James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Tricia, Jul 18, 2012.

  1. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,634
    Likes Received:
    953
    Trophy Points:
    113
    blefuscu,
    What Patsy knew is open for debate, similarly what BR knew is also open for debate.

    The reason knowledge is distributed rather than shared might be because all three knew what they were engaged in and wished to share as little as possible.

    Because the R's had a planned flight they had to find JonBenet missing when they did, 9 AM, was too late.

    The trick in this case is to work out whether Patsy is covering for BR or JR is covering for BR or both?

    If neither then explain why the parents forensic evidence is found on JonBenet?


    .
     
  2. blefuscu

    blefuscu Bsc (hons) Criminology

    Messages:
    1,997
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    0
    In that case I go back to what I really think happened and that is JR on his own was responsible and his clean up op went wrong when Patsy panicked, ignored the instructions on the ransom note and phoned the police and he couldn't get the body out of the house.
     
  3. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,634
    Likes Received:
    953
    Trophy Points:
    113
    blefuscu,
    Have you considered what you think might be incorrect?

    A theory with no evidence to back it up is well, just a theory, e.g. DocG.

    I have many stories I can tell you about the death of JonBenet, but most lack evidence, even what I think is the the most obvious solution relating to the pageant aspect.


    .
     
  4. blefuscu

    blefuscu Bsc (hons) Criminology

    Messages:
    1,997
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Many things could be incorrect, it's just my summizing. I have no more clue as to what happened as anyone else not in the house that night. I've just put out there why I think it wasn't BDI or why I think it's wasn't the parents acting together. I have no clue if I'm right.
     
  5. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,027
    Likes Received:
    122
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Patsy may have not though the body would be found, but she had to know that JB's clothing would be removed for an autopsy and embalming. She wouldn't want the soiled panties to be seen.
     
  6. Nom de plume

    Nom de plume New Member

    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I understand your point, but just because a theory cannot be proven with the evidence that we are aware of, it does not mean that theory is incorrect, what ever theory it may be.

    Add the fact that so much of the evidence can be seen from so many different angles, and attributed to several different people, and proving any theory becomes almost impossible. After all, not one of us here has been able to prove any theory correct.
     
  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,634
    Likes Received:
    953
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nom de plume,
    I agree. Although proving any particular theory might be difficult, we can with a pinch of common sense reject many theories, thereby reducing the number of angles to be considered.

    Kolar demonstrates this in his book when he rejects the Foreign Faction theory due to a lack of multiple forensic evidence, not proof, but convincing.


    .
     
  8. squish

    squish Member

    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I think that Burke and JB when downstairs in the middle of the night to search for presents (as some had been held back for Burke's birthday in January). While they were downstairs, Burke fetched JB some pineapple, perhaps because she was too short to reach wherever it was stored. I don't think the pineapple has any hidden meaning, other than that it happened.

    IIRC some of the presents were hidden in the basement. Burke had a history of jealous attacks on JB. For example, faeces had been smeared on her box of chocolates. I believe that the children found something in the presents that caused Burke to hit JB over the head in a jealous attack. He could have sexually assaulted her before or after.

    Remember the James Bulger case? He was tortured to death and horrifically sexually molested by two boys, only a couple of months older than Burke. One of those boys has grown up to be a confirmed paedophile who was posing on the internet, seemingly trying to find victims. He also had a file of over 1000 photos he'd taken of up women's skirts. My point is that Burke was certainly old enough to be perverted and a sexual predator, and also violent.
     
  9. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,972
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    48
    anyone?pls?
     
  10. midwest mama

    midwest mama Active Member

    Messages:
    1,293
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    38
    The only package of size 12 panties I know about related to the case which have been accounted for to the public were the ones sent to LE from the Ramseys after they had relocated to Atlanta - about 2 years after the crime, IIRC. The Wednesdays were missing. It was said they were found among their belongings when unpacking. Of course, their DNA would be on the package because they would have had to handle it to "discover it" and then ship it off to LE. Riiiiggghhht.........
     
  11. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,634
    Likes Received:
    953
    Trophy Points:
    113
    squish,
    You could be right, maybe BR and JonBenet visited the basement and the rest is history.

