James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation

[2 percent]

They would have been able to find the body ASAP.. Less evidence lost, Finding the body earlier.. I think it is really obvious..

And what is the advantage of finding her earlier, exactly?
What evidence do you think was lost in that 5-6 hour timeframe?

I'm afraid it isn't obvious to me what evidence on or around her body you think has expired because she wasn't found earlier. That is why I'm asking for clarification.

 

[tezi]

Well this one we will just disagree on.. They had a house that a child was taken from.. NO ONE should have been allowed in that house. IT was a crime scene from the moment the Police arrived.. IT should have all been preserved. JR should never have been sent to search without an Officer..
BPD messed this one up badly.

As I recall the Ramsey Posse of Friends arrived shortly after Officer French. I do agree though, everyone except the Ramseys themselves should have been shuttled out of the house.

And since Detective Arndt was the only officer at the house when she sent JR on his little "mission," she alone is responsible for that. Not the entire BPD.

JMO

 

[Venom]

“EXONERATED” FORMER DEATH ROW INMATE RECONVICTED
So-called “Innocence List” Conclusively Debunked

Former death row inmate Timothy Hennis, listed as “exonerated” on the “innocence list” maintained by the Death Penalty Information Center, was found guilty of three counts of premeditated murder by a military jury today.

“This is the smoking gun that proves what we have been saying for years,” said Kent Scheidegger, Legal Director of the Criminal Justice Legal Foundation. “The so-called innocence list is nothing of the sort.”

For years, the “innocence list” has been cited by opponents of the death penalty as a list of people once sentenced to death who were actually innocent of the crimes. Death penalty supporters have long maintained that this claim is false. Proof of actual innocence is not required to get on the list. In 2006, Justice Antonin Scalia challenged the list in an opinion in Kansas v. Marsh.

In Hennis’s case, his first conviction was reversed on appeal, and on retrial in 1989 the jury decided that the evidence available at that time was not sufficient to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. However, there is a wide difference between doubt of guilt and proof of innocence.

I found this interesting article. http://deathpenaltyblog.dallasnews.com/2010/04/why-exonerated-needs-to-be-use.html/

 

[DeeDee249]

And what is the advantage of finding her earlier, exactly?
What evidence do you think was lost in that 5-6 hour timeframe?

I'm afraid it isn't obvious to me what evidence on or around her body you think has expired because she wasn't found earlier. That is why I'm asking for clarification.

One thing that would have been different had Officer French found her body is that it would have been an uncontaminated crime scene. JR would not have had the opportunity to "readjust" the body (if indeed he had done so) or touch her at all, touch the tape, etc. And Patsy would not have been able to throw herself on the body, and the body itself would have remained in situ in the wine cellar until brought to the morgue. There would be no way that anyone could explain the parents' fibers from clothing worn THAT DAY being on the body, blanket, paint tote, tape. The ONLY explanation would be that the parents had handled the body BEFORE police found her- and that makes them involved in the crime.
It is not so much that evidence was "lost" or "expired". It is more a matter of evidence that was no longer uncontaminated by someone who would have no innocent reason to have their fibers present.

 

[Agatha_C]

Sure it has.. Tim Mathers for one..

It showed it was not him..

"The new hearings uncovered that DNA found on Hettrick's body did not match that of Masters' DNA. The hearings also revealed there had been substantial evidence not turned over to Masters' defense team during the previous trials. As a result, Masters conviction was overturned and prosecutors dropped the murder charge against him.
"

http://www.dnaforensics.com/touchdna.aspx

TDNA alone did not clear Masters.....

Meloy later said he was “appalled and stunned” at some of the evidence withheld from him as he developed his profile of Hettrick's killer and claimed he was intentionally manipulated into targeting Masters. He said that he knew nothing about Hammond and that, had he known, Hammond would have been the leading suspect.

After Masters’ release, the two prosecutors who presented the original case against him, Terry Gilmore and Jolene Blair, were censured by the Colorado Supreme Court for failing to turn over evidence to Masters’ defense. The lead detective in the case, Jim Broderick, was indicted for perjury for allegedly lying about evidence to the grand jury to obtain Masters’ indictment. In December 2011, a judge dismissed three of nine counts and the case was put on hold while the prosecution appealed the judge’s order. http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=3412

Yep, lots more then TDNA.. It did help however so I'll give you that....

 

[Agatha_C]

Well this one we will just disagree on.. They had a house that a child was taken from.. NO ONE should have been allowed in that house. IT was a crime scene from the moment the Police arrived.. IT should have all been preserved. JR should never have been sent to search without an Officer..
BPD messed this one up badly.

