Jahi’s family wants her declared 'alive again’

[SwampMama]

<modsnip>

The main thing I saw over and over is that we have ALL lost a loved one and had to accept tragedy and loss. We have all had deal with a seemingly unbearable burden and gracefully accept loss and carry on. We didn't demand the whole world stop and make our case a special one, different than any other case before and above the law. We came to terms with the inevitable, accepted the cold hard facts, even if it broke our heart to do so.

The dead are dead and we can't change that. Life goes on and we have to go on with it for the sake of those that we love that are still living. I can't imagine what this has done to Jahi's younger siblings as their lives have been disrupted and their needs have taken a back seat to their dead sibling. Even their graduations were hijacked in order to promote Jahi. Their graduation gown was turned into a billboard for Jahi at a school event that should have been all about them. The needs of the living children are pushed aside so that the dead sibling gets extraordinary care. So freaking sad.

Enough is enough.

 

[XXXXXXXX]

I think you need to re-read Git's post. I did not get, what you got from it at all.

I re-read Gitano's post and still come to the same conclusion as the other poster.

 

[TJL]

I've been thinking about what legal options the family has available to them, at this point. I don't believe they are done with legal action, and I think they're trying to figure out how and where to file another action.

It does seem, IMO, that it is not even remotely possibly that they could achieve a court ruling that would determine Jahi is "alive again", and hence they must rely on their own and donated resources for care. NW has said her goals are to have Jahi's death certificate revoked, so that she is eligible for health insurance and other financial benefits, as well as cared for in a health care facility. She has never really indicated that she personally wanted to have Jahi's care provided in a home environment. However, if they can pursue a settlement or award in a wrongful death case, then there is potentially at least $250K that would be available to them (absent the attorney cut) that could be used for Jahi's somatic support. While the uncle called that "chump change", it is something, when all other "big dollar" avenues appear to be dead ends. (And it doesn't appear that either NW or her husband have been employed anywhere for the past year, so like anyone, they need income.)

The original California court judge expressed serious doubt that his court was the proper place for challenging the death certificate. I'm not sure if they could file something in a New Jersey court-- that might be very complicated. And it would mean that they would have to have at least one NJ attorney to help them, even if Atty Dolan were to apply to be part of a potential case in NJ.

So then I started thinking about a possible Federal case, but can't think what it would be based on, except for discrimination or a civil rights violation? I don't think a legally dead person could bring a lawsuit for civil rights violation, but maybe NW could? As in, "my civil rights/ religious beliefs were violated when they declared Jahi brain dead"? But the remedy would be exactly what they are receiving in New Jersey-- the right to continue ventilator care until cardiac death. No one is attempting to take Jahi off the vent. And I couldn't imagine that any kind of federal lawsuit could survive if it was based on a diagnosis of death being discrimination?

I do think that the family will try again with some kind of legal action to try to obtain money. Personally, I think after last month's activities, where they filed, and then withdrew the "alive again" petition, that they won't try that again. And I personally think they are likely struggling with "when" to abandon the "alive again" legal maneuvers, and switch to pursuing a civil complaint based on wrongful death. Once they do that, they have to acknowledge that Jahi is legally dead-- and they don't seem ready to do that yet. Maybe as the statute of limitations draws closer, they will file something, to preserve their options.

What I'm curious about is, can the family begin to pursue a wrongful death civil lawsuit in California while Jahi's body is still receiving somatic support on the ventilator in New Jersey? I'm not sure about the statute of limitations, either, as this has become a unique case due to the family's desire to continue the ventilator for a year after the brain death determination, and court proceedings re-confirming that diagnosis.

For any attorneys, what do you see as any potential legal options for NW?

My opinion on the wrongful death avenue is that it presents an entirely difficult "catch-22"situation for them.

For starters, they've held with the court of law and the court of public opinion all along that Jahi never died, and have reinforced that perceived notion that Jahi's body is improving back to the land of the living. This takes away the strongest part of their case where they could suggest that Jahi died at CHO, at the negligence of CHO.

