JBR: did she sleep that night at all

[Toltec]

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing the same white gap shirt she wore to the Whites... ( White's Christmas photos)

FACT: JonBenet had soiled herself Christmas day...(photos of inside out soiled play pants in her bathroom)

FACT: JonBenet ate pineapple hours before her death....(autopsy report)

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing size 12 "Wednesday" panties...(autopsy report)

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing longjohns.

FACT: JonBenet's feet were dirty.

We could argue when JonBenet ate the pineapple...before going to bed or after being awakened by Patsy. But the fact remains that JonBenet did eat pineapple and had a dirty bottom.

Patsy became aware of JonBenet's dirty bottom when she took her to the toilet. It was Patsy who wiped a defiant JonBenet. The ensuing struggle caused Patsy to lose it and it was at that time when she picks up the flashlight and strikes JonBenet.

We could also argue where it occured...the bathroom or the kitchen.

 

[Ames]

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing the same white gap shirt she wore to the Whites... ( White's Christmas photos)

FACT: JonBenet had soiled herself Christmas day...(photos of inside out soiled play pants in her bathroom)

FACT: JonBenet ate pineapple hours before her death....(autopsy report)

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing size 12 "Wednesday" panties...(autopsy report)

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing longjohns.

FACT: JonBenet's feet were dirty.

We could argue when JonBenet ate the pineapple...before going to bed or after being awakened by Patsy. But the fact remains that JonBenet did eat pineapple and had a dirty bottom.

Patsy became aware of JonBenet's dirty bottom when she took her to the toilet. It was Patsy who wiped a defiant JonBenet. The ensuing struggle caused Patsy to lose it and it was at that time when she picks up the flashlight and strikes JonBenet.

We could also argue where it occured...the bathroom or the kitchen.

I agree with this scenario...although, I do not believe that the flashlight had anything to do with it, (a Red Herring...so to speak), even though it had been wiped down. Could have been that one of the Ramsey's walked around the house carrying the flashlight...just in case a neighbor were to see, it fits more with the "intruder" theory. Didn't one of the neighbors say that they saw someone using a flashlight, in the Ramsey home that night? Thats what I have read....anyway...so, the plan worked. Anyway, I think that the argument between JB and Patsy happened in the bathroom, with Patsy losing it and throwing JB against the tub, hitting her head...and knocking her unconscious. Patsy heard JB's skull crack, JB started convulsing and Patsy knew that it was the point of no return. Then the staging began.....

 

[UKGuy]

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing the same white gap shirt she wore to the Whites... ( White's Christmas photos)

FACT: JonBenet had soiled herself Christmas day...(photos of inside out soiled play pants in her bathroom)

FACT: JonBenet ate pineapple hours before her death....(autopsy report)

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing size 12 "Wednesday" panties...(autopsy report)

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing longjohns.

FACT: JonBenet's feet were dirty.

We could argue when JonBenet ate the pineapple...before going to bed or after being awakened by Patsy. But the fact remains that JonBenet did eat pineapple and had a dirty bottom.

Patsy became aware of JonBenet's dirty bottom when she took her to the toilet. It was Patsy who wiped a defiant JonBenet. The ensuing struggle caused Patsy to lose it and it was at that time when she picks up the flashlight and strikes JonBenet.

We could also argue where it occured...the bathroom or the kitchen.

Toltec,

How do you know JonBenet had a dirty bottom?

Also

JonBenet had soiled herself Christmas day...(photos of inside out soiled play pants in her bathroom)

How do you know which day it was, when they were soiled, I forget if its been itemized?


Why should Patsy lose it and attack JonBenet, the evidence suggests the pineapple snack was a peaceful domestic event, probably with Patsy in charge in the kitchen or breakfast bar.

Unless JonBenet was placed on some special diet then Patsy would be expecting JonBenet to have some toilet incident, it was Xmas and the holiday season, children tend to indulge, and sometimes over-eat or drink?