And where is the R's culpability in all of this? They had a ransom note that read dont call anyone or your daughter will lose her head. What did they do? They called everyone that they knew and their brothers to come over.... Doesnt that make you stop and wonder why? Why would they do that????? I do agree, shame on LE for letting them trample the crime scene. Seems to me, that was the whole point of the R's actions..... Chaos, thats why...

Not excusing LE at all, just saying that there is a lot of blame to spread around and the R's made sure of that....

cha·os
ˈkāˌäs/Submit
noun
1.
complete disorder and confusion.

synonyms: disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom; etc.....

 

[gramcracker]

LE wasn't incompetent. it wasn't allowed to BE competent

I find very little fault with the boots on the ground, although Detective Arndt did make two bad calls. my beef is with the superior officers: Detective Commander Eller and Police Chief Koby. Koby considered DA Hunter a close friend and sometimes Eller/Koby/Hunter teamed up, but two of them would also pair up and turn on the third one. they were like a trio of mean girls with constantly shifting alliances

Mason was second in command over the detectives and initially was in charge because Eller was on vacation, but then Eller stepped up and assumed command. Eller's first bad call was ordering that care be taken not to offend the Rs, that they were to be handled gently. the detectives would have interrogated them separately in the first few hours if they had been allowed to do so

a Boulder search dog was on standby at 7:30 that morning but Eller didn't order the dog into service. that was his second bad call. by noon Mason and Eller were still squabbling about whether to use the local dog (Eller) or send for one from Aurora (Mason)

Eller's third bad call was not assigning continual backup in the house for Arndt. because of the holiday there was a skeleton crew available across the department (detectives and patrol officers). many of those with seniority (and experience) and accrued leave had taken time off, which they were entitled to do. one detective who had recently attended an FBI kidnapping seminar was on vacation and unavailable (out of town IIRC). Eller and Koby were not at the scene but they were receiving constant updates. Eller was responsible for detective assignments (and which prodecures they followed) but the buck stopped with Koby for overseeing Eller, and overseeing patrol officer assignments. if Eller couldn't find a backup detective for Arndt, Koby should have found a backup patrol officer for her if his patrol sergeant in command couldn't find one

we know that Arndt's two bad calls were sending JR on a survey mission and moving JB's body from the spot where JR deposited her. which shows that the R's psyops were successful because, like water dripping on stone, Arndt's judgment was worn down and diminished. (psychological operations ... to influence emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and behavior of ... groups and individuals)

Eller's fourth bad call that day was when he decided that the house would be turned back over to the Rs after only ninety minutes of evidence gathering. ninety minutes! DDA/chief trial deputy Hofstrom was infuriated, and insisted that the house be examined more thoroughly. then Eller was infuriated because a DA was questioning his decision and authority. Hofstrom went over Eller's head and complained to Koby, who overruled Eller, and evidence was gathered for ten days

talk about your shifting alliances. this is the same DDA who later took a handwriting exemplar from PR in his own home, and stayed out of the room while she was doing it! Master Alliance Shifter Hunter wigged over that, but quickly recovered when he remembered who was buttering his publicity, er, bread. after both Rs lawyered up DDA Hofstrom started brokering an interview deal. he told Arndt they wouldn't answer questions in person but would respond to written questions if they could review all the case material beforehand. when Arndt returned Hofstrom's call at the phone number he had given her, it was the office of defense attorney Mike Bynum! rather than being a bunch of bumblers, the rank and file LEOS were demoralized by how this case was handled. for the DA's bunch it was business as usual. ST said that he made hundreds of arrests in Boulder but went to court only twice in seven years

Hofstrom's 1996 comment to a reporter boggles the mind: "I haven't tried a case this year and don't intend to unless absolutely necessary." I guess it was fortunate for the citizens of Boulder that he was a DA instead of a teacher or a nurse or a firefighter: "I haven't taught any students/provided any medical care/put out a fire this year and don't intend to unless absolutely necessary"

I've always thought what this case and the Casey Anthony case have in common is that both cases, if being submitted as works of fiction, would be rejected by publishers for having poorly written characters and too many holes in the plot to be plausible

 

[madeleine]

what I don't get is....even if it wasn't a murder but a kidnapping...why did they seal off only JB's bedroom?even if LE bought the R's story,that she was taken from her bed...it's a bit naive to assume that it's the only room you could find some evidence in ...

