JBR Panties

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by FY1234, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. FY1234

    FY1234 Member

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    JBR was found in size 12 Wednesday underwear, did LE find a pair of size 6 Wednesday underwear?
    It is possible they did not exist or they were hidden and never found but the Ramseys would be taking a huge risk counting on them not being found.
    I know Patsy's sister could have possibly removed them among other things that day LE let her go into the house and take things but the Ramseys could not know ahead of time that they would get so lucky.
     


  2. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    FY1234,
    BPD removed JonBenet's underwear from the Ramsey house. Its itemized in the search affidivits, although they have never detailed what the size, brand or day of the week were.

    I reckon there is six pairs of Bloomingdales size-6 underwear included in the underwear taken from the house, and that a Bloomingdale size-6 Wednesday Day Of The Week pair is missing, this Bloomingdale set would have been purchased by Patsy in December whilst visiting New York.

    The remaining size-12's, also purchased at Bloomingdales, were missing until they turned up, allegedly in a packing crate, right !

    .
     
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  3. CircuitGuy

    CircuitGuy Active Member

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    I don't understand why the underwear matters so much. My thought is she was wearing the wrong underwear for some random reason unrelated to her murder or her killer re-dressed her to dispose of evidence and didn't realize how over-sized they were. In either case, I don't see how over-sized underwear is an important clue.

    I can't be sure this clue doesn't matter, but I suspect most clues in a murder turn out to be random and unrelated once the case is completely solved.
     
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  4. FY1234

    FY1234 Member

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    It matters because it is highly unlikely she was wearing the size 12 to the White's dinner. Which means she ended up in different underwear. The Ramseys claim she was asleep so unless she woke up in the middle of the night to change herself the killer or stager changed her into the size 12. An intruder would not have bothered to put the size 12 on her so that leaves one of the Ramseys.
     
  5. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    CircuitGuy,
    The wine-cellar is a crime-scene so everything therein matters.

    In her August 28, 2000 BPD interview, Patsy said that she had purchased the size-12 underwear for her niece, Jenny Davis who was about 11-12 years old.

    Patsy Interview, 2000 Atlanta, Excerpt

    January 30, 1997 Search Warrant, excerpt
    So the size-12's matter.

    Patsy is on record saying she never noticed if JonBenet was wearing underwear when she redressed her in the longjohns !

    Consider if JonBenet has been staged, e.g. who put the size-12's and longjohns on her, who wiped her down, as noted by the Coroner above.

    Why is JonBenet wearing a White Gap top and have her hair dressed in ponytails, did she wear her hair like this to the White's party, along with underwear meant for a girl twice her age?

    So the size-12's matter.

    .
     
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  6. MURDERER_SERVANT

    MURDERER_SERVANT Active Member

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    Jon Benet's Gap top and Burke's longjohns matter in one way or another imo. If the initial plan was a staged kidnapping as per the RN , why was she not redressed in her nightgown to begin with, rather than left wearing her sequined Christmas outfit which would cast doubt on being kidnapped from her bed ? Was that because parents avoided changing her dressing and was afraif of leaving any evidence while doing that ? Did they put her nightgown near her so as to change it while taking her out of the house after LE left ? So many questions :(
     
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  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    MURDERER_SERVANT,
    Sure lots of questions. The way I read it is JonBenet was likely wearing the nightgown prior to being redressed in the Gap Top?

    The nightgown has JonBenet's blood on it along with touch-dna belonging to Burke.

    Yet JonBenet has been wiped clean, see Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks, so the nightgown must have been in contact with a bleeding JonBenet prior to being dressed in the Gap Top.

    I think there was a prior staging where the nightgown played a role, e.g. taking the place of the pink pajama bottoms JonBenet wore on Christmas Eve, see Patsy's remarks.

    Looks like the Gap Top substitutes for the pink pajama top left on her bed, seen here:
    [​IMG], and the longjohns for the pink pajama bottoms,i.e. breaking any link with the pink pajamas, as the pink top alone would raise questions about the pink bottoms.

    So that leaves the size-12's, which were likely pulled down to wipe JonBenet as a blood stain remained in the underwear but not on JonBenet, e.g.
    BPD January 30, 1997 Search Warrant, Excerpt
    So you could say whomever redressed JonBenet in the Gap Top dressed her in the size-12's, or the size-12's were a remnant from the Pink Nightgown staging phase?

    .
     
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  8. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Victimologist

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    Then why put any underwear back on her at all?

    If the underwear doesn’t matter than why did the redresser choose “Wednesday’s”.
     
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  9. archieil

    archieil On Time Out

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    There are 2 possibilities in my opinion:

    * only Wednesday's were taken from a drawer
    * he was thinking to use Wednesday's before the murder and was not thinking about it when redressing/automatic decision

    in the 2nd situation - pack of panties was brought back to her room post-crime.
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    If Patsy had redressed JonBenet then any pair of size-6 underwear in combination with the long underwear and white gap top would be sufficient.

