JAR's semen on the blanket in a suitcase in the basement

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Guy_in_Georgia, Aug 29, 2006.

  1. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    I know- I was shocked when I saw "fibers found on the duct tape from her hand". I don't think this is accurate. I think it another piece of misinformation that has been out there. I am also curious why ST or Kolar never mentioned anything about the "adult" Dr Seuss book.
    Was the screen shot from PMPT or some other non-official source or was it a screen shot of actual police evidence files?
    What I take as FACT at this point is that
    BR's prints were on the glass, Patsy & BR's prints on the pineapple bowl,
    Duct tape was on her mouth ONLY,
    Patsy's fibers were found in the paint tote, garrote knot and sticky side of the tape from her LIPS,
    JR's dark wool shirt fibers were found in the panty crotch and
    Dark fibers found on her pubic area have never been officially matched to ANYTHING.
    Please correct anything I have stated that may be incorrect.
     
  2. borndem

    borndem Anglophile & registered demwit

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    Just sticking this in here re the Dr. Seuss adult book mentioned earlier in this thread, The Seven Godiva Sisters. Just a little more info.

    The Atlantic article below shows the funny little pics in this book -- very, very innocent (for adults) cartoon pics. Nothing even R rated.

    He did author a couple of other books that were not for children. But the one about the "seven Godiva sisters" is prolly the best known of the least known. It's all in cartoon form and no nude frontals from the waist down. Not offensive at all -- just fun little pictures. From The Atlantic, see link below. This adult book was a flop, and only 2,500 sold even though 10,000 copies were printed -- the 1939 edition, that is; a reprinting was done in 1987 (why?). The 1939's I have found for sale are anywhere from ~$80.00 to over $350.00. I have collected a few good books (1st editions, etc.) and they don't come cheaply. The original Godiva book would have been hard to find and prolly not cheap, but the 1987 books are easier to find and to afford.

    All IMO.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai.../dr-seusss-little-known-book-of-nudes/253891/

    In looking at the pics in the above article, I wonder if the abuser could have introduced it to JB as a Dr. Seuss book -- as she had prolly enjoyed many when she was a bit younger -- and used the Godiva book to explain to her how much fun they could have together. Dunno, just a thought.

    That is, IF this book has relevance at all to this case. There's just so much we don't know & never will. <sigh>
     
  3. Linda7NJ

    Linda7NJ Active Member

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    Agreed!

    But... We've been told countless times about another "mountain" of evidence that has never been leaked and we know nothing about...

    ...so we've been repeatedly told.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

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    The fibers may not be from the duvet. From the Smit deposition:
    BBM

    A [Smit]: <snip> One of the lab examiners from CBI, Colorado Bureau of Investigation, issued reports which I have seen -- or which I had seen indicating the following: Fibers from the sham and duvet were found on the shirt of JonBenet that she was wearing when she was found. But they were on the outside of the shirt. Fibers from that sham and duvet were on the outside of the shirt.
    <snip>
    Q. And is that report by Ms. Murphy of the CBI the type of report, the type of data, the type of information that a homicide investigator would reasonably rely upon in the course of a homicide investigation?
    A. Yes, sir. It would.
    Smit: They were also on the body of JonBenet, in the vaginal area. Duct tape from her mouth on these fibers on it is. And on the hand ligature.
    Now, I also had seen another report from the FBI that said that these fibers were not from the sham and duvet, and I think it is important I put this in the presentation. But the fibers that were found on JonBenet, there was no source for these fibers. In other words, whatever left it there was not found in that house. And great care was taken to take every item from that house which could leave this type of a fiber.
    <snip>
    .

    Assuming the document seen in the screen capture is genuine (why would it be?), there are three Dr Seuss books to consider:
    You're Only Old Once!: A Book for Obsolete Children

    Oh, the Places You'll Go!

    And, of course, The Seven Lady Godivas
    ...

    AK
     
  5. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

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    I&#8217;m familiar with IDI discussion and speculation regarding the suitcase and its possible connection to the crime, but I&#8217;m not sure what RDI are thinking here. Do you think she was on the duvet at some point, or was wrapped in it or something? Then, why is it in the suitcase? Or, do you think the Ramseys tried to put her in the suitcase? If she was on the duvet, than how is it then she ended up with the blanket? Etc?
    Confused.
    ...

    AK
     
  6. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

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    I was under the impression the hand/mouth thing had been addressed in a program with Kolar. I could be wrong. Might be worth asking cynic as I think he may have been the one who mentioned it.

    I may also have made all of that up ;)
     
  7. Mountain_Kat

    Mountain_Kat Heca, firimar!

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    Just to clarify things in my own mind (because I do get alittle turned around from time to time)... this screen shot from Court TV showing the evidence list is a dramatization, correct? If so, has the phrase "adult Dr. Seuss book" ever come from a credible source?
     
  8. Venom

    Venom New Member

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    I don't think she was put in the suitcase, the lividity marks and full rigor prove not. If whoever tried to put her in the suitcase it would have had to have been right after death. And I mean literally within minutes as livor mortis starts about 20 minutes after death. jmo
     
  9. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for pointing this out. I have tried over the years to explain exactly why she wasn't in the suitcase, but it keeps rearing it's head from time to time.
    As to the duvet fibers, from that quote it appears they were talking about the fibers on the duct tape from her MOUTH and LIGATURE from her hand and not duct tape from her HAND as was stated earlier.
    I do not think she was ever put in the suitcase, but it is possible she was lying on that duvet. The only thing that puzzles me about that is why they would have moved her onto the white blanket (first taking it from the dryer) and put the duvet back in the suitcase. The only reason I can think of is that they wanted to make it seem like she had been taken from her bed, wrapped in her own blanket taken from her bed. Of course, police pointed out to Patsy when showing her the crime photos of JB's bed that was impossible- there was no way a blanket was pulled off that bed leaving the foot section perfectly intact. Patsy did vaguely agree.
     
  10. Venom

    Venom New Member

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    IIRC, the white blanket was supposedly in the dryer. It's possible it was never even on her bed that night. The R's might have put her in her blanket to make it seem as though she was taken from her bed and just never realized that the foot section was intact.
     
  11. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

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    Why would they have taken the duvet OUT of the suitcase to begin with? And, of course, why put it back? Or, if it was not in there it begin with, why put it in the suitcase at all?

    These are the sort of bizarre aspects and oddities of the case that I was referring to (on another thread) that vanish when you consider that the Ramseys might not have had anything to do with this. Why would they have taken the duvet OUT of the suitcase to begin with, or put it back, etc? They didn’t.

    But, I think things get even clearer (in this instance) when we consider that the fibers in question possibly did NOT come from the duvet. Smit (deposition): ...[a]report from the FBI that said that these fibers were not from the sham and duvet.

    In fact, I think that these fibers are the very same ones that Kolar describes (P. p. 229) as being “found on four items closely associated with the body of Jonbenet and implements used in her murder.”

    Kolar doesn’t name the areas, but Smit’s fibers were also, as Kolar describes, “found on four items closely associated with the body of Jonbenet and implements used in her murder.”

    Smit names four areas: vaginal area, outside of shirt, duct tape, and hand ligature. There is a conflict between the CBI report and the FBI report. Smit (deposition): ...[a]report from the FBI that said that these fibers were not from the sham and duvet.

    Kolar writes that “Lab technicians thought the fibers similar to a pair of cotton work gloves.” P. 229
    ...

    AK
     
  12. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

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    Fibers on Patsy's jacket:
    Bruce Levin : (Atlanta meeting taped August 29, 2000 9:34am) "We believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, was found on the blanket she was wrapped in, was found on the duct tape that was found on the mouth. I have no evidence from any scientist that suggest that those fibers are from any source other than your red jacket."

    CNN Burden of Proof:
    THOMAS: Well, let me give you an example, and that's an excellent point. As you know, on the adhesive side of the duct tape, which was removed from the victim's mouth, there were four fibers that were later determined to be microscopically and chemically consistent with four fibers from a piece of clothing that Patsy Ramsey was wearing

    August 2000 Patsy Ramsey Atlanta Interview - from a candyrose:
    0200
    3 MR. LEVIN: I think that is
    4 probably fair. Based on the state of the
    5 art scientific testing, we believe the fibers
    6 from her jacket were found in the paint
    7 tray, were found tied into the ligature found
    8 on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket
    9 that she is wrapped in, were found on the
    10 duct tape that is found on the mouth, and
    11 the question is, can she explain to us how
    12 those fibers appeared in those places that
    13 are associated with her daughter's death.
    14 And I understand you are not going to answer
    15 those.


    JR's shirt fibers:
    0202
    8 MR. LEVIN: I understand your
    9 position.
    10 In addition to those questions,
    11 there are some others that I would like you
    12 to think about whether or not we can have
    13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
    14 understand you are advising her not to today,
    15 and those are there are black fibers that,
    16 according to our testing that was conducted,
    17 that match one of the two shirts that was
    18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
    19 Those are located in the
    20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
    21 her crotch area, and I believe those are two
    22 other areas that we have intended to ask
    23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
    24 explaining their presence in those locations.


    The Tape Fibers:
    CellMark laboratories, who conducted the testing on the duct tape, found, red, blue, pink, purple and brown cloth fibers, and animal fur probably beaver.

    Blue Duvet and Sham fibers:
    http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682473/Fiber Evidence#FibersfromShamDuvet
    "A CBI examiner issued a report indicating fibers from the pillow sham and comforter were found on JonBenet's shirt, on her vaginal area, on the duct tape from her hand, on the hand ligature and inside the body bag." This is the lab report referenced in the Carnes opinion: "A lab report indicated that fibers from the sham and duvet were found on the shirt that JonBenet was wearing when she was found in the wine cellar. (SMF P 147; PSMF P 147.)" (Carnes 2003:Note 32, p. 68)

    15 Q. And CBI had at one point come up
    16 with a conclusion that there was a
    17 consistency between fibers found on a blanket
    18 in the suitcase that matched fibers on
    19 JonBenet's body or were consistent with, is
    20 that the right term?
    21 A. I heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth
    22 refer to that but I didn't hear Trujillo ever
    23 offer a report or an explanation concerning
    24 that.
    25 Q. But the FBI disagreed with the


    Steve Thomas Deposition (Atlanta, Georgia) 09/21/01
    25 Q. But the FBI disagreed with the
    247
    1 CBI, didn't they?
    2 A. On what point?
    3 Q. On the question of whether there
    4 were fibers inside materials found in the
    5 suitcase found under the window in the
    6 basement consistent with fibers found on
    7 JonBenet?
    8 A. No, I'm aware of Smit and DeMuth's
    9 position or stating this consistency of these
    10 fibers, but I'm not aware of a disagreement
    11 between the FBI and that finding.

    Brown fibers:
    Lou Smit Deposition (Atlanta, Georgia) Wolf vs Ramsey Civil Action

    I want to ask you whether there were a number of fibers found at the crime scene -- being the house, JonBenet's body, her clothing, the blanket -- a number of fibers that were found that have never been identified or sourced to any item or individual.
    A. Yes. There are many fibers, unexplained fibers, without a source found not only on the body of JonBenet but on the duct tape, on the bindings, also on the broken piece of the paintbrush. There are many, numerous fibers found at the crime scene that have not been explained.

    Q. And does that include brown cotton fibers?

    A. Yes. Brown cotton fibers are found on the broken piece of the paintbrush. Brown cotton fibers are found on the duct tape, on the ligature, and on the body of JonBenet.
     
  13. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeDee,
    The Court TV documentary directed by Lawrence Schiller has some nice stuff in it which I have used in the past, as have other members to supplement the information available from the various published books.

    In his book Perfect Murder Perfect Town some have queried how he was given unique advance access to the crucial facts surrounding the case, i.e. was there a link to the Ramsey's here, was it a PR exercise?

    With that in mind and nothing to confirm the status of the screenshot, i.e. is it an official Boulder Police evidence sheet, or is it a Dramatic Device used by Lawrence Schiller make his documentary more realistic, or worse an attempt to derail any scrutiny regarding the Dr. Seuss book, since the adult one is less suspicious that the child one, you decide?

    That said, I do think the suitcase and its contents played some role in JonBenet's murder, this is why JR claimed he moved the suitcase.


    .
     
  14. Nom de plume

    Nom de plume New Member

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    Another possible reason for the white blanket is that it was "undoing". It was her favorite blanket.
     
  15. Nom de plume

    Nom de plume New Member

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    BBM
    Taken out to lay her on while she was being abused. Put back in to distance JAR from the crime.

    B&IBM
    Saying "they didn't" does not make it fact, simply your opinion.
     
  16. Mama2JML

    Mama2JML New Member

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    Fleet White claimed to move the suitcase.
     
  17. Mama2JML

    Mama2JML New Member

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    ...because JAR's alibi, which investigators really seemed to believe was rock solid, didn't distance him enough?
     
  18. Nom de plume

    Nom de plume New Member

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    It was put back in the suitcase long before JAR had the chance to provide an alibi, or LE had a chance to check out that alibi. Perhaps there was a reason they were worried about his alibi checking out and him being cleared as a suspect. Regardless, I'm sure they didn't want to do anything that would point to him, which leaving it out in plain sight would have done.
     
  19. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

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    Yes, “they didn’t” is not a fact, it is my opinion. I assumed that was clear.

    But, more questions: if they put the duvet back in the suitcase to distance JAR from the crime, than why would they have taken it out to begin with? Since it is the suitcase that supposedly connects JAR, and if they used the duvet, than wouldn’t it be better to not replace it and just use it all the way through from beginning to end? Indeed, why wouldn’t they just use the white blanket from beginning to end? And, get rid of that suitcase. Stick it in a corner or take it upstairs; put it in JAR’s room...
    ...

    AK
     
  20. Meara

    Meara Member

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    You're right, Mama2JML; FW said he moved the suitcase to the position under by window when he was down in the basement. I think UKGuy may be referring to JR's statement that, at an earlier time, the suitcase was in the laundry area on the second floor (and therefore next to JAR's room), and he took it down to the basement.
     

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