    The Bulger case is well known along with its bizarre consequences regarding liberal penal policy in the UK.

    So is BR in that category, maybe, nobody has given him his Get Out Of Jail Card so far.

    I reckon stuff happened in a bedroom, then it was staged in the basement.

    There could have been two staged events one upstairs and one down in the basemement.

    The unknown to everyone is who was abusing JonBenet? Was it PR because she seemed to contribute the most to the staging, or was it JR because he wrote himself out of the script?

    .
     
  12. Venom

    Venom New Member

    Messages:
    1,304
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So why wasn't this package of panties found during the search of the house and taken as evidence? Just like the R's not having to give the clothes they were wearing that night to the police until years later.
    :facepalm:
     
  13. midwest mama

    midwest mama Active Member

    Messages:
    1,293
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Because the package was taken out with the other items the "intruder" removed when leaving?? No problem for him to get in the night of the crime, commit the crime, and then exit with goods and not leave any incriminating evidence behind, so why couldn't he have managed to slip back in again after the police were done gathering evidence and before the Ramsey goods were packed for the move to stash the panties, so as to further incriminate the R's??

    It took a pretty clever intruder to leave those "clever clues" that JR seemed to notice.
     
  14. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,972
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    48

    just speculating here but MAYBE PR left those little clues for LE (JDI)...dictionary/incest,heart in JB's hand linking to heart drawn on newspaper (JR's face)?
     
  15. txsvicki

    txsvicki Active Member

    Messages:
    14,192
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    38
    One thing I've always speculated about the panties was due to LHP statements. She said that Patsy always made efforts to keep kids quiet when John was home, and told of Jonbenet screaming in the bathroom with Patsy after wetting. If the panties were in the basement and the blanket in the dryer, could Patsy have caught a wet Jonbenet downstairs or wet and then started the correction in the kitchen intending to cleanup in the basement so not to disturb John. If the blanket was in the basement dryer a pair of older panties and that pink gown could also have been in the dryer.
     
  16. questfortrue

    questfortrue Active Member

    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Wondered the same thing. It was clear the RN was not real, however, it seemed to be particularly strange in its fingerpointing towards JR, on the one hand taking a solicitous tone towards JR and on the other, sternly telling JR not to mess this up – “It’s up to you J.” What it made me consider was that before the police arrival and after, both PR and JR were not on the same page or were in an emotionally distanced state with each other.

    Initially, the dictionary made me think that perhaps BR had looked up the word. But BR was upstairs during the parents’ discussion, pretending to be asleep. Then upon reflection, thought maybe one of the friends decided to leave police a clue. Later pondered that if one of the friends knew something, it would be revealed most likely by calling the BPD rather than by leaving a dictionary clue which might not be seen. So then back to PR. It “smacks” of a clue by PR, imo, and if PR did leave the “clue” with the dictionary, she wouldn’t be pointing to her son. I’m sure of that. The reason I suggest the dictionary clue resonates of PR is because of her cryptic acronym usage.

    There was a strange response to the heart drawn on JB’s hand. She said something about the kids drawing on one another’s hands. Why deny that she used to draw the hearts on JB, signifying her heart was in JB’s hand? One possibility, unless, maybe, she was trying to leave this a mystery or “clue” for police. Clues which PR would discuss with BPD, in the event JR did not do what he was supposed to do. All moo.

    Long and wordy here. I’m not good at short responses.
     
  17. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

    Messages:
    996
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It's been such a long haul, and Team Ramsey has managed to take an already difficult case which is really hampered by TOO MUCH evidence and make it worse over time with all the changing stories from the Ramseys.

    But here is what I remember about the Bloomies story, from the Ramsey interviews with LE through the years.

    LE collected all of JB's panties from her bedroom/bathroom. A detective specifically stated they were all size 4 to 6, though Patsy tried to convince them JB actually wore size 8-10 when questioned in Atlanta about how large those Bloomies found on the child actually were. She even said there wasn't much difference in a pair two sizes too big and those that actually fit the child. [See my avatar for clarification.]