Okay, so then we move to the wrongful death after the result of inadequate care which occurred at CHO. They might try this avenue, suggesting that because of the catastrophic brain "injury" (read: death) they're claiming Jahi suffered at CHO, Jahi died ex post facto. Except this is kind of blocked, also, because the settlement Grillo signed off on in January between Nailah and CHO was that CHO would release the body to the coroner and Nailah could take the body from there, so long as Nailah would agree to the stipulation that anything that happened after the moment CHO released the body to the coroner, then CHO was no longer responsible or liable.

Nailah accepted that, Grillo signed off on it. It's a matter of public record (this settlement agreement to release the body). With all this time having gone by, they'd have a real hard time convincing any judge or jury that Jahi's death resulted from CHO's wrongdoing, if Nailah has been saying all along that Jahi didn't die at CHO, Jahi is improving since release from CHO, and that CHO was not responsible for anything happening after the body left the hospital.

All JMVHO, of course. I see a string of logic in all of it where one piece contradicts with the possibility of another, and one scenario overriding another, back and forth.

So I also think you're right. To pursue a wrongful death case, they would first have to concede that Jahi died at CHO on December 9th, 2013. This is not something they are ready or even remotely prepared to do. It would mean having to answer to A LOT of people, and charities, and politicians, and the media about what all the effort was for...and money...if they finally admit that they know Jahi died over a year ago. It would open doors for criminal complaints against the family, IMHO. Wire fraud, mail fraud, bank fraud (just to name a few of the federal crimes associated with taking "donations" for a fraudulent purpose across state and international lines...many people have had to answer for similar crimes when they've claimed to have cancer when they actually did not, etc).

Would Dolan risk his stellar reputation for all the media attention he craved under the pretense that Jahi didn't die there? It would be a public spectacle, and I don't think Grillo would be any bit too happy about having his court turned into a circus for the sake of Dolan's ego, and then also have damning evidence that Dolan deliberately lied to and misled the court on the record.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Nailah accepted that, Grillo signed off on it. It's a matter of public record (this settlement agreement to release the body). With all this time having gone by, they'd have a real hard time convincing any judge or jury that Jahi's death resulted from CHO's wrongdoing, if Nailah has been saying all along that Jahi didn't die at CHO, Jahi is improving since release from CHO, and that CHO was not responsible for anything happening after the body left the hospital.

I don't think I ever realized how smart and forward-thinking it was for CHO to do that until you spelled it out. Obviously a sharp attorney was on their game that day. It essentially means that her family can't try to blame anyone but themselves for anything that's happened in the last year. It's a fascinating corner they've painted themselves into. "She's not dead but if she is it's CHO's fault, except we already stated they didn't kill her, because she's not dead." Ooops.

(And please don't let that emoticon nonsense stop you from posting.)

 

[Hiandmighty]

What is the statute of limitations for death from medical malpractice/negligence/ etc in California?

The family may have made a (excuse me) fatal error in trying to get more than "chump change"

 

[gitana1]

I've been thinking about what legal options the family has available to them, at this point. I don't believe they are done with legal action, and I think they're trying to figure out how and where to file another action.

It does seem, IMO, that it is not even remotely possibly that they could achieve a court ruling that would determine Jahi is "alive again", and hence they must rely on their own and donated resources for care. NW has said her goals are to have Jahi's death certificate revoked, so that she is eligible for health insurance and other financial benefits, as well as cared for in a health care facility. She has never really indicated that she personally wanted to have Jahi's care provided in a home environment. However, if they can pursue a settlement or award in a wrongful death case, then there is potentially at least $250K that would be available to them (absent the attorney cut) that could be used for Jahi's somatic support. While the uncle called that "chump change", it is something, when all other "big dollar" avenues appear to be dead ends. (And it doesn't appear that either NW or her husband have been employed anywhere for the past year, so like anyone, they need income.)

The original California court judge expressed serious doubt that his court was the proper place for challenging the death certificate. I'm not sure if they could file something in a New Jersey court-- that might be very complicated. And it would mean that they would have to have at least one NJ attorney to help them, even if Atty Dolan were to apply to be part of a potential case in NJ.

