Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #14

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Israel was gifted the land after the holocaust. I think their loss of 6 million murdered people should give them the right to build their homeland with out neighbouring people hounding them and threatening them. They should all just learn to live in peace.
They were not gifted the West Bank and Gaza after the holocaust.

West Bank and Gaza were part of Jordan and Egypt.

Israel won the territories in 1967 after the 6-day war with Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

Egypt provoked war by blocking the Red Sea. Syria and Israel were having a water dispute for months.
Egypt should not have blocked the Red Sea. Jordan only joined the war due to pressure from Egypt. The Arab Countries lost.

However, the new territories were a problem for Israel because they were Arab majority. Israel did not want to annex them because they would lose their Jewish-state majority. The Palestinians did not want to be annexed either. David Ben Gurion said, "Don't accept the land even if it means there is no peace treaty". However, at the end of the day, West Bank, Gaza and Sinai became territories of Israel.

Sinai was returned to Egypt in 1978 with the Camp David Accords.
Jordan continued to intervene in the West Bank, but pulled out in 1994.
 
They were not gifted the West Bank and Gaza after the holocaust.

West Bank and Gaza were part of Jordan and Egypt.

Israel won the territories in 1967 after the 6-day war with Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

Egypt provoked war by blocking the Red Sea. Syria and Israel were having a water dispute for months.
Egypt should not have blocked the Red Sea. Jordan only joined the war due to pressure from Egypt. The Arab Countries lost.

However, the new territories were a problem for Israel because they were Arab majority. Israel did not want to annex them because they would lose their Jewish-state majority. The Palestinians did not want to be annexed either. David Ben Gurion said, "Don't accept the land even if it means there is no peace treaty". However, at the end of the day, West Bank, Gaza and Sinai became territories of Israel.

Sinai was returned to Egypt in 1978 with the Camp David Accords.
Jordan continued to intervene in the West Bank, but pulled out in 1994.
I was talking about them being gifted their land in Israel itself. Not Gaza. And Hamas wants to take Israeli land 'to the sea.'
 
4min ago

Egypt tells WSJ: Truce talks ongoing, Qataris still in Israel

Egyptian officials tells the Wall Street Journal that truce talks are ongoing despite the departure of Israeli negotiators from Qatar.

According to unnamed officials quoted by the paper, Qatari officials remain in Israel and Egyptians are in Gaza to keep lines of communication open.

[...]

Israel says Hamas refused to release 17 women and children, breaching the terms of the truce.

Hamas deputy head Saleh Arouri tells broadcaster Al-Jazeera that any remaining hostages are men, “all of whom served in the (Israeli) army.”
 
This is a piece written by Gershon Baskin (influential peace activist and hostage negotiator who has negotiated with Hamas on behalf of Israel for two decades) in which he lays out a five step path to peace after the war.

From the article-
“How will we get out of this hell of ongoing war? ...

The day after tomorrow, when the war ends and Gaza will be completely occupied by Israel again, it must be clear to everyone that Israel has no intention of staying in Gaza. The extremist voices in Israel calling for resettlement in Gaza must be shut down immediately. The delusionary Israeli messianic voices calling for mass deportation of Palestinians in Gaza must be stopped even with the threat of arrest because mass deportation is clearly a war crime.

[…]

The five components are:
1. Palestinian leadership heading the process of stabilization in Gaza while carrying out deep reforms in the Palestinian Authority, including democratic elections for the parliament that must win the legitimacy of the Palestinian people.
2. Stationing a multinational Arab force invited by the Palestinian government and led by the Palestinian security forces with a limited mandate of the United Nations Security Council.

3. International commitment to a peace process designed to bring about a two-state solution.

4. International mobilization for the financing and reconstruction of the Gaza Strip and accelerated economic development of the Palestinian state.

5. New leadership in Israel and Palestine

The basic premise of the entire plan proposed here is that Hamas as a military and governmental force no longer exists. The idea of Hamas and the public support for it will still exist and there is no military way to fight against this. Ideas and ideology need to be challenged with better ideas and ideology. The intention of the plan detailed here is to replace the ideas of resistance and the sanctity of death for Palestine with the possibility of living for Palestine and a well-founded hope that the future will bring independence, freedom and life with dignity.“

RSBM
RBBM
Thank you for reading and quoting a knowledgeable person on the ground. I don't know as much as I should about the whole historical background on both sides, so grateful to those on the forum like yourself who are naming people on the ground who do.
 
I can only tell how it looks like to me.