Given all the staging and removal of evidence why should Patsy leave the soiled pants lying on the bathroom floor, and ignore the urine-soaked longjohns. I would expect any traces of a toilet incident to have been removed, so no suspicion could be cast in that direction?


Can you join the dots for me?



.

 

[cami]

I know, JMO, about Thomas and his belief in the toilet rage scene, and I feel compelled to go with his instincts because A. he is a cop and as such would know better than I, and B. he knows this case backwards and forwards and I believe he may know things we've never even heard about.

But I think UKGuy is right about the fact that JonBenet was found with urine-stained clothes indicating that they weren't concerned about her being found in urine-stained clothes, which further indicates that's not necessarily the crux of this murder. Is it possible that JonBenet was left lying there and enough time elapsed between her wetting her clothes and the time she was wrapped in the blanket that it had dried sufficiently and may have not been noticed?

I think the strange lights seen by the neighbor were someone moving about with the flashlight, and I think the flashlight was wiped clean because it was definitely used in this crime. I suspect strongly it was the object that created JonBenet's skull fracture, and I wonder why it was left sitting on the counter. Did it got forgotten, like I think the pineapple got forgotten?

Although I greatly admire ST, I have a bit of a problem with his toilet rage theory as well. Although, in another case that I am more familiar with, toilet rage was the catalyst IMO. I just find it illogical that PR would stage this crime over a bed wetting incident, going so far as to use a paint brush on her own daughter. I too believe the urine soaked clothes would not have been left on her body had it been. I'm not sure what I think of his theory that Patsy was using corporal punishment on JB's privates...way out there.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree with this scenario...although, I do not believe that the flashlight had anything to do with it, (a Red Herring...so to speak), even though it had been wiped down. Could have been that one of the Ramsey's walked around the house carrying the flashlight...just in case a neighbor were to see, it fits more with the "intruder" theory. Didn't one of the neighbors say that they saw someone using a flashlight, in the Ramsey home that night? Thats what I have read....anyway...so, the plan worked. Anyway, I think that the argument between JB and Patsy happened in the bathroom, with Patsy losing it and throwing JB against the tub, hitting her head...and knocking her unconscious. Patsy heard JB's skull crack, JB started convulsing and Patsy knew that it was the point of no return. Then the staging began.....

a neighbor saw 'strange lights' in the kitchen,just after midnight,I think I recall.It's been speculated that it was one of the R's w/ a flashlight.Sounds likely to me.

 

[JMO8778]

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing the same white gap shirt she wore to the Whites... ( White's Christmas photos)

it's my understanding the photo's have never been released(?)
I don't think I've ever read conclusively that she did indeed wear the white shirt to the party.(if it is somewhere,then pardon this).

This has always been a big point of contention with me.(and if I'm wrong,I'm wrong,I'll admit it,no prob. there ).

ST says he 'came to believe' JB wore the red shirt to bed,as PR previously stated. ..that's what she told LE the morning they arrived.
Later the R's changed it to she wore a 'polo type shirt' to bed,without mentioning the color(an obvious omission).
IMO,ST knows exactly which shirt she wore to the party(by talking to the White's and by the photo's),and which one she was put to bed in(if she did make it to bed;he says he thought she did),or at least which one she had on b/f she was supposed to go to bed.
Did he add the 'come to believe' part so the R's wouldn't know for sure what he himself knew,what the evidence shows?That would be a wise thing to do.
But, IMO,since the R's told 2 different stories about what happened that night...(JR even says previously that he read to her bf bed),is it possible they also lied about the shirt??In DOI,JR seems to be trying heavily to account for the red shirt being balled up in the bathroom,by saying JB and PR got into an argument over what to wear to the party.But did they really?It sounds like an excuse to me.
Dr Werner Spitz,in his report,says JB was initially strangled by someone twisting her shirt collar,with the perp's knuckles causing the abrasions found on her neck.(IMO-he would know).