So then I started thinking about a possible Federal case, but can't think what it would be based on, except for discrimination or a civil rights violation? I don't think a legally dead person could bring a lawsuit for civil rights violation, but maybe NW could? As in, "my civil rights/ religious beliefs were violated when they declared Jahi brain dead"? But the remedy would be exactly what they are receiving in New Jersey-- the right to continue ventilator care until cardiac death. No one is attempting to take Jahi off the vent. And I couldn't imagine that any kind of federal lawsuit could survive if it was based on a diagnosis of death being discrimination?

I do think that the family will try again with some kind of legal action to try to obtain money. Personally, I think after last month's activities, where they filed, and then withdrew the "alive again" petition, that they won't try that again. And I personally think they are likely struggling with "when" to abandon the "alive again" legal maneuvers, and switch to pursuing a civil complaint based on wrongful death. Once they do that, they have to acknowledge that Jahi is legally dead-- and they don't seem ready to do that yet. Maybe as the statute of limitations draws closer, they will file something, to preserve their options.

What I'm curious about is, can the family begin to pursue a wrongful death civil lawsuit in California while Jahi's body is still receiving somatic support on the ventilator in New Jersey? I'm not sure about the statute of limitations, either, as this has become a unique case due to the family's desire to continue the ventilator for a year after the brain death determination, and court proceedings re-confirming that diagnosis.

For any attorneys, what do you see as any potential legal options for NW?

They can can bring a wrongful death suit even though her body is being maintained on life support in New Jersey. Because Jahi has been declared legally dead. But that would put them in a strange position. I see no opportunities for them to obtain funds through a lawsuit except malpractice or wrongful death. The cap in CA is 250k though for pain and suffering. There is no cap on on-going medical care though, which may be one of the strategic reasons for wanting Jahi declared alive- then the hospital could be sued for the on-going costs of keeping her body going. Perhaps that would enable in-home care.

They are running out of time and evidence when it comes to a wrongful death suit- 1 more year before the SOL is up I believe. And as articles have pointed out, with her body on life support for so long, it becomes harder for an autopsy to determine the COD. Plus, as I stated above, it would be odd for them to file such a suit when try re claiming their daughter is alive. But we shall see.

The reason the heart is ticking is because the body is on life support. If they turned off the ventilator the heart will stop beating and it will be over quickly. A lot of effort and expense to maintain a body on life support for no apparent reason. She can not recover from brain death.

I think you know you don't have to instruct me or anyone else who has been following this case as to the science of brain death.

However, I have seen ever more dramatic claims being spouted everywhere in an attempt to support the immediate disconnection of the "plug", such as her brain would totally liquefy within weeks, her body is turning black from decay, etc.

While I did not anticipate that Jahi's body would be able to be maintained for as long as this, clearly, she is not a rotting corpse. Science enables a body to continue for various periods, without brain function. I still think, though, that Jahi's heart will simply cease beating at a certain point, regardless of the life support. Most brain dead people's bodies do not last too long- no actual decay, which is what begins to happen when blood is no longer being circulated through tissues- but cellular damage of various kinds does occur.

And either way, I continue to believe that this should've been handled differently by the hospital and that the law should consider this type of choice a private family matter such that if the family can find a facility willing to sustain life support- so be it.

I continue to view this family as tragic, grief-stricken and distrustful people who cannot accept the inevitable due to the suddenness, the promises made to the child and her age, basically guilt and severe grief, but who, if treated with continuing empathy, would eventually process the death of their daughter. I think everyone processes and handles grief differently and some not as rationally as others.

Calling them grifters or otherwise vilifying them as crazy monsters who need to be forced to change their delusions, is not right, IMO.

 

[gitana1]

I don't think I ever realized how smart and forward-thinking it was for CHO to do that until you spelled it out. Obviously a sharp attorney was on their game that day. It essentially means that her family can't try to blame anyone but themselves for anything that's happened in the last year. It's a fascinating corner they've painted themselves into. "She's not dead but if she is it's CHO's fault, except we already stated they didn't kill her, because she's not dead." Ooops.

(And please don't let that emoticon nonsense stop you from posting.)

I try not to be rude. I wish you could do the same. I've never called someone else's post or opinion "nonsense." It is possible to express strong opinions without resorting to ridicule.