    During that interview, Patsy stated variously that: she gave JB the package of Bloomies because the child begged for them; JB opened the package herself; that Patsy put the panties in JB's panty drawer; that JB dressed herself and wore them to the White's party.

    Remember that interview was in 2000, with Lin Wood running interference and giving Patsy cues as to when she was getting in trouble, not to mention arguing with the LE interviewers endlessly himself. (Yet another attempt by the Ramseys to pretend to be cooperating when in fact much of the time was spent with LE arguing with Wood so the Ramseys wouldn't in fact answer specific questions or if they finally did, with his argument Wood had given them pre-answer info they needed to dodge any tricky areas.)

    So the upshot was that Patsy was inconsistent in her story and that according to her, there was nothing wrong with JB wearing those huge pair of Bloomies, don't we all wear our underwear 2 sizes too large? (I don't because it's completely uncomfortable--try it. I don't believe for one minute a six year old would be able to keep up that underwear or want to try: see my avatar for a model made by poster Jayelles in her demonstration of how preposterous that would be. The "Bloomies model" link at the bottom of my posts goes to the FFJ threads with the full set of photos and details about the demonstration.)

    We have Patsy also admitting during that 2000 interview that she knew there was some issue over the underwear found on the child, as well. In point of fact, the detective questioning Patsy about this tells her right then and there that they must ask about this because it's important evidence in the event of an "intruder" arrest.

    I mention the specifics of this interview not just because we again see Patsy Ramsey artfully dodging the facts and fudging her answers as she goes to actually make an argument that the Bloomies found on the child were not in any way suspicious, but because she said she already knew in August of 2000 they were an issue and was also told this was important evidence.

    Fast forward...or I should say, hit the SLOW MOTION button...to 2002, when Mary Lacy quit hiding her loyalties and went full-on Team Ramsey, working with Lin Wood to take the investigation of this murder out of the BPD's hands and essentially beginning the final steps in burying it forever during her terms as DA.

    Not until Dec. 2002 did that package of size 12-14 Bloomies, alleged by Wood to be THE package from which those found on the body came, get handed over as evidence to Mary Lacy, then in charge of the investigation, with some fishy story about how they were located. A story which, I might add, was told a couple of different ways by Team Ramsey shills over time.

    Two stories floated at online forums from alleged "inside sources" about how that happened were:

    1. The package was found in boxes the Ramseys had stored in Atlanta, packed at the Boulder home during their move to Atlanta by other private detectives who worked for Team Ramsey after the murder. The boxes then sat in a basement or some such in Atlanta until another detective working for Team Ramsey went through them looking for the infamous "Santa Teddy Bear" after the June 1998 interview in which Patsy saw it in a crime scene photo of JB's beds and claimed she'd never seen it before. (A long hunt for that bear followed, involving another intruder theory hawked endlessly that it was brought to entice JB, etc. Turned out it was a gift/award from her last pageant, with a photo of the bear surfacing on an awards table from that pageant. I don't know if the Ramseys ever found it, but if they did, it hasn't been revealed. Ha.)

    2. In another version of the story, the package was found when the Ramseys and/or their private detectives were looking for their clothing worn at the White's party and the next day, to hand over to the BPD a year after the murder, so that would be around late '97 or early '98.

    [I know this is ridiculous to continue at this point, but after nearly 17 years of this kind of absolute nonsense from Team Ramsey, I am determined to demonstrate the kind of roadblocks put up by the Ramseys in the investigation of their child's murder, though they always claimed they were so cooperative. PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK!]

    Did I mention FIVE YEARS after the child's death a critical piece of evidence was finally turned over to Ramsey sympathizer Lacy for "investigation"?

    That would be TWO YEARS after Patsy Ramsey admitted ON THE RECORD to LE that she already knew it was an issue, was told point blank by LE it was important, critical evidence...and yet never ONCE mentioned she knew where that package was during that interview.

    Team Ramsey continued to hold onto that package until Wood managed to stage an unprecedented legal coup in a murder investigation by wresting it away from the only LE agency that should have ever had control over it once it became a murder and not a kidnapping--the BPD.

