Discussion in 'Serial Killers' started by wfgodot, May 15, 2011.
Yes that and How's JTRForums.com
If the DNA could be double checked by an independant expert and was found to belong to both the victim and the supposed killer, then I would be very satisfied with that.
Of course there would always be people who would still refuse to believe it. There are a lot of people who have invested a great deal of time and effort into various (and often outlandish) theories about JTR being some famous, emminent person or another.
I can only imagine their disappointment upon finding out that he was just like most serial killers - sad, sick, pathetic and just plain disturbed. Not a genius, not clever and not doing it to send out 'messages' to others.
The legend has almost certainly become much bigger than the truth.
I agree with you, shadowdancer, on all points made. I have never particularly thought JtR was a medical expert or royal personage with VD... To me, it seemed more like a local. someone who knew the streets very well and spent a lot of time in them (observing, for example, how long it takes a bobby to walk his beat..). Someone with mental issues that at least some people were well aware of, including paraphilias of some kind. But I do subscribe a deal of intelligence to him, as well... he was cunning, and did avoid capture by the narrowest margins a couple of times, despite that he killed in relatively busy areas where people could come by - and did - even in the small hours. I don't think he'd need medical expertise or training, to do what he did. I think he'd practised before, either on victims we don't know about (London had plenty of dead and missing transient prostitutes, I dare say, who were never missed) or maybe even corpses. Maybe even a medical chart or book would provide the general location of the organs.. he certainly did not cut like a surgeon. Or even a skilled butcher. They called him 'the ripper' for a reason...
I think Kosminski is a very good suspect. I'm still reserving my party hat for some independent testing, though.
I've been an amateur Ripperologist for many years now (watched several movies, read a few books, including "The Complete History of Jack the Ripper" by Philip Sugden). But I NEVER really thought that this case would end up possibly being solved...not in my lifetime at least.
I don't want to officially say "case closed" just yet.....but on the other hand, this appears to be definitive evidence. Beyond a shadow of a doubt? Perhaps not. Beyond reasonable doubt? Oh yes...I think so.
I'm completely open to reasonable criticism/s which other investigators may have of these DNA results....but....at the moment at least, from what I have read, this appears to be....the end of the story.
The list of everything found with Eddowes at the time of her death is well documented and I don't see this shawl was among them so I imagine that some will suspect that all this is a hoax. I'd first like to know why we should even believe that this is Eddowes' shawl and, if so, why it wasn't listed among her belongings at the time. At present, it doesn't pass the smell test with me.
An earlier DNA test was said to point to Walter Sickert as the Ripper.
Although she probably wasn't a Ripper victim, Wednesday the 10th is the 125th anniversary of the finding of the Pinchin Street Torso. The decapitated murder victim was never identified.
Looks like someone beat me to it ..I was coming here to say that trending on my yahoo news there saying case solved DNA matches..Trending
Jack the Ripper: DNA tests ‘prove’ that Jack the Ripper was a Polish immigrant named Aaron Kosminski
I would like to ask a DNA expert, how easy it would be to plant familial Mt DNA on an item?
A thorough list of everything Eddowes was wearing or carrying, right down to her underwear or lack thereof, was recorded and there is no shawl on the tally. Things of even a minor nature such as "white calico chemise", "white handkerchief", "small tooth comb", "tin match box" and more than two dozen other things are on the list.
the DNA claim has not been independently verfied and even if they were, his 'bodily fluids' being on a shawl only prove that he had contact at some point, not that he murdered anyone
the sensationalism really annoys me - every news outlet has picked up the story and their headlines are all the same blatant propaganda
I could be wrong but I expect this will be reduced to a footnote, along with things like the "diary", a year from now.
HaHa Hey..Don't kill the messenger here folks I was just showing you all what was trending now on yahoo news...
We do know that Kosminski was incarcerated by the time Frances Coles and Carrie Brown were murdered so he's off the hook for those at least.
It would be an incredible development to discover his identity at this point. I have long believed him to be Walter Sickert. Anyone else???
Several years ago I watched a tv program (no idea what it was) that went over the theories and suspects. I remember them talking about how London Police detective Donald Swanson had visited an asylum outside of London shortly after the last murder. Kozminski had recently been admitted there. Shortly thereafter the investigation pretty much shut down mysteriously. Sounds like Swanson had indeed solved the case and for whatever reason ( there could be plenty) kept it internal.