Turkey is making a lot of money on all conflicts. I don't think they are involved, but their unique position. Probably lots of money stays in Erdogan's pockets, but Turkey is rapidly changing into a superpower.

You are correct about “unique position,” as this is exaaaactly the term the families of the hostages used in their letter to him, asking him to do more to help get them released.
 
You are correct about “unique position,” as this is exaaaactly the term the families of the hostages used in their letter to him, asking him to do more to help get them released.
Wrong person.
If you wake me at night and ask to name the most authoritarian leaders, I'd come with five, and his name will be among them.
 
To a degree, I can agree. Israel was afraid of PLO and tried to support HAMAS as an alternative to PLO, then ended up working with Mubarak along the lines of Philadephian axis, and now it wages another war with Palestine, what the heck? Does it mean that all of Israeli's ideas were wrong, or were they right for that time, and obsolete now because the leaders have been there for 20 years?

It just means that all prior policy faded as: whoever you invest into, if by trying to make it an ally, you also strengthen their power vertical, it will fail.


It seems to me that even the existence of two separate administrations, one in Western Bank and one in Gaza, while it is convenient for Israel, eventually backfires. This potentially undermines any possibility of democratic representation in Palestine and eventually, even HAMAS is destroyed, HAMAS-like scoundrels can spring to power watch how rapidly. The Palestinians do support HAMAS, and probably low level of education contributes, but mostly, the choice of whom to support is limited.

To me the situation requires more forward thinking.
I mentioned it in response to the Reuter's article which mentioned the three terrorist's ethnic status.

I think Reuter's mentioned it because when it comes to terrorism it's about, "Follow the money". It is important when talking about terrorism, because it's "follow the money", literally and figuratively. (Where did they come from and who are they connected to etc)

Reuter's wasn't implying that his refugee status was a cause of his terrorism. It just shows that Sinwar has been in Gaza all his life, except when in prison. I don't believe he can legally leave Gaza. (Of course there are illegal routes)

There are Palestinians who are citizens of Israel, however they do not follow under the umbrella of Palestinian Govt. They are under Israel's government (Like we have ethnic groups in the US)

However, the Palestinian-Israelis have friends and family who are refugees, which I'm sure tears at them.
 
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This is a piece written by Gershon Baskin (influential peace activist and hostage negotiator who has negotiated with Hamas on behalf of Israel for two decades) in which he lays out a five step path to peace after the war.

From the article-
“How will we get out of this hell of ongoing war? What state of mental health will we be in the day after the current war? The two nations are now going through their greatest trauma since the establishment of the State of Israel. Without comparing, October 7th was the most traumatic event for the people of Israel since the Holocaust. For the Palestinians, Hamas brought the Palestinian cause back 75 years and today the Palestinians are experiencing a second Nakba. We as Israelis have lost our security and the sense that there is a country behind us that protects us. The Palestinians have never had a state that protects them and cares for their well-being.

The victory picture of this war must be political. The massive killing and destruction within the Israeli communities on the Gaza border and in the Gaza Strip itself will remain etched in our collective memories, Israelis and Palestinians, for many years to come. A new chapter in our narratives is being written these days and the two nations will use these new chapters as another layer in our shared refusal to recognize the rights of each other to exist as a sovereign nation on part of the common homeland.

The history of the two nations during our hundred years war of survival has had almost no break from our so-called national duty for collective mobilization of our national movements to continue fighting until the death, our own and the death of the other side. The history of the two nations here is so full of blood, hatred, religious-divine-messianic impulses, and the sense of the righteousness of our cause (on both sides) along with the burning pain in each of us that drives us to seek revenge has been so much stronger than the logic that requires us to find a way to invest in the sanctity of life rather than the sanctity of death. Haven’t we had enough martyrs already? Didn’t we bury enough of our children?

How will we get out of this hell of ongoing war? What state of mental health will we be in the day after the current war? The two nations are now going through their greatest trauma since the establishment of the State of Israel. Without comparing, October 7th was the most traumatic event for the people of Israel since the Holocaust. For the Palestinians, Hamas brought the Palestinian cause back 75 years and today the Palestinians are experiencing a second Nakba. We as Israelis have lost our security and the sense that there is a country behind us that protects us. The Palestinians have never had a state that protects them and cares for their well-being.

After this terrible war, there must be an “epiphany” on both sides that will make us look ahead, focused and sober, towards creating a new reality in which our energies will be invested in rebuilding our lives and communities based on the acceptance of the very simple principle (but probably very difficult to accept) that everyone who lives between the River and the Sea is entitled to the same right to the same rights. Until both sides recognize the legitimacy of the existence of the other side as a people with an equal right to live here in the common homeland – in the Land of Israel, in the Land of Palestine, the killing, terror, destruction, hatred and desire for revenge will not end.

Obviously, those who brought us to this point must go home. Neither the Israeli leadership nor the Palestinian leadership has the right to continue to lead us. They brought us, all of us to this point and they must go. We Israelis must get out of the delusion that we can rule over another people for fifty-six years and expect to have peace, or to imprison two million people in a closed, small and dense area like the Gaza Strip with abject poverty and with a very young population devoid of any hope for a better future and expect to have quiet. The Palestinians must get out of the illusion that the Jewish people have no connection to this land, that they are occupying foreigners whose existence as a people in this place is illegitimate. This is the meaning of having the same right for the same rights. This is the foundation on which we can build together instead of continuing to kill and destroy.

The day after tomorrow, when the war ends and Gaza will be completely occupied by Israel again, it must be clear to everyone that Israel has no intention of staying in Gaza. The extremist voices in Israel calling for resettlement in Gaza must be shut down immediately. The delusionary Israeli messianic voices calling for mass deportation of Palestinians in Gaza must be stopped even with the threat of arrest because mass deportation is clearly a war crime.

[…]

The five components are:
1. Palestinian leadership heading the process of stabilization in Gaza while carrying out deep reforms in the Palestinian Authority, including democratic elections for the parliament that must win the legitimacy of the Palestinian people.
2. Stationing a multinational Arab force invited by the Palestinian government and led by the Palestinian security forces with a limited mandate of the United Nations Security Council.

3. International commitment to a peace process designed to bring about a two-state solution.

4. International mobilization for the financing and reconstruction of the Gaza Strip and accelerated economic development of the Palestinian state.

5. New leadership in Israel and Palestine

The basic premise of the entire plan proposed here is that Hamas as a military and governmental force no longer exists. The idea of Hamas and the public support for it will still exist and there is no military way to fight against this. Ideas and ideology need to be challenged with better ideas and ideology. The intention of the plan detailed here is to replace the ideas of resistance and the sanctity of death for Palestine with the possibility of living for Palestine and a well-founded hope that the future will bring independence, freedom and life with dignity.“


Thank you.

Great that there are smart people who understand that broad parliamentary representation is the way towards stability. You can't do it in any other way.
 
Libya on Friday released four terrorists belonging to the Palestinian terror group Hamas at the request and mediation of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, local media reported.

This concerns me. These guys are bad terrorists. (I posted the story yesterday too)

Are other countries going to release Hamas terrorists now??
 
Wrong person.
If you wake me at night and ask to name the most authoritarian leaders, I'd come with five, and his name will be among them.

Yeah I said the same thing when they wrote that letter, I believe my exact comment was “good luck with that one,” which was not based on being an authoritarian leader, but because of a very strong statement he made around the start of all this, forgot what it was exactly, it’s upstream, but he made it made very clear in the beginning where he stood, which is exactly what I said at the time. That he has had made it very clear where he stands.
 
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Theoretically every non-combatant and and civilian killed during and after the 7th is a murder victim including the five new borns left to starve to death and rot in the Al Nasr hospital.
My opinion
No, victims of war are not murder victims. Hamas declared WAR upon Israel on 10/7.

Those babies were abandoned by the doctors. The same doctors who were colluding with Hamas for years. They could have evacuated 5 babies but they didn't do so. That's on them.
 


Hamas would not even feed her dog.
Maya had to share her meager rations.
Brutal.

Chimera, in Islam, a dog is an unclear animal, so I can't blame them for not feeding a dog. I think that Maya is very lucky that they didn't kill her dog and they are both home. I think that Maya's luck was very personal, which sometimes happens. A quiet child, she might have reminded one of the local leader his sister/ child, and hence, survived. Survival is random.
 
I can only tell how it looks like to me.

Turkey is making a lot of money on all conflicts. I don't think they are involved, but their unique position. Probably lots of money stays in Erdogan's pockets, but Turkey is rapidly changing into a superpower.
Turkey has always been a champion for Palestinians.

Society and media in Turkey are decidedly
pro-Palestinian.

From my country's MSM

"The crisis around the Gaza Strip has contributed to a huge political and social upheaval in Turkey.

Since October 7, the position of the authorities has been hardening and has taken various forms:
from calls for de-escalation, through criticism of the actions taken by Israel (and the US as a factor intensifying the conflict),
to condemnation of Israel in connection with the accusation of bombing a hospital in Gaza.

In addition to the president's harsh statements,
an unprecedented declaration was signed, supported by all political forces in parliament, condemning Israel due to its alleged attack on the hospital.

Turkey also declared three days of national mourning, and a Hamas delegation visited parliament.

At the same time, a wave of pro-Palestinian demonstrations swept across the country, including:
at the embassies and consulates of Israel and the United States,
as well as American military bases in İncirlik and Malatya.

Following the protests,
Israel withdrew its diplomatic staff from Turkey for security reasons and called on its own citizens to leave
(the US closed its consulate in Adana and advised its citizens to be cautious).

At the same time,
Turkey launched an intense diplomatic campaign:
the Minister of Foreign Affairs held numerous talks with his counterparts in
the United States,
Egypt, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Lebanon
and took part in a meeting of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation in Jeddah,
and the president discussed, among others, with
the President of Russia,
the Chancellor of Germany and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Ankara has been consistently calling for
de-escalation of the conflict,
mainly aimed at Israel, offering mediation,
especially regarding the release of foreign hostages held by Hamas,
and calling for a comprehensive resolution of the dispute on the basis of the UN resolution calling for the establishment of Palestinian state with
its capital in East Jerusalem."

 

Israel-Hamas war: Meet the IDF troops keeping the Iron Dome running​

The Iron Dome air defense system has intercepted more than 2,000 rockets and mortars since the Hamas attack on October 7. Here are the men and women who make the system hum every day.​


 
I really feel for Israel they have no choice , if they were to stop and pull out of Gaza would Hamas stop hell no. Hamas wants to erase Jews from the earth . My family survived holodomor I understand genocide what I don't understand is why the news is against Israel and is throwing a pity party for terrorists. Jmoo

Yes, HAMAS has to go. About the rest, it is so complicated...

Take Barbra Streisand, a smart Democratic American Jewish woman, who, make no mistake, supported Israeli Jews fonancially, but recently she asked, "when does Anti-Zionism bleed into broad Anti-Semitism?"

I am surprised that most people who answer say it is the same. In fact, Zionism is a movement and a philosophy. People have the right to agree or disagree with its concepts. Like, I dont like Marxism but i don't like Ayn Rand either. Anti-Semitism is very different; it is a form of racism.


I think her question is very reasonable, is there a danger that one rocket too many will tip the scale and people around the world will take their dislike of Israeli policy on Jews living around the world? But it is as if no one understands what she is asking about.
 
Puts Israel on a par with Putin's Russia which is also alleged to assassinate enemies of the state.
My opinion
Let's just call them "Pre-emptive before the next time strikes" then as someone earlier suggested that Israel should have done that prior to the October 7th Massacres.

Taking them out BEFORE they can do this again and again and again (as they hve promised to do).

That should be all good to go now.
 
I haven't seen this story told before now
Thank you, Gardenista. I hadn't heard this story either, and just listened. Pitiful. MOO

This is the closest Israeli hospital to Gaza. They receive Palestinian patients from Gaza - between 10 and 15 on a regular day.

Hamas rockets hit the hospital four times, destroying the bridge that connects the old and new hospital, and took five of their operating theaters out of action.

Hamas also hit their institute that treats children with development problems, on the same day the Al Ahli hospital was hit by a misfired Hamas rocket.

ETA: The doctor points out that there were no international reports on these attacks...on an Israeli hospital.
 
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4min ago

Egypt tells WSJ: Truce talks ongoing, Qataris still in Israel

Egyptian officials tells the Wall Street Journal that truce talks are ongoing despite the departure of Israeli negotiators from Qatar.

According to unnamed officials quoted by the paper, Qatari officials remain in Israel and Egyptians are in Gaza to keep lines of communication open.

[...]

Israel says Hamas refused to release 17 women and children, breaching the terms of the truce.

Hamas deputy head Saleh Arouri tells broadcaster Al-Jazeera that any remaining hostages are men, “all of whom served in the (Israeli) army.”

BBM from above:
“Israel says Hamas refused to release 17 women and children, breaching the terms of the truce.”

(Lerner confirms this also in the live interview feed I was just watching, jmo)


Quick ref
* note to pick up here, scattered links
12/1 4 days ago: Israel’s Attackers Took About 240 Hostages. Here’s What to Know About Them.
 
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