What bothers me is this....IF JB was wearing the white shirt when that happened,(as she likely would have been IF that was the one she wore to the party) ...then the collar of it would be stretched and twisted.
Since we know the WC scene was staged,and JB's underwear was changed to a new pair...why wouldn't the shirt she was wearing be changed as well??? IMO it would have been,so as to hide what originally happened,as the shirt would give that away.
SO,one conclusion I come to is that the R's lied about what shirt JB was wearing..that she wore the red shirt,there was no argument about what to wear,that she was strangled in it after returning home,and that it was changed to the white one after her death,just as her underwear was.
The only other possibility,if she wore the white shirt, is that the red shirt was put on her after returning home..but why would it be? It was late and most likely,her PJ's or her gown would have been put on..seeing as they were right there in her room.(BR was wearing his that morning, as it was said he changed bf going to the White's).PR herself even said they sometimes loaded the kids onto the plane in their PJ's so they could resume sleeping on the trip.

Like I said..I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong! I just don't get why : 1-Dr Spitz would be wrong about what she was strangled with 2- why the R's would feel the need to try to account so heavily for the red shirt being balled up on the counter in the bathroom 3-why just JB's underwear alone would have been changed for the staging(some have said her clothes were changed only beneath her waist,but were they really?) 4-why PR CRIED when she saw the red shirt in the pics(they stopped the interview at that point) 5- why would someone dress her in the red shirt after returning,when it was so close to bedtime and they had to get up early???? she would likely have been put in her pj's or gown.
Dr Spitz says she was strangled with a shirt collar...I don't believe it was the white one,as that would have been changed during the staging.I think it's possible she was wearing the red one upon returning home,and was subsequently strangled in it.

edited to add...one other thought comes to mind...is it possible she wore the red shirt underneath the white one,and when someone went to undress her(after removing the white one)...a struggle ensued from there?
I don't think it's likely she was strangled with a PJ top..those tend to be thinner than regular shirts,and that doesn't explain why the R's were trying so heavily to account for the red shirt,even to the point of saying there was an argument over what to wear..(was that said to account for the collar being stretched??)

 

[lviola]

it's my understanding the photo's have never been released(?)
I don't think I've ever read conclusively that she did indeed wear the white shirt to the party.(if it is somewhere,then pardon this).

This has always been a big point of contention with me.(and if I'm wrong,I'm wrong,I'll admit it,no prob. there ).

ST says he 'came to believe' JB wore the red shirt to bed,as PR previously stated. ..that's what she told LE the morning they arrived.
later the R's changed it to she wore a 'polo type shirt' to bed,without mentioning the color(an obvious omission).
IMO,ST knows exactly which shirt she wore to the party(by talking to the White's and by the photo's),and which one she was put to bed in(if she did make it to bed;he says he thought she did),or at least which one she had on b/f she was supposed to go to bed.
Did he add the 'come to believe' part so the R's wouldn't know for sure what he himself knew,what the evidence shows?That would be a wise thing to do.
But, IMO,since the R's told 2 different stories about what happened that night...(JR even says previously that he read to her bf bed),is it possible they also lied about the shirt??In DOI,JR seems to be trying heavily to account for the red shirt being balled up in the bathroom,by saying JB and PR got into an argument over what to wear to the party.But did they really?It sounds like an excuse to me.
Dr Werner Spitz,in his report,says JB was initially strangled by someone twisting her shirt collar,with the perp's knuckles causing the abrasions found on her neck.(IMO-he would know).

What bothers me is this....IF JB was wearing the white shirt when that happened,(as she likely would have been IF that was the one she wore to the party) ...then the collar of it would be stretched and twisted.
Since we know the WC scene was staged,and JB's underwear was changed to a new pair...why wouldn't the shirt she was wearing be changed as well??? IMO it would have been,so as to hide what originally happened,as the shirt would give that away.
SO,one conclusion I come to is that the R's lied about what shirt JB was wearing..that she wore the red shirt,there was no argument about what to wear,that she was strangled in it after returning home,and that it was changed to the white one after her death,just as her underwear was.
The only other possibility,if she wore the white shirt, is that the red shirt was put on her after returning home..but why would it be? It was late and most likely,her PJ's or her gown would have been put on..seeing as they were right there in her room.(BR was wearing his that morning, as it was said he changed bf going to the White's).PR herself even said they sometimes loaded the kids onto the plane in their PJ's so they could resume sleeping on the trip.

Like I said..I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong! I just don't get why : 1-Dr Spitz would be wrong about what she was strangled with 2- why the R's would feel the need to try to account so heavily for the red shirt being balled up on the counter in the bathroom 3-why just JB's underwear alone would have been changed for the staging(some have said her clothes were changed only beneath her waist,but were they really?) 4-why PR CRIED when she saw the red shirt in the pics(they stopped the interview at that point) 5- why would someone dress her in the red shirt after returning,when it was so close to bedtime and they had to get up early???? she would likely have been put in her pj's or gown.
Dr Spitz says she was strangled with a shirt collar...I don't believe it was the white one,as that would have been changed during the staging.I think it's possible she was wearing the red one upon returning home,and was subsequently strangled in it.

edited to add...one other thought comes to mind...is it possible she wore the red shirt underneath the white one,and when someone went to undress her(after removing the white one)...a struggle ensued from there?

Have the Ramseys ever taken a polygraph? Have they ever been asked too?

 

[JMO8778]

FACT: JonBenet had soiled herself Christmas day...(photos of inside out soiled play pants in her bathroom)

FACT: JonBenet ate pineapple hours before her death....(autopsy report)

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing size 12 "Wednesday" panties...(autopsy report)

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing longjohns.

FACT: JonBenet's feet were dirty.

We could argue when JonBenet ate the pineapple...before going to bed or after being awakened by Patsy. But the fact remains that JonBenet did eat pineapple and had a dirty bottom.

Patsy became aware of JonBenet's dirty bottom when she took her to the toilet. It was Patsy who wiped a defiant JonBenet. The ensuing struggle caused Patsy to lose it and it was at that time when she picks up the flashlight and strikes JonBenet.

We could also argue where it occured...the bathroom or the kitchen.

I won't argue with most of those points.. I also agree,I think she was hit with the flashlight,etc.
I don't rule out the basement either though,since it was said a neighbor heard a scream coming from there.Possibly at least part of the attack occured there??

 

[UKGuy]

it's my understanding the photo's have never been released(?)
I don't think I've ever read conclusively that she did indeed wear the white shirt to the party.(if it is somewhere,then pardon this).

This has always been a big point of contention with me.(and if I'm wrong,I'm wrong,I'll admit it,no prob. there ).

ST says he 'came to believe' JB wore the red shirt to bed,as PR previously stated. ..that's what she told LE the morning they arrived.
Later the R's changed it to she wore a 'polo type shirt' to bed,without mentioning the color(an obvious omission).
IMO,ST knows exactly which shirt she wore to the party(by talking to the White's and by the photo's),and which one she was put to bed in(if she did make it to bed;he says he thought she did),or at least which one she had on b/f she was supposed to go to bed.
Did he add the 'come to believe' part so the R's wouldn't know for sure what he himself knew,what the evidence shows?That would be a wise thing to do.
But, IMO,since the R's told 2 different stories about what happened that night...(JR even says previously that he read to her bf bed),is it possible they also lied about the shirt??In DOI,JR seems to be trying heavily to account for the red shirt being balled up in the bathroom,by saying JB and PR got into an argument over what to wear to the party.But did they really?It sounds like an excuse to me.
Dr Werner Spitz,in his report,says JB was initially strangled by someone twisting her shirt collar,with the perp's knuckles causing the abrasions found on her neck.(IMO-he would know).

What bothers me is this....IF JB was wearing the white shirt when that happened,(as she likely would have been IF that was the one she wore to the party) ...then the collar of it would be stretched and twisted.
Since we know the WC scene was staged,and JB's underwear was changed to a new pair...why wouldn't the shirt she was wearing be changed as well??? IMO it would have been,so as to hide what originally happened,as the shirt would give that away.
SO,one conclusion I come to is that the R's lied about what shirt JB was wearing..that she wore the red shirt,there was no argument about what to wear,that she was strangled in it after returning home,and that it was changed to the white one after her death,just as her underwear was.
The only other possibility,if she wore the white shirt, is that the red shirt was put on her after returning home..but why would it be? It was late and most likely,her PJ's or her gown would have been put on..seeing as they were right there in her room.(BR was wearing his that morning, as it was said he changed bf going to the White's).PR herself even said they sometimes loaded the kids onto the plane in their PJ's so they could resume sleeping on the trip.

Like I said..I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong! I just don't get why : 1-Dr Spitz would be wrong about what she was strangled with 2- why the R's would feel the need to try to account so heavily for the red shirt being balled up on the counter in the bathroom 3-why just JB's underwear alone would have been changed for the staging(some have said her clothes were changed only beneath her waist,but were they really?) 4-why PR CRIED when she saw the red shirt in the pics(they stopped the interview at that point) 5- why would someone dress her in the red shirt after returning,when it was so close to bedtime and they had to get up early???? she would likely have been put in her pj's or gown.
Dr Spitz says she was strangled with a shirt collar...I don't believe it was the white one,as that would have been changed during the staging.I think it's possible she was wearing the red one upon returning home,and was subsequently strangled in it.

edited to add...one other thought comes to mind...is it possible she wore the red shirt underneath the white one,and when someone went to undress her(after removing the white one)...a struggle ensued from there?
I don't think it's likely she was strangled with a PJ top..those tend to be thinner than regular shirts,and that doesn't explain why the R's were trying so heavily to account for the red shirt,even to the point of saying there was an argument over what to wear..(was that said to account for the collar being stretched??)

JMO8778,

it's my understanding the photo's have never been released(?)

Correct.

I don't think I've ever read conclusively that she did indeed wear the white shirt to the party.(if it is somewhere,then pardon this).

Steve Thomas knows what JonBenet wore to the White's party, he studied all the pictures and noticed Patsy wearing the same clothes as she was wearing on the day JonBenet's corpse was discovered.

The reason its not confirmed is that he wanted the Ramsey's to describe what she was wearing when placed to bed, and initially Patsy stated it was a Red Turtleneck later this was revised to become long underwear and a polo shirt e.g. no color! Later Patsy stated JonBenet was placed sleeping to bed, and that she changed her black velvet pants for white longjohns but the white shirt with the sequin star stayed on chapter 18 ITRMI Steve Thomas.

So if it stayed on then JonBenet must have been wearing it to the White's, since Steve Thomas had already scanned the party pictures he knew what JonBenet was wearing. And if it had not been the White Top not only would he have questioned Patsy further on this to lock her into a color, also Fleet and Priscilla White and any of the guests to the party would know what color of shirt she wore.

That Steve Thomas came to believe that she wore the red turtleneck to bed must be personal to him, since the Ramsey's along with the White's and their guests know what JonBenet wore to the party, so Steve White gains nothing by appearing obtuse. I guess he is attempting to factor the Red Turtleneck into the equation?

What bothers me is this....IF JB was wearing the white shirt when that happened,(as she likely would have been IF that was the one she wore to the party) ...then the collar of it would be stretched and twisted.
Since we know the WC scene was staged,and JB's underwear was changed to a new pair...why wouldn't the shirt she was wearing be changed as well??? IMO it would have been,so as to hide what originally happened,as the shirt would give that away.

How about if the Red Turtleneck was placed on her to hide her neck injuries, but was later removed and replaced with garrote once it was decided that to be found lying dead in her own bed, wearing not only a change of clothing e.g. Red Turtleneck, but to have obvious strangulation markings may make the Ramsey's immediate suspects, so the garrote was dreamt up and she was redressed in her white top?

As you suggest there are pijamas available for bed, rather than a Red Turtleneck, or even a White Gap Top, since the barbie gown was found next to her body this suggests that she was intended to be redressed in that and have the White Gap Top removed?

It is possible that the Red Turtleneck played a part in her strangulation, but then we have to explain away why she is wearing it, whereas we can infer there was a prior staging, so why should the Red Turtleneck not have played a part in this, also Patsy's insistance on offering an explanation for the Red Turtleneck being where it was found, suggests she needs to account for it?


.

 

[Jayelles]

The colour of her top certainly seemed to be significant since Patsy was asked about it several times. In her first interview, they kept coming back to it.

[font='Courier New', monospace]ST: And remind me, what shirt did she go to bed in? Was that the same shirt that she wore to the Whites that night?[/font]

[font='Courier New', monospace]PR: Yes.[/font]

[font='Courier New', monospace]ST: The red, uh . . .[/font]

[font='Courier New', monospace]PR: no it was white.

[/font]
[font='Courier New', monospace][/font]
[font='Courier New', monospace]http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/font]
[font='Courier New', monospace][/font]

 

[UKGuy]

The colour of her top certainly seemed to be significant since Patsy was asked about it several times. In her first interview, they kept coming back to it.

[/font]
[font='Courier New', monospace][/font]
[font='Courier New', monospace]http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/font]
[font='Courier New', monospace][/font]

Jayelles,

With Patsy refusing to repeat the Red Turtleneck version!




.

 

[Solace]

Jayelles,

With Patsy refusing to repeat the Red Turtleneck version!




.

I broke down and got Death of Innocence because I wanted to see just what they had to say. So if you read that a woman had a stroke and died while reading the Ramsey's version of events in Death Of Innocence, you'll know it was me. This is not going to be easy reading this. It was not easy watching John on LKL, so this will be even harder.

 

[Toltec]

Steve Thomas was interviewed by Crime News website...anyone remember the name?

I participated in the Crime News interview where Steve Thomas was asked if JonBenet wore the White Gap shirt to the Whites.... and Steve replied with a yes.

JonBenet did soil herself Christmas day as evidenced by the soiled pants on her bathroom floor. She got undressed in her bathroom, removing her pants like some kids do...with her feet, hence the inside-out pants.

Let's say that Patsy did not see JonBenet undress...what's a six-year-old to do? Keep her soiled panties on and put on her black velvet pants....

Let's say Patsy saw the soiled panties JonBenet was wearing. She wipes JonBenet down...then places humongous panties on her???? Don't think so.

My belief is that Patsy was not aware JonBenet had soiled herself until she took her to the toilet around midnight. It was then that JonBenet was wiped down.

What makes me believe that it was Patsy is the way in which JonBenet was wiped down. Her labia was wiped down also....and there is no way, no how a MALE would think to do that.

 

[JMO8778]

The colour of her top certainly seemed to be significant since Patsy was asked about it several times. In her first interview, they kept coming back to it.

[/font]

[font='Courier New', monospace]http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/font]

(I'll have to get back here later) but to me, it sounds like ST was trying to lock her into the red shirt.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,


Correct.


Steve Thomas knows what JonBenet wore to the White's party, he studied all the pictures and noticed Patsy wearing the same clothes as she was wearing on the day JonBenet's corpse was discovered.

I'm sure,although he didn't mention the pics in the book,I don't think,only that he found out about what PR was wearing from someone else in LE that was there that morning.
The fact that he overlooks mention of the pics makes me think he doesn't want the R's,(or the public?) to know for sure what they show.(since they had already let PR know they knew she had on the same clothes from the previous night?).

That Steve Thomas came to believe that she wore the red turtleneck to bed must be personal to him, since the Ramsey's along with the White's and their guests know what JonBenet wore to the party, so Steve White gains nothing by appearing obtuse. I guess he is attempting to factor the Red Turtleneck into the equation?