    The size-12 underwear are a red flag since the size detracts from whatever Wednesday was meant to signal?

    Meaning either parent would be fully aware of this if they dressed JonBenet in the size-12's.
     
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  11. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Victimologist

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    Bingo UK!

    Who would choose the Wednesday’s for a specific reason?
     
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Cottonstar,
    The very person who did not know why JonBenet was wearing Day Of The Week underwear, so this person not only selected a Wednesday pair, they also chose the Bloomingdales! brand.

    Put another way: Why would Patsy go out of her way to ditch the Red Turtleneck in favor of the White Gap Top and fetch the long underwear from JonBenet's bathroom where there is a drawer full of Bloomingdales size-6 underwear, and ignore this underwear just to go for the size-12's and red flag her staging?

    Just in case someone says JonBenet was seen wearing a Wednesday pair at the White's party, then that's fine as Patsy is going to explain this by saying JonBenet must have changed her underwear at some point after being put to bed, e.g. works for size-12's and size-6's.

    Same story with the Red Turleneck, i.e. Patsy is taking a bullet for someone?

    .
     
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  13. questfortrue

    questfortrue Active Member

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    For pictorial reference, Jayelle’s purchased Bloomies with closed plastic security ring still attached. It was such a package that was returned to ML by LW’s office in about 2002, of course minus the one pair of Wednesday Bloomies. The Wednesday Bloomies were located in the center of the package.
    (See attachments below)
     

    Attached Files:

  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    questfortrue,
    That's a neat visualization, very difficult not to conclude that the person who dressed JonBenet in the size-12's selected the Wednesday pair above all the others?

    Of course maybe this is where the penknife makes an entrace, i.e. to cut the plastic loop on the Bloomingdales underwear pack?

    Patently no penknife required for the Partially Opened Gifts, anyone noted that both Patsy and Burke claim they opened them?

    IMO the Wednesday pair have no relevance to anyone outside the Ramsey household. They were not being put on JonBenet just because Patsy thought JonBenet might make a cameo appearance on CBS.

    Someone other than Patsy thought, Hey JonBenet was already wearing a size-6 Wednesday pair of Bloomingdales, so lets make it look as if nothing has happened, in case Patsy looks, lets dress her in these other similar pants.

    Patsy would have known to select any Day Of The Week size-6 underwear for JonBenet and claim this is what JonBenet chose as in an interview with BPD Patsy said she was not present when JonBenet dressed for the White's party.

    The thing is both John and Patsy would have known that the size-12's flashed a red flag simply from a staging perspective, i.e. the long underwear and white gap top seem OK, so why mess it all up with oversized underwear?

    Think back to Coroner Meyer's remarks about JonBenet being wiped down and the location of the bloodstaining not having any matching blood on her body, surely suggests the size-12's were pulled down to cleanup JonBenet, e.g. John and his Israeli fiber deposits?


    Corellated to the latter is also why leave the bloodstained size-12's on JonBenet if your original intention is sound staging, why not fetch another clean pair, any pair, dress JonBenet in these, and put the bloodstained size-12's in the same place the previous worn size-6 pair went?

    All suggesting many hands at work here?

    .
     
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  15. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Victimologist

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    Of course she is. Just like she took the same bullet for pulling back the the wrapping on the gifts in the cellar.

    Also, hiding/getting rid of the bloomies packaging with the rest of the size 12’s, is an act of distancing someone from what occurred that night.
     
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  16. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Victimologist

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    In my opinion the most damning thing about the size 12’s is that they had to disappear. If Patsy had redressed her into the size 12’s then why would she need to hide the rest of the package? In fact, having the rest of the package in JBR drawer would benefit them.
     
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  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Cottonstar,
    I agree. So who made them vanish, was it the same person who removed the size-6 underwear?

    The person who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's must have been aware that Patsy knew full well what underwear JonBenet wore to the White's, remember the Tiff, why else open the size-12 package and then remove the remaining pairs?

    It was not Patsy who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, it could have been JR, but why go for patently oversized underwear if you are attempting to stage a domestic kidnapping, e.g. consider what others have made of the undoing behavioral pattern where someone is trying to normalize JonBenet's appearance, yet the size-12's contradict this aspect?

    I think the remaining size-12's were removed because JonBenet's killer knew they should not be present, say in her bedroom?

    I reckon both parents would have realized no obvious source for the size-12's might have raised eyebrows, so would have placed the remaining pairs in her underwear drawer.

    The question is why did Patsy or John not undress JonBenet , i.e. remove the bloodstained size-12's, wipe her down and redress JonBenet in the Pink Barbie Nightgown?

    Where is the percentage in just wiping JonBenet down, but leaving the bloodstained size-12's on her?

    I'm convinced Patsy is just taking a bullet for another family member.

    .
     
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