 

[gramcracker]

^ IMO a shining example of not treating them like anyone else, per Cmdr Eller

 

[gramcracker]

the first group of CSIs was at the house in the first couple hours. the (civilian) victim advocates were following after the CSIs using cleaning supplies to remove their print powder, which I very much doubt was SOP at crime scenes. what if later on the CSIs wanted additional prints (or other trace evidence) from those same areas or adjacent areas but they've been wiped down with 409/Simple Green/etc? I'll go out on a limb here and say that PR communicated by word or deed that she didn't appreciate her home looking like that, all black-powdered up. that attitude/aura along with Eller's "don't offend them" instructions IMO contributed to only the BR being closed off. otherwise her house might look like a crime scene! horrors!

not being able to fly out of town was an unexpected blow but I think the R's thought they still had the upper hand. I think they expected to usher LE to the door, say "thanks for everything, we'll be in touch" and invite more friends over

 

[Chrishope]

the first group of CSIs was at the house in the first couple hours. the (civilian) victim advocates were following after the CSIs using cleaning supplies to remove their print powder, which I very much doubt was SOP at crime scenes. what if later on the CSIs wanted additional prints (or other trace evidence) from those same areas or adjacent areas but they've been wiped down with 409/Simple Green/etc? I'll go out on a limb here and say that PR communicated by word or deed that she didn't appreciate her home looking like that, all black-powdered up. that attitude/aura along with Eller's "don't offend them" instructions IMO contributed to only the BR being closed off. otherwise her house might look like a crime scene! horrors!

not being able to fly out of town was an unexpected blow but I think the R's thought they still had the upper hand. I think they expected to usher LE to the door, say "thanks for everything, we'll be in touch" and invite more friends over

Do you mean they expected to usher LE out before the body was "found", or after?

IMO calling 911 is virtually guaranteed to result in the body being found. It really should not have taken 7 hours.

 

[SapphireSteel]

what I don't get is....even if it wasn't a murder but a kidnapping...why did they seal off only JB's bedroom?even if LE bought the R's story,that she was taken from her bed...it's a bit naive to assume that it's the only room you could find some evidence in ...

Different times.

Nothing like this had ever happened before. The general public was a lot less informed than it is now, ditto LE.

NO ONE thought that two white wealthy folks in THAT part of town could possibly do something heinous with their daughter then lie about it.

Nowdays, unfortunately, we know it can and does happen.

:moo:

 

[BOESP]

Either I've forgotten or never ran across the information, but when LE arrived that morning under the pretense of a kidnapping did John or Patsy state whether or not they had already searched the house?

 

[gramcracker]

Do you mean they expected to usher LE out before the body was "found", or after?

IMO calling 911 is virtually guaranteed to result in the body being found. It really should not have taken 7 hours.

after

 

[gramcracker]

Either I've forgotten or never ran across the information, but when LE arrived that morning under the pretense of a kidnapping did John or Patsy state whether or not they had already searched the house?

JR woke up at 5:30 and PR woke up a few minutes later (5:33); JR took a shower while PR got dressed/freshened her makeup

PR found the RN at 5:45 and called 911 at 5:52; Officer French arrived at 5:59. JR told French that he had checked the house and it was still locked as it had been the night before and there was no sign of forced entry or struggle

that's a very small window to have checked the doors/windows and gotten dressed (because he was on his hands and knees wearing only his underwear while reading the RN as PR was calling 911) and to have checked Burke's room as well. 5:52 - 5:59 is seven minutes. even supposing that JR checked the house before reading the RN would frame all of it (including getting dressed and checking Burke's room) as approximately 5:47 - 5:59 (twelve minutes)

FW searched the basement just after 6am

PR told French that she checked JB's room before going downstairs and finding the RN. a little while later French overheard JR telling Detective Arndt that she went downstairs and found the RN and then checked JB's room

from ST's book:

An equally important point, made by John Ramsey, was repeated to three different officers. He told French, Arndt, and later Sergeant Whitson that he had personally checked the doors the previous night and all were secure. When three cops get the same information during separate conversations with the same person, I view it as a consistent story. Months later, in an official interview, Ramsey would deny saying it to any of them.

 

[Linda7NJ]

No way. I don't believe that for a minute. We need only look at the innocence project to see people set free after the case is really examined.

Just because a group of citizens thinks that someone can be brought to trial that is not the same standard for finding them guilty.

Iirc that lawyer Barry scheck from the Innocence Project ain't buying that the TDNA exonerates the Ramsey's. Let me see if I can find it in writing somewhere. Brb

Some Barry Scheck quotes from the video:

"... so, we don't know whether that's saliva or what... whether it was skin cells ah, eh you know there was... it could be DNA from the original manufacture uh of the underwear. I know Dr. Henry Lee went out and bought underwear of the same kind then took it out of a plastic wrapper and took a cutting and extracted DNA and got some profiles from it so I mean it's a little unclear..."