 

[TJL]

I try not to be rude. I wish you could do the same. I've never called someone else's post or opinion "nonsense." It is possible to express strong opinions without resorting to ridicule.

It's cool. I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to be rude, either. I do, however, believe that taking comments out of context - either intentionally or deliberately - is probably not very constructive or conducive to the discussion. It's one thing to ask someone what they mean by their opinions or comments, it's perhaps another thing entirely to bluntly call them out and force them to explain themselves because you did not understand what they meant or just chose to be offended without taking in several months worth of contextual posts.

Anyways, I do hope you are satisfied with what satisfies me. I'd be happy to discuss further in PM's.

Back to the discussion. I'm pleased you chimed in about the SoL and wrongful death aspects. I am getting the impression we are perhaps on the same page here, in that with the family maintaining all the along that Jahi never died at CHO and the length of time passing since the stint there complicates being able to prove CHO even caused it ex post facto. The mother paints herself into a tough corner with each IG, Twitter, or Go Fund Me post that says Jahi is improving. Making claims that the body is doing things that only a conscious, living, self-preserving human being could possibly do are all pretty damning pieces of testimonial evidence against a wrongful death case. IMHO. Let me know if we're on the same page here.

 

[Muffet]

<modsnip>
The main thing I saw over and over is that we have ALL lost a loved one and had to accept tragedy and loss. We have all had deal with a seemingly unbearable burden and gracefully accept loss and carry on. We didn't demand the whole world stop and make our case a special one, different than any other case before and above the law. We came to terms with the inevitable, accepted the cold hard facts, even if it broke our heart to do so.

The dead are dead and we can't change that. Life goes on and we have to go on with it for the sake of those that we love that are still living. I can't imagine what this has done to Jahi's younger siblings as their lives have been disrupted and their needs have taken a back seat to their dead sibling. Even their graduations were hijacked in order to promote Jahi. Their graduation gown was turned into a billboard for Jahi at a school event that should have been all about them. The needs of the living children are pushed aside so that the dead sibling gets extraordinary care. So freaking sad.

Enough is enough.

:goodpost: Thank you.

I don't think I've posted on this thread, but I have much appreciated y'alls recognition of the implications of this case and your diligence in researching and keeping us informed.

I had compassion for the mother last year and expressed it on their Facebook page.

But I still find this entire exercise to be both macabre and fraudulent.

It has also been apparent from the beginning that this child was going to be used by the radical group that organized over the Terri Schiavo nightmare. I'm not sure if the mother is honestly delusional or not, so I won't go there.

The people I see encouraging her to continue this morbid farce are beneath contempt to me. I don't care if they're tinfoilers or religious extremists who believe it's for the greater good. If they are that blind, it's a willful ignorance and obstinate refusal to acknowledge the facts or seek the truth.

Most important, it isn't benign. I don't have to list all the victims and harmful sequelea. You all have noted them very well already.

As SwampMama said, enough is enough. (And we reached that point many months ago. imo)

Sent from Tapatalk

 

[Hiandmighty]

I'll go on record here saying that in my opinion, Jahi will never ever be declared alive again because she isn't alive. She is dead and from here on out, will always be dead. Given the amount of support her body has been getting, it is interesting to me that her heart is still beating... But that is all it is. Interesting. No indication of anything more than brain dead.

I also find her mother's selfies and reports to be delusional (I believe from profound and unattended grief) and I find it super distasteful her selfies about her designer "treats" she buys herself.

We have well into a 6 figure income and I have never bought myself designer treats like mom has. I have ONE LV bag and it is 8 years old; I have also NEVER fund raised online for any personal cause.

I wish online fundraisers were subjected to auditing because I am also to the point where I believe it could be fraudulent. Deceitful. Profound grief or not. I believe this part needs to be discussed.

 

[XXXXXXXX]

I continue to believe that this should've been handled differently by the hospital and that the law should consider this type of choice a private family matter such that if the family can find a facility willing to sustain life support- so be it.

I continue to view this family as tragic, grief-stricken and distrustful people who cannot accept the inevitable due to the suddenness, the promises made to the child and her age, basically guilt and severe grief, but who, if treated with continuing empathy, would eventually process the death of their daughter. I think everyone processes and handles grief differently and some not as rationally as others.

Calling them grifters or otherwise vilifying them as crazy monsters who need to be forced to change their delusions, is not right, IMO.

This would have been a private and family matter. IF her mother and other family hadn't gone on camera declaring that Jahi was NOT dead. If they hadn't started some donation site asking for other people to keep her "alive" even though there is a death certificate on file.

I watched my own mother die under what I consider to have been malpractice. I'm convinced that if she had been given proper treatment she would have lived. I couldn't (wouldn't argue) with the staff. My mother had signed a DNR even though at the time she signed it she had been diagnosed with dementia and advanced Alzheimer's. I questioned that. Asked HOW anyone diagnosed with those two conditions could LEGALLY sign a DNR and expect the medical staff to honor it.

I didn't get any satisfactory answers, but knowing my Mom and our previous discussions on this topic, I reluctantly let the staff slide and didn't challenge it when they failed to even give her water for 3 days after she had seized and became comatose. I actually had POA over my Mom's medical decisions. I COULD have made an *** out of myself and argued.

I realize that I'm talking apples and oranges here, though. My point is that this family knows that after a year, she's not going to open her eyes and admire her mani-pedi and ask "what's for lunch"?

My own experience was a heart breakingly difficult one to sit through. Maybe you would consider I was in the wrong. Maybe you and others think I should have dug my heels in and demanded that she be kept on life support.
<modsnip> The problem (as I see it) is that they refuse to recognize that actual medical doctors evaluated her and declared her dead.

They just keep agitating. I know the pain of losing a loved one. Most of us do. But most of us know when to let go and not drag things out to the point of dishonoring the memory of those we lost.

That won't be a popular opinion with most on this thread. One thing I've learned since I registered here is that it's not wise to disagree with established posters. Sorry. I'm not being rude as someone else was accused of being. I just remain hopeful that more than one opinion can be expressed.

I'm not so much concerned with the legal minutiae as I am with the simple basic morality of this situation.

 

[Hiandmighty]

I really believe what they are doing is desecration of a dead body. I wish there were a way to stop it.

 

[Tulessa]

I really believe what they are doing is desecration of a dead body. I wish there were a way to stop it.

A lot of us believe this way.

 

[Muffet]

I really believe what they are doing is desecration of a dead body. I wish there were a way to stop it.

ITA. And one of the most aggravating proofs of the group's intellectual dishonesty is their pretense that she's merely in a coma.

I have seen medical professionals kindly, repeatedly, thoroughly explain the difference to them. They cover their ears and scream or change the subject, until the uncle who maintains the page (assuming he's still admin) deletes the truth they don't want to acknowledge.

Then they go right back to saying, "Hang in there, because (anecdotal experience of someone coming out of a COMA)!"

... Or someone who was told by someone that their loved one was possibly "brain dead", but testing revealed it wasn't.

They willfully refuse to acknowledge that they are using apples to prove oranges.

If this mother is honestly delusional, then they have done her no favors by feeding into her delusions.

Jahi will never, ever "wake up," period. Holding back that truth in the name of compassion is, at best, truly cruel and a sign of maladaptive thinking akin to that of codependency.

Sent from Tapatalk

 

[XXXXXXXX]

A lot of us believe this way.

Sadly, some people would rather advance their own agendas rather than to just let go.

I should qualify that in the case of my Mom, she had not only been diagnosed with dementia and Alzheimer's but also advanced Parkinson's.

She could no longer feed herself. Her motor skills had deteriorated to the point where she couldn't hold a fork, much less get food into her own mouth. The nursing home staff had to puree her food and sit and hand feed her. She couldn't even swallow the food that was put into her mouth. She had lost even motor control over swallowing.

When I mentioned that I COULD have exercised POA and insisted she be kept on life support and that she'd still be alive? What I DIDN'T clarify enough in my earlier post is that she would have had no QUALITY of life if I had chosen the selfish route.

I don't think any of us would willingly choose that semi-existence for ourselves. It's just too damned sad that, Jahi, as a child had no say over what her family has done to her.

 

[Tulessa]

Sadly, some people would rather advance their own agendas rather than to just let go.