IMO...I think JB was strangled with the red shirt.I think that's why PR got so upset when she saw it in the photo.Would she have gotten that upset if it was used just for staging..? I don't know...but I don't think so..mother's instinct here I guess you could say..
ST doesn't directly come out and say this..I think he's holding something back,for good reason.He only says he believes some kind of confrontation occured in the bathroom, that he thinks JB wore the red shirt to bed,as PR originally said,and that it was stripped off when it got wet. ...soooo,the shirt would have been examined for urine,as well as for anything else..like being stretched or twisted,I'm sure.
I believe he's trying to say,without actually saying it ...that PR strangled JB with the red shirt..as she was attempting to take it off... (on purpose though,out of frustration,and not by accident).
Dr Spitz says she was manually strangled by a shirt collar...so unless there's a shirt not talked about ...it couldn't be the white one.(I hope you see what I'm getting at..not sure I'm being clear enough(?) I'm confusing myself somewhat,lol).
My other thought is..were there any other shirts removed in the lists of items taken from the house by LE? ..or possibly PP took something in her raid of the house?? or it was sneaked out,just like the notepad pages were??

How about if the Red Turtleneck was placed on her to hide her neck injuries, but was later removed and replaced with garrote once it was decided that to be found lying dead in her own bed, wearing not only a change of clothing e.g. Red Turtleneck, but to have obvious strangulation markings may make the Ramsey's immediate suspects, so the garrote was dreamt up and she was redressed in her white top?

could be...but then what was used to strangle her?I think the DR would have been able to tell if it was done just by hand or not.

As you suggest there are pijamas available for bed, rather than a Red Turtleneck, or even a White Gap Top, since the barbie gown was found next to her body this suggests that she was intended to be redressed in that and have the White Gap Top removed?

possibly,yes,could be.

It is possible that the Red Turtleneck played a part in her strangulation, but then we have to explain away why she is wearing it, whereas we can infer there was a prior staging, so why should the Red Turtleneck not have played a part in this, also Patsy's insistance on offering an explanation for the Red Turtleneck being where it was found, suggests she needs to account for it?

in that case,a very stretched out,twisted shirt would have been put back on her...likely wet w/ urine at that. ..possible,but likely?
I think she was trying to account for it,and for the fact it was stretched and twisted..by saying she and JB got into an argument over it.
I'm not saying youre wrong,I'm not calling ST a liar...it's just that something seems to be missing here...perhaps that's partly why the toilet scenerio doesn't seem to add up all the way???
I still don't discount toilet rage,since he had access to all the evidence..but I can't discount sexual rage either.Weren't JR's shirt fibers matched after ST's book was written? Like DOI,I think this book holds some unspoken clues,due to ST not telling what all evidence there is,with good reason.

One other thought comes to mind ...PR was wearing the same clothes she had on at the party...she called the White's over that morning,most likely knowing LE would find the body while they were there...soo if JB is wearing the same clothes,jewelry(minus the pants),and PR is wearing the same clothes as well...did PR not stop long enough to think how that would appear to the White's? If I went to a friend's house and their child was missing,then later found dead in the same general clothes they'd worn to my party and left in 9-10 hrs earlier...and the mom was also in the same clothes and things she'd worn as well...I'm sure I'd be suspicious ! Did that not likely occur to PR?

 

[Ames]

it's my understanding the photo's have never been released(?)
I don't think I've ever read conclusively that she did indeed wear the white shirt to the party.(if it is somewhere,then pardon this).

This has always been a big point of contention with me.(and if I'm wrong,I'm wrong,I'll admit it,no prob. there ).

ST says he 'came to believe' JB wore the red shirt to bed,as PR previously stated. ..that's what she told LE the morning they arrived.
Later the R's changed it to she wore a 'polo type shirt' to bed,without mentioning the color(an obvious omission).
IMO,ST knows exactly which shirt she wore to the party(by talking to the White's and by the photo's),and which one she was put to bed in(if she did make it to bed;he says he thought she did),or at least which one she had on b/f she was supposed to go to bed.
Did he add the 'come to believe' part so the R's wouldn't know for sure what he himself knew,what the evidence shows?That would be a wise thing to do.
But, IMO,since the R's told 2 different stories about what happened that night...(JR even says previously that he read to her bf bed),is it possible they also lied about the shirt??In DOI,JR seems to be trying heavily to account for the red shirt being balled up in the bathroom,by saying JB and PR got into an argument over what to wear to the party.But did they really?It sounds like an excuse to me.
Dr Werner Spitz,in his report,says JB was initially strangled by someone twisting her shirt collar,with the perp's knuckles causing the abrasions found on her neck.(IMO-he would know).

What bothers me is this....IF JB was wearing the white shirt when that happened,(as she likely would have been IF that was the one she wore to the party) ...then the collar of it would be stretched and twisted.
Since we know the WC scene was staged,and JB's underwear was changed to a new pair...why wouldn't the shirt she was wearing be changed as well??? IMO it would have been,so as to hide what originally happened,as the shirt would give that away.
SO,one conclusion I come to is that the R's lied about what shirt JB was wearing..that she wore the red shirt,there was no argument about what to wear,that she was strangled in it after returning home,and that it was changed to the white one after her death,just as her underwear was.
The only other possibility,if she wore the white shirt, is that the red shirt was put on her after returning home..but why would it be? It was late and most likely,her PJ's or her gown would have been put on..seeing as they were right there in her room.(BR was wearing his that morning, as it was said he changed bf going to the White's).PR herself even said they sometimes loaded the kids onto the plane in their PJ's so they could resume sleeping on the trip.

Like I said..I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong! I just don't get why : 1-Dr Spitz would be wrong about what she was strangled with 2- why the R's would feel the need to try to account so heavily for the red shirt being balled up on the counter in the bathroom 3-why just JB's underwear alone would have been changed for the staging(some have said her clothes were changed only beneath her waist,but were they really?) 4-why PR CRIED when she saw the red shirt in the pics(they stopped the interview at that point) 5- why would someone dress her in the red shirt after returning,when it was so close to bedtime and they had to get up early???? she would likely have been put in her pj's or gown.
Dr Spitz says she was strangled with a shirt collar...I don't believe it was the white one,as that would have been changed during the staging.I think it's possible she was wearing the red one upon returning home,and was subsequently strangled in it.

edited to add...one other thought comes to mind...is it possible she wore the red shirt underneath the white one,and when someone went to undress her(after removing the white one)...a struggle ensued from there?
I don't think it's likely she was strangled with a PJ top..those tend to be thinner than regular shirts,and that doesn't explain why the R's were trying so heavily to account for the red shirt,even to the point of saying there was an argument over what to wear..(was that said to account for the collar being stretched??)

WOW...you really may be onto something here!!! And I had never even thought about it being UNDER the white one, before. That would make perfect sense. IF Jonbenet was asleep when she got home, and was wearing the red (wasn't it a turtleneck?) shirt, under the white one...then maybe to keep JB from getting to hot, she just took off the white one...and left on the red one, because she didn't want to wake JB up. If it was a turtleneck, it would have not only been extremely hard to remove from a sleeping child...BUT also....the strangulation would have been easier with that sort of collar.

 

[Ames]

I won't argue with most of those points.. I also agree,I think she was hit with the flashlight,etc.
I don't rule out the basement either though,since it was said a neighbor heard a scream coming from there.Possibly at least part of the attack occured there??

Could it be possible that she was hit on the head more than once. Maybe once, with a shove onto the tub, that cracked her skull...and then maybe again, as part of the staging...with the flashlight??

 

[T-Rex]

Is there any chance this whole thing happened not at night, but the next morning? I can't work it out that way myself, but some things fit. Like Patsy having done her makeup.

 

[icedtea4me]

Is there any chance this whole thing happened not at night, but the next morning? I can't work it out that way myself, but some things fit. Like Patsy having done her makeup.

No, as there wouldn't have been enough time to do things, and the body wouldn't have been in full rigor mortis at 1:07 p.m.


-Tea

 

[JMO8778]

Could it be possible that she was hit on the head more than once. Maybe once, with a shove onto the tub, that cracked her skull...and then maybe again, as part of the staging...with the flashlight??

sure,I think Dr Spitz said the skull fracture could have been done to ensure death,or as part of the staging.