial crimes, simply because these crimes produce more information to work with.

    Violent criminals often leave more information to indicate their personality at crime scenes than lesser offenders, because their violent crimes are often personality driven. A series of frenzied attacks on women for example, could indicate that the killer had a deep hatred of women, for example, prompted by some experience in his past, such as a girls rejection of him as a teenager, or perhaps having a domineering mother.

    The study of serial crimes by a profiler can lead to the identity of signature or common features at each crime scene. These are useful in attributing a series of crimes to a particular offender, and can lead to the inclusion of crimes beyond the initial scope of an investigation.

    Profiles work best when the offender displays obvious psychopathology, such as a sadistic torture, post mortem mutilation, or pedophilia. Some killers leave a “signature” – a behavioral manifestation of an individualizing personality quirk, such as staging the corpse for humiliating exposure, frenzied stabbing in a specific area, or tying ligatures with a complicated knot. This helps to link crime scenes and alert law enforcement to the presence of a serial rapist or killer. Sometimes the signature will also alert them to other types of behaviors to look for.

    What a profile can offer that tends to be helpful are clues to the offenders likely, general age range, racial identity, ideas about the modus operandi, estimates about living situation and education level, travel patterns, the possibility of a criminal or psychiatric record, and probably psychological traits. A profile may also describe a fantasy scenario that drives the person, or even pinpoint an area where he or she probably resides.

    A responsible profiler will also caution the investigators that profiles are valuable but limited. They are based on known data from other similar crimes and there is always some chance of anomalous human behavior. No one can predict everything that a person is capable of.

    Criminal Investigative Analysis Program, is a multi faceted approach to many types of crime which divides an investigation into 4 clear stages:-

    1. Determine that a crime has been committed.

    2. Try to accurately identify the crime.

    3. Try to identify and apprehend the offender.

    4. Present evidence in court.

    Profiling takes place during the third stage!

    Since 1960 in the USA, some 200,000 murder cases have gone unsolved and even more rape cases. Some forensic professionals who notice how families are deeply affected by lack of closure, or who believe that the victims of these unresolved crimes should gain a voice, have developed programs to bring focus, information and talent to the task.

    Similar to the Vidocq Society, is the Institute for Cold Case Evaluations at University of West Virginia. (www.coldcases.org) They match forensic scientists with police departments that lack the means to form cold case squads, offering a newsletter, cold case review, and web site to facilitate the connections.

    Apply this logic when trying to assess IK motives and trying to profile him and his behavior.

    All cases are individual... while there are similarity's between cases frequently it's not entirely safe to just assume that because one criminal does something a certain way that all others will do so.

    I'm not familiar at all with the IK serial killer victims..& crimes to be able to make specific comment, I have enough trouble keeping up with the ones I do have on my plate, without going looking for more in a foreign nations jurisdiction I'm sorry.

    If I had that time i'd gladly sort thru whats known - but again that's not easy to do from media reports as distinct from factual case file data.

    He seems to have been a serial killer nutter of some repute - but if he's indeed dead I don't see the fascination (or anything of practical value to be gained) with continuing the discussions myself.

    I'm sure the victims family's however feel different, (and I understand & accept that) and would no doubt still like answers - but getting those from the grave is going to be mighty tough.

    I can't see a forum thread likely providing them with many answers of practical value tho.

    Its just being pragmatic... you have to do so to be effective at anything related to potential serial killers - there's one born every minute unfortunately.

    Sorry of these aren't the answers you were looking for.
     
  14. Tulessa

    Tulessa Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Ian. I was hoping you would reply. :)
     
  15. Ian Moone

    Ian Moone Former Member

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    Your Welcome Tulessa.

    Maybe try and classify IK' within the FBI's Dichotomous key for organized or disorganized offender.

    I would guess he is likely an "organized offender" or he'd have been caught sooner (Disorganized aren't real bright bit they can lift heavy things!).

    Then try to work out his motivations, Primary Secondary and Tertiary - to ascertain the recurring motives & patterns between his crimes.

    Then lastly try and profile him.

    This exercise in essence attempts to "get you inside his head" - to think like him and understand his motivations.

    My brief look (and I haven't studied the whole thread in detail), shows a primary motive of "Material Gain" from the thefts and robbery's, probably with a secondary motivation of "empowerment" from his abductions & murders, followed by any number of tertiary motives...(was he raised an orphan for e.g. and is say jealous of people with "normal" familys?

    Tertiary motives take a lot of digging back thru his history/upbringing to understand.

    Why did he got Mexico etc etc.

    Again i haven't studied all his crimes - just a very brief look.

    But keep coming back to these basics of motive and profiling...

    Maybe create a spread sheet containing each crime and try to identify all these MO's and motives... and look for similarities between the crimes - & you MIGHT build a reasonable profile where its possible to then compare "other" unsolved crimes - to his known proclivities to see which ones "fit" as a way of discerning maybe more of his victims.

    It might be a fruitful exercise and it will teach you a lot about human nature and what motivates people.

    Sometimes that's not a good thing....... you will invariable see yourself "seeing thru" friends and relatives statements requests to their underlying REAL motives.

    That's not always a good thing.... making people transparent- and being able to read people like a book. Did your partner look down and to the left when you asked them about fidelity? If so they were lying.

    Do you really want these new found skills?
    Sometimes life's a lot tougher when you learn (are trained in) these skills.
    But also sometimes you get the answers you need to understand things.

    Watching politicians for e.g. on the TV is a nightmare, you can tell when they are lying - their lips are moving! :floorlaugh:

    Hopefully you will get something out of all that, read it a few times or save yourself a copy if you like... always handy to go back to the source document and analyze each of the crimes to look for the commonalities and motives... and build a profile.

    Then I apply my next tool...

    Its a data mining application that sometimes turns up "unexpected" results (including GPS coordinates for missing persons remains).

    Its my own proprietary development (intellectual property) that I'm not ready yet to share with the greater world... but holds potential to be a valuable adjunct/application to crime solving when dead ends are run into.

    Its very time consuming - I need to refine it a lot - most of the coding I have to do by hand - as I am not computer savvy enough to create the code to do it by computer.

    Maybe one day I'll find someone capable of coding it for me - it would be far more useful if it was faster - it really requires a massively fast computer to do multiple searches at the same time, whereas some of the more complex ones - will run for 24 hours plus on my little laptop - and when you have hundreds of searches to run, its not hard to invest thousands of hours.
    Add in the hand coding for numerical values to ascertain GPS coordinates etc, and one case can occupy months.

    Who can afford that amount of time (& $)?.

    All things in good time they say.
     
  16. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    Ian Moone, thanx for joining the IK Thread.... IM, imo, Israel Keyes, is/was an anomaly; an Emulator; similar to a copycat, but a copycat of many serial killers prior with an evil twist of his own thrown in for confusion. IK was neither, organized, disorganized, or mixed, but a combination of the three..

    In the six plus years of researching hundreds of prolific serial killers, I've only ran across two Emulators. This doesn't mean that there's not more active, just that they are very seldom caught. Psychopathic Emulators have no souls, but do have other selves. If you quizzed them on their fidelity, they would know to not look down and to the left..
    Emulators are rapid thinkers, avid readers, tech savvy, and are a byproduct of the CSI effect, imo.

    IK had no victim profile, was very meticulous, investigative and forensically aware, and had no geographical boundaries..

    Ian, Imo, IK intentionally violated his first rule of prey when he abducted his last and final victim; Samantha Koenig(Anchorage, AK), close to home. IK had a reason/purpose for everything he said, and everything he did...jmo
     
  17. Ian Moone

    Ian Moone Former Member

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    Foxfire - I've not studied IK case history at all...

    Even IK may not know what his tertiary motives were, likely it would take years of psycho-analysis to dig them out, and as he is dead, thus that's not going to happen any time soon.

    He would have a MO it might well be a flexible adaptive one that he twists to fit the circumstance but he would have one if you dig / delve deeply enough.

    Like I said a timeline spreadsheet might prove instructive...

    A serial killer isn't a serial killer on his first killing - just a murderer..... it's not until they kill for the 2nd and subsequent times that they become a serial killer and most learn fro their successes and failures and "grow" into the eventual monsters they become....

    So studying them might prove instructive in linking other crimes via MO (Modus Operandi).

    We would probably have to agree to disagree about him being an emulator.

    Again - I say this having not studied his case.

    I could investigate his case I guess but don't see any point if hes dead.

    <mod snip>

    My interest is the CSK thread - because that particular serial killer is still out there waiting to be caught - thus along with being in my nation it's a far higher priority for me being an active case, as distinct from a cold case/closed case in a foreign nation.

    History's not my thing, and the IK cases are history, whereas the CSK is active...

    I see nothing practical to be gained applying my time and efforts to a history case is all - it won't save the CSK' next victim from a grisly death will it?

    My data mining system takes inordinate amounts of processing capacity and time. 2 searches in recent days are taking more than 24 hours solid crunching!

    I don't have a super computer (for processing speed and concurrent multiple searches) and I don't have optical character recognition to do the manual numerical coding I do to locate GPS co-ordinates for missing persons remains that I perform...

    I just haven't the time to speculate about cases where the killer is known and dead in a foreign country.

    I gave you what i have - whether people choose to use and apply it (or not) is up to them, but I haven't the time to debate it unfortunately.

    But I do wish you the very best of luck with it.

    Me, I am still working on active cases because I feel that's the best use of my time at the moment - maybe it will save a potential next victims life.

    Cheers
     
  18. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    Thanx for your reply, Ian.. History is my thing.. It has a habit of repeating itself, as do predators..
    You must interpret the artwork to understand the artist..
    Ian, much info has been derived from serial killers prior; both alive and deceased; hence the FBI BSU, profiling, etc..

    Good luck on the CSK thread...
     
  19. Bullshark

    Bullshark New Member

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    There are several men missing from the Conroe/Montgomery area. Do you think IK may be responsible for them since he has history of being in the area and it has been released he was bisexual
     
  20. Sillybilly

    Sillybilly Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    From an old post by Snoopster who was questioning the possibility of Keyes being involved in various murders, specifically UID "Lyle Stevik":

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AK, NY Israel Keyes - Who are all of his victims???


    I see from the timeline that Keyes was in Neah Bay at the time that "Lyle" was found deceased in Grays Harbor, WA in September 2001. Keyes supposedly commited his first homicide when he lived in Neah Bay from 2001 to 2007:

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Israel Keyes Timelines *NO DISCUSSION*


    There was spec in Lyle's thread that he possibly had a connection to the Makah Tribe and Keyes had a letter of appreciation dated April 25 2002 from the Public Works Manager of the tribe, related to work Keyes had done for the Makah tribe:

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21217&d=1331875001

    WS forum for Lyle Stevik:

    Lyle Stevik - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
     

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