I should qualify that in the case of my Mom, she had not only been diagnosed with dementia and Alzheimer's but also advanced Parkinson's.

She could no longer feed herself. Her motor skills had deteriorated to the point where she couldn't hold a fork, much less get food into her own mouth. The nursing home staff had to puree her food and sit and hand feed her. She couldn't even swallow the food that was put into her mouth. She had lost even motor control over swallowing.

When I mentioned that I COULD have exercised POA and insisted she be kept on life support and that she'd still be alive? What I DIDN'T clarify enough in my earlier post is that she would have had no QUALITY of life if I had chosen the selfish route.

I don't think any of us would willingly choose that semi-existence for ourselves. It's just too damned sad that, Jahi, as a child had no say over what her family has done to her.

I'm so very sorry for your loss. :grouphug:

 

[XXXXXXXX]

I'm so very sorry for your loss. :grouphug:

Thanks, sweetie. I read your thread and I'm so very sorry for the tragedy you had to endure. At least my loss was due to natural causes and yours was due to malice. I love your sig line, btw.

I'm part Cherokee.

 

[SwampMama]

Let me throw my own emoticon into all of this :grouphug: .

Because this one really represents all of us. Yes we can have different opinions and see things differently and even misunderstands. But in the end, we are all here because we care. Each of us has so many different things to bring into this such as expertise in medicine or law, experience with similar tragedies and our own unique qualities.

Anyone who sticks around here long enough gets to know different posters as they see them in other threads and sometimes we agree completely and sometimes not. But because we have that history together we can still respect each other even when we completely disagree because we now that soon enough we will be in total agreement on another thread.

Sometimes we :blowkiss: and sometimes we or even want to :slap: or :slapfight: each other. But in the end, we can usually find ourselves like this :grouphug: That's the wonderful thing about WS and why I love it here.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I'll go on record here saying that in my opinion, Jahi will never ever be declared alive again because she isn't alive. She is dead and from here on out, will always be dead. Given the amount of support her body has been getting, it is interesting to me that her heart is still beating... But that is all it is. Interesting. No indication of anything more than brain dead.

I also find her mother's selfies and reports to be delusional (I believe from profound and unattended grief) and I find it super distasteful her selfies about her designer "treats" she buys herself.

We have well into a 6 figure income and I have never bought myself designer treats like mom has. I have ONE LV bag and it is 8 years old; I have also NEVER fund raised online for any personal cause.

I wish online fundraisers were subjected to auditing because I am also to the point where I believe it could be fraudulent. Deceitful. Profound grief or not. I believe this part needs to be discussed.

I agree.

Just in case there are new thread readers around, a quick refresher: Jahi's uncle Omari Sealey (who claimed to be there during Jahi's surgery, but IIRC was later revealed by IG posts to have been in Cabo at the time) very quickly started doing the cable news rounds, which I believe is where we have the 'chump change' quote's origin. He was also instrumental in blackmailing the school (and then bragging about it afterwards) into giving Jahi a diploma or grad certificate or whatever, and making the entire class's ceremony about her. I believe the specifics were that he'd threatened them with media hounding if they didn't cave.

<modsnip>

<modsnip>

Pointing these things out doesn't mean we are not able to feel compassion or to view the situation as a tragedy. That it is being allowed to continue and to affect the lives of other children (such as Jahi's classmates, who in addition to having their class ceremony hijacked were asked to pray for Jahi to 'wake up'--nice thing to do to a kid's head, while also making them really afraid of hospitals), and confuse people about the permanence of brain death, is also a tragedy.

 

[Nore]

I really believe what they are doing is desecration of a dead body. I wish
there were a way to stop it.

-------------
Hi, I absolutely agree with you. I never could have treated my son as they have treated Jahi. From what I remember she had a massive heart attack from loss of blood. Her heart stopped beating ( just as my husbands did.) That to me is death . This was a fact. They restarted it. She did experience actual death. To keep her "alive" via a machine is desecration beyond words. I've said it before , if they feel she is alive then pull the plug and prove it. This makes me totally sick to my stomach. I could not live with myself.. Thanks for listening. I just get so upset for this lovely child.