If they have DNA linking him to her, perhaps he was one of her 'clients' iykwim?
I saw a photo of the shawl - one description said it was covered in blood. I can't see any stains on it.
photo from 2007 auction:
scroll down to see shawl:
From what I read, the killings stopped AFTER he was forcibly incarcerated in the insane asylum. But the author may have been wrong.
No. Read the book, not very convincing.
I'm not one of those people with a 'pet' Ripper theory, too invested in it to want to see anyone else's be correct. I would like nothing better than to see the Ripper finally identified.
But here, I must agree with Stan 100% -- there was no such shawl listed in her belongings (and the list really was extensive!). Even if it had been found 'near' her body, it would have been listed in some document or other, surely the list of her belongings though, if it was bloodstained...
I have my doubts here, I really do, for that reason. There's been several semi-clever hoaxes around the Ripper case in years gone by, and yes they do draw headlines in the media -- which, I think, is the point. Massive book sales for the hoaxer...
I think this will get heavy scrutiny from some extremely clever people, including a bunch in law enforcement, so hopefully we'll soon be seeing some informed opinions on the science.
As to Walter Sickert -- now, he might not have been the Ripper? But he had a VERY dark mind and a dark sense of humour to match There's a side to him that makes me see why poor Patty Cornwell spent 6 million of her own money trying to prove him guilty. She's generally ridiculed by serious Ripperologists now, but I ... well, I think he had a lot of secrets, at the very least he was obsessed with a particular type of murder. I don't like him a bit, heh. Wonderful art, though.
Anyway, I won't be purchasing this latest fellow's book until I hear some expert approval of it. Too many "solved" ripper case books on my shelf as it is.
I was reading that it could have had to do with the fact that Kosminski was a Polish Jew. This was in the 1880s when anti-Semitism and xenophobia - but especially anti-Semitism - were widespread in Europe, and the UK was no exception.
The theory states that Scotland Yard was (understandably) concerned that, if the killer was revealed to not only be an immigrant but a Jew as well, it would whip up even more anti-immigrant and anti-Jewish sentiment and possibly lead to violence against the Jewish immigrant community in the area. Which, sadly, makes sense.
You'd think someone would have uncovered all that, though. Or that maybe Scotland Yard would have revealed the identity of the killer all these years later now that the major players are all dead and anti-Semitism isn't nearly as prevalent as it used to be.
Although, I do have a theory for that last part:
It's kind of gross, but many tourists go to Whitechapel simply because of the legend and mystique of Jack the Ripper. We all know the reason why the legend has withstood 125+ years literally just boils down to the fact that this guy was never caught.
I'm going to pull a number out of my butt and say that 80% of Americans only know what Whitechapel is because of the Ripper murders. Hell, the third sentence of its Wikipedia article says that the distict is "best known for the infamous Jack the Ripper murders".
Do you understand how much money local shops, tour guides etc. have made off of people who come to Whitechapel for the Jack the Ripper legend/mystique? They've made a lot, not just from the tourists who come in but from the authors, TV producers, journalists and other Ripperologists who stay for days or weeks to research before doing their book/movie/articles. Seriously, there are dozens of articles online for choosing the best Jack the Ripper tour - so it's obviously lucrative enough to have multiple companies competing.
I really think that, if Scotland Yard had the killer's identity down, the reason why it hasn't been revealed at this point is this: By the time the major players had died and anti-Semitism (mostly) became a relic of the past and it was safe to reveal the identity, Jack the Ripper had become such a lucrative thing that Scotland Yard didn't want to jeopardize that. Once you reveal who the Ripper really was, you strip away all that legend and mystique and the 'boring' truth will come out that it wasn't a charming genius or famous author or part of the royal family. And then there goes the Jack the Ripper "industry".
ETA: I don't think it's some big conspiracy where people are making money off of it and know who the killer was all along. I think it was just that, by the time Scotland Yard was deciding on whether to release the killer's identity, they thought about it and decided to just leave it so they wouldn't jeopardize the whole industry. This theory, of course, hinges on whether they've known who it was all along.