"I've seen a lot of press reports about fingernail scrapings and ah I don't think those are really a factor from what I recall"

...""I've seen a lot of press reports about fingernail scrapings and ah I don't think those are really a factor from what I recall"

"...there was always a belief that the DNA that was found in this case could have come from extraneous sources, that's always been a possibility."

"...it could be DNA from the original manufacture uh of the underwear."

You may not agree with Barry Scheck on these points, but at least his words show that those who do not believe the DNA is related in this case are not ignoring evidence.

This would not be the first time that tertiary DNA was found in a murder case.

Interview with Innocence Project's Barry Scheck, author of "Actual Innocence" about DNA in this case.(During John Mark Karr incident):
http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/multimedia/Mu ...
listed under
"Barry Scheck on JonBenet DNA"

 

[Agatha_C]

Do you mean they expected to usher LE out before the body was "found", or after?

IMO calling 911 is virtually guaranteed to result in the body being found. It really should not have taken 7 hours.

But think about this..... LE wasnt looking for a body. This was a kidnapping, so what would they be looking for? An exit and or entrance, so why would they enter the wine cellar with a door that was locked from the outside? The kidnappers, couldnt have locked that door from the inside...

According to Newsweek thats exactly what officer French said in his police report....

In the police report French filed about the events that morning, he says he didn't open the door to the basement room because he was looking for exits the kidnapper might have used. He noticed the latch was on the wrong side for a door leading out of the house. So he kept moving.
http://classes.colgate.edu/rbowman/core145/jonbenet_newsweek.html

Whom ever locked that door, didnt think about that but then who has other then French?

 

[Agatha_C]

what I don't get is....even if it wasn't a murder but a kidnapping...why did they seal off only JB's bedroom?even if LE bought the R's story,that she was taken from her bed...it's a bit naive to assume that it's the only room you could find some evidence in ...

Madds, thats exactly what the folks at Newsweek thought...

But the police reports also show that officers did little to protect the integrity of the crime scene. Believing the crime was a kidnapping, the cops cordoned off JonBenet's bedroom with yellow and black crime-scene tape to preserve whatever evidence her abductor may have left behind. But strangely, they didn't seal the rest of the house -- also potentially part of the crime scene.http://classes.colgate.edu/rbowman/core145/jonbenet_newsweek.html

 

[redheadedgal]

PR told French that she checked JB's room before going downstairs and finding the RN. a little while later French overheard JR telling Detective Arndt that she went downstairs and found the RN and then checked JB's room

from ST's book:
An equally important point, made by John Ramsey, was repeated to three different officers. He told French, Arndt, and later Sergeant Whitson that he had personally checked the doors the previous night and all were secure. When three cops get the same information during separate conversations with the same person, I view it as a consistent story. Months later, in an official interview, Ramsey would deny saying it to any of them.

that's two lies.

plus,

--JB was asleep when brought home
--BR was not awake during the 911 call

what else?

how can IDI ignore what all this circumstantial evidence alludes to? <<<<< rhetorical question -- no answer required

 

[Agatha_C]

Iirc that lawyer Barry scheck from the Innocence Project ain't buying that the TDNA exonerates the Ramsey's. Let me see if I can find it in writing somewhere. Brb

Some Barry Scheck quotes from the video:

"... so, we don't know whether that's saliva or what... whether it was skin cells ah, eh you know there was... it could be DNA from the original manufacture uh of the underwear. I know Dr. Henry Lee went out and bought underwear of the same kind then took it out of a plastic wrapper and took a cutting and extracted DNA and got some profiles from it so I mean it's a little unclear..."

"I've seen a lot of press reports about fingernail scrapings and ah I don't think those are really a factor from what I recall"

...""I've seen a lot of press reports about fingernail scrapings and ah I don't think those are really a factor from what I recall"

"...there was always a belief that the DNA that was found in this case could have come from extraneous sources, that's always been a possibility."

"...it could be DNA from the original manufacture uh of the underwear."

You may not agree with Barry Scheck on these points, but at least his words show that those who do not believe the DNA is related in this case are not ignoring evidence.

This would not be the first time that tertiary DNA was found in a murder case.

Interview with Innocence Project's Barry Scheck, author of "Actual Innocence" about DNA in this case.(During John Mark Karr incident):
http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/multimedia/Mu ...
listed under
"Barry Scheck on JonBenet DNA"

:goodpost: