Italy - Finnegan Elder, 19 & Gabriel Hjorth, 18, US students arrested, police murder, 26 July 2019

Discussion in 'Trials' started by FrostOwl, Jul 27, 2019.

  1. Medstudies

    Medstudies Peace out sleuths.

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    Great points!

    photo on the bed, shows it’s the middle finger of his left hand, that is missing.

    I wonder if he is right or left handed?

    And goodness, he was on the prowl for drugs. In a foreign country. I seriously doubt this was his first rodeo. (Moo)
     


  2. Medstudies

    Medstudies Peace out sleuths.

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    Look up FE instagram photos. Interesting
     
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  3. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    One of the articles reported that there were photos of the suspect with the knife that pre-date the trip to Italy, demonstrating that he brought the knife/weapon from home to Italy.
     
  4. Legally Bland

    Legally Bland Well-Known Member

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  5. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    Interesting comments!
    Police don't know what happened? Gabriel became aware of what happened after the arrest? Was he not aware of the fact that he was punching someone in the head while his friend was attacking someone else? Did he not see blood on his friend? Was he asleep when the bloody clothing and knife were hidden in the ceiling panels of their hotel room? Do they not realize that a police officer witnessed the entire incident?

    Finnigan Family

    "The kid had a knife," Peers tells the I-Team. "At least in San Francisco certainly, in America, that is not a super surprising thing. People carry it for protection."

    "Well, I don't know what happened," he said. "I am convinced at this point that there is a pretty good chance that the police don't know what happened."​

    Gabriel Family

    "Gabriel never imagined there would be a confrontation and did not know his friend was armed. He only became aware of what actually happened after his arrest."​
     
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  6. FrostOwl

    FrostOwl Well-Known Member

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  7. Legally Bland

    Legally Bland Well-Known Member

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    From the video:

    BBM. I honestly can't recall anyone saying the suspects have been unfairly charged.
     
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  8. Elliot_Alderson

    Elliot_Alderson Well-Known Idiot

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    Maybe at the time he thought they were involved in a fist fight and didn't know that his friend was going to have a knife and murder somebody. Why does it have to be 100% fact that he knew what Finnigan was going to do or that he intended to use a knife? Just because the knife was in the ceiling of the hotel room doesn't mean Finnigan led his friend around by the hand the entire time. For example -- say Finnigan went in the hotel bathroom in his room and closed the door, then cleaned up and hid the knife in the ceiling -- Gabriel would not be privy to that information. I'm not saying that he did or didn't know, but just that there are scenarios where Gabriel may have not known certain aspects. I'm only playing devil's advocate and these are just MOO. We can't present things as fact that we don't know are fact.
     
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  9. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    They also feel that the police don't know what happened, so if the police and the public have it wrong, and their son has it right, why doesn't their son make a public statement?

    I think the families are in for a very rude awakening regarding murder in Italy. They should reach out to Amanda Knox to learn the reality of the situation.
     
  10. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    They went out together to deal with the man who they believed stole from them even though they had the man's backpack. Gabriel punched one officer so fast that the highly skilled carabinieri officer did not have a chance to pull out his gun. It's rather obvious there wasn't much of a conversation, and that Gabriel and Finnegan were going to strike first and talk later.

    Gabriel claims that he did not know that one of the two officers was dead until the next day. Fair enough. Surely it crossed his mind that the deceased officer might be the one he attacked? Can he claim that he did not know that death was a possible consequence of a violent attack?
     
  11. Elliot_Alderson

    Elliot_Alderson Well-Known Idiot

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    Depends on how he's played it. I've been in a situation back in the college days where somebody stole something from a friend of mine, and he asked me to accompany him to retrieve said item. From the moment I got in his car, I certainly was prepared for a scenario where we may end up in a fist fight, or one where we just went home. If we get there and I throw a punch, I'm certainly not expecting my friend to be stabbing the guy or doing anything other than fist fighting as well. If my friend had produced a knife, I would have been none the wiser as to murder being his true intention. Naturally, hindsight being what it is, I could certainly look back and say "it was so obvious" and so on, but there's no way of knowing in the moment. That was all I was trying to convey.

    These kids these days, so quick to turn to the deadly weapon. It's sad. MOO.
     
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  12. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    The two suspects wanted to buy cocaine. They asked one man where to buy cocaine, he pointed out a "dealer", and the two spent something like 80 euros on cocaine. They got crushed aspirin rather than cocaine. They went back to the man who pointed out the dealers and stole his backpack (cell phone in backpack). They said they wanted cocaine and 100 euros in exchange for the backpack. They arrange to meet later that evening. The person with the stolen backpack called police.

    That evening the suspects were met by two plain clothed carabinieri officers rather than the dealers. One was armed, the other was not. The unarmed officer was stabbed 11 times while the other one was punched in the head many times before he could pull out is weapon.

    The suspects ran away, and the punched officer remained with the stabbed officer. There is CCTV of the suspects running from the scene to their hotel, which was a block away from the attack. The suspects then hid their bloody clothing and the knife behind the ceiling tiles.