    I must bring up another point, which I find equally damning against the Ramseys to contemplate: why did some obscure, aged private detective, relegated to sifting through god knows how many boxes for various clothing items or a child's toy, notice this package among all that detritus packed by strangers at the Ramsey's cluttered Boulder home?

    At that time, most of us had never even heard of the size 12-14 Bloomies. Yet this old man not only "found" the package, but pulled it out of thousands of items in boxes and brought it to Team Ramseys' attention, didn't he?

    Did Team Ramsey exclaim, "HEY! IMPORTANT EVIDENCE! IT MIGHT HAVE FINGERPRINTS OR DNA ON IT FROM THAT OLD INTRUDER! LET'S TURN IT OVER FOR PROCESSING IMMEDIATELY!" Um...no. Instead, they hid it from LE for years.

    Let me say that again: THEY HID IMPORTANT EVIDENCE FROM LE FOR YEARS.

    Why would they do that if they were innocent?

    And who actually had the package once it was "found" and where was it during all that time?

    And one more important question I asked myself about this chapter, "The Case of the Mysterious Bloomies": Why didn't they just destroy the package or throw it away with the trash in Atlanta if they were so worried about it they hid it from LE investigators all those years? My guess is whoever "found" it--and I think it was "found" by someone who had a history in LE and who somehow knew how important this evidence was--also knew the laws about destroying evidence in a criminal case. My guess is once he knew it existed, Team Ramsey--including a lot of practicing lawyers and ex-cops--had no choice but to hang onto it with a "promise" they'd turn it over to LE. [:wink: In the next century....]

    How does any of this make sense? Well, of course they had an excuse: they didn't trust the BPD! THEY TRUSTED THE INTRUDER WHO MURDERED THEIR CHILD MORE THAN THEY TRUSTED THE BPD! So they waited until they had someone they trusted in charge of the investigation!

    Which brings up another question: how did they know THAT would ever happen? What if Lacy hadn't been elected? Or hadn't gone full out Team Ramsey for some reason? Seems like they were mighty sure of the future of the case investigation, didn't it? Is there any LE agency in the country more corrupt that Boulder's? Probably, but please don't tell me about it.

    [Hello. How can anyone who has followed the twists and turns of this case so long NOT be a conspiracy theorist? I'm ready for my meds. :hills:]

    So what happened to that package of Bloomies? Since the chain of custody would have been a huge issue after being in the Ramsey camp for so long, we have no idea if it was indeed the original package: you could buy packages just like it at Bloomingdale's for years after the murder, which is how forum member Jayelles got those she used in her demonstration.

    Still, as is pointed out...there had to be fingerprints on that clear plastic. How about DNA TESTING on the remaining six pairs? Oh, the possibilities! That old intruder might have left so much evidence there!

    Well, if he did, we'll never know. Because I pointedly asked Kolar about this very package on an early appearance on Tricia's show and...he had no idea what I was talking about. Never heard of it.

    Of course Kolar had no ability to look at every page or report of the 40K page case file: who would in one lifetime? If the package was processed, the reports are buried somewhere in that file.

    Unless they were destroyed...or never even produced.

    Here's the thing; I'M NOT MAKING ANY OF THIS UP!

    It's documented FACT...except for the FICTION, created by Team Ramsey.

    Anyhow...what were we talking about? :whoosh:
     
  18. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,972
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    48
    thank you KK :cheers:
     
  19. Chelly

    Chelly Remember Teghan Skiba

    Messages:
    11,760
    Likes Received:
    7,203
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Because I think there is a good chance the head-bash and Part One of staging began in JB's bedroom (after pineapple snack), I think the size 12's were in JB's panty drawer. JB was willful enough to demand that PR let her have them after first seeing the fresh pkg of big-girl panties. JMO.
     
  20. Venom

    Venom New Member

    Messages:
    1,304
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Or maybe the package was taken out when PR's sister was gathering some of their things? Or even "hidden" while JR was gone for an hour or so, checking the mail wasn't he? Stashed in BR's stuff when he went to the W's? Put in the sewer grate late that night?
    Ok, I know I'm reaching on why they weren't found right away. :blushing:
     

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice