Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Guy_in_Georgia, Aug 29, 2006.
This is one of the things I find laughable about IDI. Out of all the suitcases in the world, he just happens to choose one that contains a semen stained blanket and Dr Seuss book?
What are the chances of that....one in a trillion? As Oscar Madison would say, no bookie would handle it....
They were running out of time. They were leaving the state that morning. Besides, they weren't the type to get their hands any dirtier than absolutely necessary. The furthest area to dump things without leaving the house was their own basement.....which is where everything got tossed.
That suitcase is the exact opposite of a red herring.
Girls don't have semen.
INteresting how any time JAR is brought up, the automatic response is that he was "completely cleared", as if this statement somehow whitewashes all the evidence on the scene and the state of his area of the house. He sometimes stayed in the house and his frat house a few blocks away. He may be "cleared" of actually murdering her(and I'd like the FBI to take one last, very close look at that alibi) but that is it.
While I dont think he actually killed her, I always found it interesting that John's first demand after the murder was that they clear JAR in the case. Instead of setting off to clear him, it should've raised a red flag.
An intruder wouldn't know that.......that's the point.
NO he didn't. He lived in Boulder.
So Jonbenet and Burke just happen to place a semen stained blanket and a Dr Seuss book in a suitcase, JOnbenet just happens to get murdered, and this suitcase just happens to wind up in fairly close proximity to her body?
I'd put the odds on that sequence at one in a quadrillion.
I dont have the quote on hand but I think it was the wine cellar that scared her. The fact that they would place her body down there knowing she feared it is beyond macabre.
I agree. The suitcase is one of the key pieces of evidence and shame on LS for turning it into a piece of IDI evidence when the contents of the suitcase are what is relevant, not the distance it sits from a window.
Funny. Why would they take it back up to JAR's room which had clearly been gone over with a fine tooth comb? I am in the group who believes various items down there(suitcase, pics, etc.) were originally in JAR's room and these items were dumped in the basement. Why on earth would they bring key evidence BACK up to his room?
I believe John that he took it down to the basement but don't believe him on where he says it was located. I think it was taken from JAR's room and dumped in the basement. I suppose its possible it was in the laundry area. Maybe they considered washing the blanket but knew they were running out of time?
Agreed. On top of the theory sounding unrealistic, the way that "theory" is written is disturbing. It reads more like someones fantasy than a theory. Ugh.
Its the only thing I hate about bumped threads from years ago. I appreciate those who bump them as they contain some great info but at the same time, I will sometimes see a post in them that reminds me why I left the JBR forums years ago.
I reckon the suitcase is one of those oblique clues: JR said he moved the suitcase down from the 2nd floor to the basement laundry area, and that the suitcase should not be under the window in the train room.
So guess what was found in the basement laundry area: inappropriate photos of JonBenet, looks to me as if stuff was moved from JAR's room down to the basement, and the quick means of transport was the suitcase?
Which indirectly suggests the scene of JonBenet's assault may have been JARs bedroom?
LHP says she cannot remember seeing a broken window down in the basement prior to Christmas, and she should know. So I reckon one of the R's broke the window and placed the suitcase beneath that window, also the window was not latched.
Apparently there was a plaque down in the basement with the lettering SBTC inscribed on it, is that not weird?
IDK could be
-JK points to all the unusual activity on the 2nd floor, the flash light movement and the house lights being off
-There's nothing on the carpet (a clean surface, noteworthy in the R home) of JAR's room to suggest a struggle, but if there was a room sweep....
Trust me UK, I don't need to be convinced most of that night's events took place in JAR's area of the house. Out of all the crime scene photos released in the house, his area shows the most chaos. I'd like to see the five photos of his room they wont release. While I don't have some in depth theory on exactly what happened, I can easily picture Patsy in that room packing(the bed is in complete disarray), something happens, and JOnbenet is attacked in his bedroom. After the attack she is clearly in distress, she is then moved to her own bed until they decide what to do. At some point they start cleaning his room and dumping certain contents down in that hell hole.
If the suitcase was used to transport evidence down to the basement(certainly possible), why leave the book and blanket inside but toss the photos? Obviously time is of the essence but that is a pretty big mistake to make. They had no idea LS would save the day and get people to believe the suitcase is IDI and nothing else about it relevant.
I'd also like to know if that second cigar box originated from his room. John copped to the first one, distanced himself from the second. I'd also wager it doesn't contain cigars but instead more photos.
Did they vacuum JAR's room for evidence, specifically under his bed? While I always thought it looked like someone looked underneath the bed for something(like pictures or god knows what else), its also possible it was disturbed because Jonbenet went under it and was pulled out from under the bed. I'd love to know if their hairs were found under there although technically that could easily be explained away.
Vague memories of the plaque. Is this the Subic Bay Training Center thing or was that something else?
"From another basement storage closet, a crime scene tech pulled a plaque denoting that John Ramsey had served in the navy at Subic Bay in the Philippines."
Why would a member of the Ramsey family seek to draw attention to a suitcase that contained evidence implicating their involvement? My guess is that whoever placed the suitcase against the wall didn't realize what was in there, nor do I think JBR's DNA being on a blanket means much in and of itself. What I find more interesting is how John initially downplayed the potential evidence of an intruder with his bogus story about breaking into his own house. I think John wasn't confident in the staging job and attempted to ditch it until Lou Smit miraculously ran with it.
Maybe the intention was to dump the suitcase somewhere, and the photos would have been a direct link back so they were removed.
Good point.. Maybe JR wanted to pinpoint the entry and exit point of an imaginery intruder merely to be the basement and thus a suitcase near the window to step on...( oh I forgot... hard Samsonite suitcase as always mentioned by the R) also that's why he concocted the story of a chair behind the train room door imo.
The suitcase by itself means nothing. A semen stained blanket of a college student means nothing. A Dr seuss book means nothing. Its when you combine these items together that part of a story is being told....whether its staging or not.
I disagree that the person who placed it there had no idea of its contents. That specific suitcase did not accidentally appear in the basement and the only way it could be from someone who didn't have a clue about its contents would be an intruder or a family friend who never opened it.
Now the whole John/intruder thing is definitely one of the strangest aspects of this case and one of its layers of complexity. You pointed out the story about the lie concerning the broken window but even more bizarre is how other than a ransom note, they weren't even taking it in an IDI direction at all. JOhn could have so easily just said he forgot to lock the doors/garage that night. Period. He didn't....he went out of his way to say all the doors were locked and everything was kosher on that front. Why? Saying you may have left doors unlocked or even stage one to be open would have been so simple, to the point, and believable yet he didn't do it. Instead, minutes after finding her body he announces that its an "inside job". Like you said, only when LS turned this case into an ever bigger mess than it was by going with IDI and coming up with ridiculous stories to fit IDI did the Ramseys go along with it.
This is actually very revealing. It tells us that the story was being made up from the get go(which helps explain all the bizarre staging and 'undoing') as it went along and continually evolved, even as months and then years passed.
Maybe so but this begs the question......where would they dump it? No one was leaving the house that night....its why the basement was the "catch all". Had they been willing to, half the evidence in the house would have likely been ditched somewhere.
Had this been the case(regarding the suitcase as the step), they would have run with it immediately. No point in delaying it. So many people had been in the basement that morning/afternoon and saw it. LS concocted that horse manure after the fact. It never even occurred to anyone in the house because an intruder using a suitcase as a step when there are multiple chairs down there isn't believable on any level. This outlandish scenario was dreamed up as fantasy long after the fact.
That's one strange phantom intruder and suitcase. He uses the suitcase as a step, it levitates to a different position after he leaves, and Fleet white just happens to move it to the same spot it was initially used and the "genius" LS figures it all out and the Ramseys are innocent.
How any of this hogwash was ever swallowed in the first place is mindblowingly absurd. The fact that the Ramseys took the LS ball and ran with it shows desperation. IMO they knew that the bizarre layers of staging made them look guilty as sin and were shocked that LS was able to pull a magical rabbit out of his hat and save their asses.
The story of the chair behind the door is just so bizzare.I don't even know how he said it without laughing or how LS could sit there and act like it really happened. This is why experts were needed to interrogate them. The FBI would've tore this story to shreds the moment it comes out of his mouth, he would have then been without a safety net he so desperately needed, and would have been forced to dig himself into a much deeper hole with an even more outlandish story until the whole house of cards comes crumbling down. The case could have been cracked during those interrogations.
Even though I am not an FBI agent or detective, I wish I could've been in that room with them. One strategy I would have used to get John to crack is when it comes time to discuss the basement sequence and how items are magically moving around in photographs, I would have told him Fleet White is being interrogated in another room as we speak....not just to notice his reaction...but to put the fear of God in him. A few minutes later as the interview is continuing, have someone knock on the door really hard, excuse yourself, and wait 5-10 minutes before going back in there. Let John stew in the juices of his own making. When coming back in, I'd have a very serious look on my face and say something along the lines of, "John, we know what was going on down there. Now is the time to tell your side and no more bullchit". He'll do one of three things.....he'll crack, create a brand new story of events, or walk out of the room. Either of those choices is better than what info was obtained by LS. A similar scenario with JAR would've also been great but impossible as Ramsey attorneys would've known it was a lie.
To anyone here who has not read the full transcripts, I beg you to read them even though it is time consuming. Patsy's transcripts have more information and slip ups but JOhn's are an absolute must read.....him and LS are chatting as if they're best friends drinking beer, eating buffalo wings, and watching football when the reality of the situation is they are discussing the brutal murder of a six year old child and one of the people responsible is sitting in that room. It's disgusting.
LS also leads him so much he's basically feeding John answers before he asks questions. Its bordering on being an accessory after the fact. I realize that its not. Its just incompetence.
According to the condition of JARs bathroom at TOD, this is the room in which Patsy colored her hair on Christmas Day. It is in adjoining JARs BR, on JARs bed, that I contend JBR was when resting/playing/watching tv after she complained of not feeling well and stayed indoors for a while from riding her new bike on Dec. 25.
Never seen a murder investigation with so many photos. Thanks to LS we also have some actual CS photo images. Often wondered why AccessGraph*s SW were suppressed. What was found on the computers there? Did Lockheed shut that line of query down?
LS did save the day for the Rs and more than once. LS told JR that his version of the chair being placed at the train room door in the basement did not make any sense. JR backed up and tried again without convincing success, thus, LS told JR how it likely was and the root manifested itself from the seed. More than any other individual, LS changed the course of JonBenet's murder investigation.
IMHO, JR took the blue suitcase to the basement in preparing the R home for the party that week. It was the party when JBR stated she didn't feel pretty, the 911 call was placed and FW went into the wine cellar to get more wine. More wine. Imagine that.
What shoe style was FW wearing the evening of the party and the morning of the discovery? Did his boot/shoe soles leave a shoe print inside the WC? I don't remember.
Even with the blue comforter and thin book inside of the hard, heavy piece of luggage would seem as if it were empty unless one were to actually open it to look inside. IOW, the contents did not add enough weight to the luggage to create a sense that it was anything but empty.
Op: The killer moved the blue suitcase from where JR had deposited it, in the basement in prep for the party, to where LEO photographed it, in this snapshot taken while JBR was still secreted inside the wine cellar on Dec. 26. Opening the wine cellar door that morning would have made all of the difference.
IIRC FW had opened the WC's door that morning and couldn't see JBR as it was dark and he couldn't find the light switch.
One wonders then how he could get the wine from there during the Christmas party ? wasn't it dark then ? Did he have a flashlight? Not that I believe FW killed JBR just thinking loud.
Also the basement lights were reported to be on that morning. I also wonder why the basement light didn't lighten inside the WC
when the door was opened..
^ I've always wondered about that as well, it doesn't seem to make very much sense.
My thoughts were focused on the actions of LEO who actually snapped the photo and attempted yet failed to enter the wine cellar by opening the door. "Hello, Police. There has been a kidnapping."
Right - it's maddening!!!
I wish I could quote this or refer to a more specific source, but IIRC in either Thomas's or Kolar's book the R's didn't keep wine in the WC. They just called it a WC and used it as more storage. Is that right? If it is, then FW didn't get the wine from the WC during the party and therefore would be unfamiliar with that room/area of the house.
PMPT (Schiller):Then Ramsey, with White a few paces behind, turned right into the boiler room. At the rear was a door leading to what the family called the wine cellar, a windowless room with brick walls.
...and:After he (Fleet White) left the train room, he turned right, into the boiler room. At the back of the room, he said, he saw a door to what the Ramseys called the wine cellar. He turned the closed wooden latch and opened the door. The room was pitch-black, he said. He didnt enter, and he saw nothing. When he couldnt find a light switch, he closed the door and went back upstairs. He did not remember whether or not he relatched the door.
IRMI (Steve Thomas):Downstairs I checked the little room where the body was found, again a difficult journey just to get there. Had to know where they were going. Police had started calling it the wine cellar to differentiate it from the overall basement area, although no wine was stored in it. Four concrete walls, no windows, a fluorescent lighting fixture laid sideways on a shelf, with two switches near the outward-opening white door. Cold and claustrophobic.
DOI (John Ramsey):The truth was that Linda could not have missed knowing the room was there. Far from hidden, we called it the wine cellar, although we seldom used it for more than storage. It was originally probably a coal room. Besides, Linda and her husband, Mervin, had taken our Christmas decorations out of that room, including several artificial trees (otg: possible source of green material found in JonBenets hair?), while we were gone during the previous Thanksgiving holiday.
I cant remember where the story originated about White going to the basement to get more wine at the party on the 23[SUP]rd[/SUP], but I think it was started by Jammie (claimed as some of hir inside info). Even if there was an ounce of truth to it, the Ramseys wouldnt have hidden their extra wine for the party in that part of the basement. If it wasnt being kept upstairs (maybe in the butlers pantry), it would have been just at the bottom of the stairs going down to the basement for easy access. White didnt know where the light switch was to the wine cellar. I dont really think he retrieved more wine for the party on the 23[SUP]rd[/SUP].
re "wine cellar"
[FONT="]from the PR 6/98 interview:
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. You know, it wasn't
13 like a full-blown wine cellar, but we kept a couple
14 boxes of wine in there. And I want to say that -- I
15 don't remember whether it was the night of the 23rd,
16 that party or some party we had, I remember somebody
17 saying we are out of red wine. And I said please
18 (inaudible) to or something. But at some time, please
19 go to the basement to get some more red wine, but he
20 would know where that was.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: This guy named Bob Ballis
23 (phonetic) who did some Christmas decorations, he made
24 these things, you know, a year or more before when we
25 had the Christmas open house. He would know about
2 TRIP DEMUTH: My question is: Who had been
3 in that room prior to Christmas of '96, Bob Ballis, was
4 he the Christmas of '95?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Right.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. In the months prior to
7 Christmas of 1996 Fleet would have gone in there?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say Fleet, the
9 cleaning lady and --
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Maybe the husband?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe the husband and maybe
12 the daughter.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: How about yourself?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Me, taking hiding.
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That is the (inaudible).
2 TOM HANEY: 143 is the wine cellar with the
3 door open?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. The screens and it
5 looks like a case of wine, paint cans, a box.
and JR 6/98 interview:
15 LOU SMIT: Okay, we are going to
16 talk a little bit if we can about the wine
17 cellar. Now, did you -- what -- how often would
18 you go into the wine cellar, let's say before
19 the 26th? We touched on this yesterday. But --
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, throughout the
21 year, hardly at all. I mean the only things
22 that were down there that we would get at, I
23 think we had some wine stored in there, just in
24 boxes at one time. I don't know if there was
25 any -- I don't know if there is any left or not.
1 But we would get a case of wine and we would put
2 it down there. Cigars I stuck down there.
3 Um, and of course, you know,
4 Christmas stuff out once a year, put it back.
5 Patsy usually I think certainly that year did it
6 or had it done, so I don't remember ever getting
7 in there to get the Christmas stuff out. That's
8 about it. We rarely went in that room.
otg & cranberry: Thank you!!!
That was exactly what I was remembering from the books. The interviews directly contradict what two authors and even JR said about the WC. But I'm not surprised.
The interviews (I refuse to call them interrogations) were conducted with the benefit of Team Ramsey reviewing the evidence and the questions beforehand. IMO, their responses indicate that they are both distancing themselves from that location of the house and implicating FW, who they of course offered up as a suspect more than once, along with the rest of their friends and virtually anyone else they ever met (despicable...anything to create a diversion and spend precious time and resources elsewhere).
That doesn't have anything to do with the suitcase, of course, but still an interesting tidbit that, IMO, further highlights their guilt. Smh.
[/FONT]Thanks, Cranberry, for the excerpt from Patsy's interview. I didn't remember that she brought it up there about the need for more wine at the party. But now I can't help but wonder what's "inaudible" in the following passage (bbm):[FONT=&]
Is the "inaudible" portion where she first brings up Fleet's name? Because in the next passage, DeMuth says his name like it had already been mentioned:
Another question: Why the hell does DeMuth keep offering suggestions to Patsy -- instead of letting her answer the damn questions on her own?