    It's quite a stretch to claim that one of the suspects didn't know what was going on.
     
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  13. Chiatos

    Chiatos Well-Known Member

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    California police posted on FB:

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Elliot_Alderson

    Elliot_Alderson Well-Known Idiot

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    I'm well aware of what the story is. Now you're saying he had to know what was happenining in the moment. You presented it before as an absolute fact that the one who didn't have a knife was absolutely aware of there being a knife and that the intention was to go murder two people. All I was saying (which, again, was quantified as my opinion) was that you can't say for certain that the other dude was 100% aware. Yeah, he's guilty of seeking and buying drugs, blackmail, amongst other things but I don't see the proof that he was aware.

    Yeah, if you frame it as "he was punching one person, and the other guy started stabbing the second person" then he knew what was going on RIGHT AT THAT MOMENT unless he is blind and/or deaf. Still doesn't equate to him having prior knowledge that FE was going to stab someone 11 times. JMO.
     
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  15. MimosaMornings

    MimosaMornings Well- Known Member

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    Finnegan Lee Elder: Who is the American student from the Bay Area accused of fatally stabbing Italian officer Mario Cerciello Rega?


    “Elder's family tells the ABC7 I-Team they arranged this solo trip to Italy for him, hoping he would have a break from his circle of friends. They booked one night at the Meridian Hotel hotel in Rome so he could meet 18-year-old Natale-Hjorth, who had been visiting his grandfather, who lives near Rome.”

    So Elder needed a break from his friends? Friends he went to high school with? Guessing Hjorth was on the approved friend list. Was that why Elder web to Italy or did Elder want to go there to see his own family too? Or had a great desire to visit Italy and just so happened Hjorth would be there too?
     
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  16. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    Sounds like Finnegan wanted to go to Italy because Gabriel was visiting his grandfather. I think it's significant that Finnegan was not invited to stay with Gabriel's family.
     
  17. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    In the USA, if two people are present when one commits a murder, they are both guilty. Should the law be different in Italy?
     
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  18. FrostOwl

    FrostOwl Well-Known Member

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    Regardless whether NH knew beforehand that FE had a knife or not, according to the Italian police the two of them were on the way to leave Italy when they were arrested. NH was staying with relatives, and I don't think it has been his plans to leave in a hurry, so he must have been aware that something serious had happened, had it just been that he and his friend had punched a drug dealer, who would be less likely to report it to the police, so why were the two planning to leave?
     
  19. 10ofRods

    10ofRods Verified Anthropologist

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    The felony murder rule is, I believe, on a state-by-state basis. And it doesn't just say that one person is the presence of a murder, it says that both people were in the act of committing a felony (any felony) when the murder occurred. This keeps people from being charged with murder merely because a friend or family member kills someone while they're there. Here's a more succinct summary than I can provide:

    Felony murder rule - Wikipedia

    I've been involved in a couple of felony murder rule cases. One involved two men sent to "ask" a woman for the return of a ring, in which one of the men took a weapon and a guard on the property of the woman ended up dead. Man #2 ( who didn't have a weapon) tried to claim he only thought they were there to "ask" for the ring, but Man #1 had bolt cutters and had cut through a fence (charged with felony breaking and entering - so now, both were charged with murder; Man #2 was successful in turning state's witness and getting a reduced charge with no murder conviction . BTW, the bolt cutters were used to retrieve the ring and the guard was killed when he was pushed into a concrete culvert. The court ruled that the subsequent felony (cutting off the woman's finger to get the ring) was enough to hold both of them responsible for the death of the guard but Man #2 plead out.

    The other case was pretty well-publicized, in which a defendant was the getaway car driver after a fight broke out at a party (to which no one in the defendant's group was explicitly invited). One person died as a result of a blow thrown by a member of the defendant's group. Puncher was eventually convicted of 2nd degree murder (along with everyone else in that group). The qualifying felonies in that case included assault and battery (even though only one person in the group was proved to have thrown punches). The prosecution successfully argued that the group went to the party looking to assault and batter. A felony trespass charge was dropped (that was the part I worked on).

    Italy also has the felony murder rule, and in this case, there were at least two felonies in which it looks like both men participated: the drug deal and then the theft of the backpack. Resisting arrest may also be a significant charge in Italy. So yeah, the second man can be charged and possibly found guilty of murder.

    I think he will be charged that way, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's found guilty.
     
  20. MimosaMornings

    MimosaMornings Well- Known Member

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    JMO - it appears the knife in the picture was a MTech Marine fixed blade combat knife.

    I would have sometime like this in the Jeep if I’m out exploring or fishing. No to carry around in a city. But then I wouldn’t use my 45LC as a conceal carry.

    When someone says they carry a knife with them everyday - around here it’s a Swiss Army knife or pocket knife, perhaps a multi-tool. Not a knife like that.

    What’s up with the knife and flash of cash in that picture?
     

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