JBR, PR and UMI

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by SuperDave, Mar 9, 2010.

  1. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    Hello, everyone.

    Tadpole said something elsewhere that struck me so much, I felt it deserved it's own thread:

    Many of you are probably wondering what "UMI" is. It stands for "undiagnosed mental illness." I think what Tadpole says bears examination. How many times have we heard about someone who was suffering from some form of mental illness and no one ever suspected anything until it was too late? Especially when we all know that money can turn you from "crazy" to "eccentric."
     
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  3. cynic

    cynic Active Member

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    Here is the story and the link:


    Petrosky and her family lived in Roanoke for several years before moving to Bristol in 2004. Her husband was a pharmacist at Brambleton Drug. Her daughter attended Patrick Henry High School. Garrett went to Salem Montessori School.

    She had a reputation as a "supermom," involved in all her children's school activities, working toward a degree at Radford University while managing the clothing and accessory store Present Thyme.

    Then on April 15, 2005, she kept her 6-year-old son home from school. As they watched a cartoon together, she grabbed him by the neck and choked him until he stopped struggling. Then she took him to the bathtub, which she had already filled, and put him under the water.

    She called 911 and said over and over, "I've just gone crazy."

    Had her case gone to trial, a jury would have heard opposing testimony from two psychologists. Defense expert Dewey Cornell had diagnosed Petrosky with a form of bipolar disorder and concluded she had hallucinations in which she heard voices. The prosecution's expert, while conceding Petrosky had a history of mental illness, would have testified she was legally sane when she killed her son.

    "I do not know why I did this," she said in her confession to police, presented in court the day of her plea. "My thoughts are out of control, bad thoughts. I'm just crazy I guess. I should have called someone and asked for help, but I didn't."

    The murder of Petrosky's son stunned many who knew her in Bristol and Roanoke.

    "She was broadly liked," Stancil said. In the weeks following her crime, some young mothers in the community found themselves asking troubling questions, he said: "Gosh, if Andrea could do that, could I do that? Could that kind of darkness be in my life, too?"
    http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/133236
     
  4. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    Did somebody say 'UN-diagnosed'?

    Shall we file that with UN-arrested or UN-tried? How 'bout UN-matched handwriting?
     
  5. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    I've been through it firsthand,and absolutely correct; those around the person don't always realize it is a mental illness they are dealing with.I've always thought Patsy exhibited BPD symptoms,and in this case,those around her (esp. the friends planning the intervention)noticed something wasn't right..as well as the housekeeper who mentioned her awful mood swings,so much so that she thought Patsy had a dual personality(again,a lay person not recognizing the true illness present).
    Also,John had to have noticed her mood swings as well,as evidenced by the Christmas morning pic of her holding JB's arm tightly and appearing she had been crying.
    I also think this was a case of mental illness gone undx'ed.
     
  6. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    Also,I meant to add that ppl with a mental illness as such can sometimes (and usually are) be very manipulative,which is a part of the illness as well.
    Patsy probably,overall,appeared fine at the party that night,as many are able to contain their emotions in front of others they so chose,at least for a short while.It is only when they arrive home that they 'cut loose',so to speak,or literally fall apart sometimes,in front of the ones they feel comfortable with.(Think 'bull in a china shop',and worse).
    Think about it,what other choice does a person with such an illness have? Many are so well adept at being extremely manipulative that no one outside the family,or anyone who doesn't know them well, would ever,ever guess there was anything wrong.

    I do think Patsy lost it at the party on the 23rd though..and SS knew it and covered for her,by answering LE via intercom and not opening the door.I suspect there was a toileting accident then,and Patsy lost it then as well,possibly inflicting the corporal punishment ST talked about in his book.And when someone threatened to call 911 on her (and did...to some extent..possibly John?) she stopped.And I suspect that what JB was crying over on the stairs..I think what she said was paraphrased though...simply into 'I don't feel pretty',in order to not reveal evidence.
     
  7. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I am sure Patsy's mood swings and temper flare-ups were well-known, certainly to her family and close friends. But Patsy was a cancer survivor, and removal of the ovaries puts a woman into instant menopause, regardless of her age (because the ovaries produce estrogen). She went into menopause about 15 years early, and suddenly to boot. JR would have chalked it all up to this.
     
  8. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    That's right. As in "nobody noticed until too late."

    Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. So allow me to elaborate. I happen to think that UMI is a BIG problem in society in general, and gets far too little attention, which is how the little ones end up dead. We as a society OWE it to the potential future victims to learn from past mistakes. The questions here are:

    1) was this an instance of it?

    2) If the problem did exist, was it organic, and if not, could an external force have led to it, and if so, what external force?

    I'm not saying 100% one way or another. I can only go by what I see, both in terms of the things Tadpole mentioned and my own experiences. I'm just spitballing here.

    And let me be even more clear, just to show you that I'm not a hardhearted man, and that not everything is about vengeance: I'm not just thinking about the potential victims, but about the potential perpetrators who will have to live with their actions for the rest of their lives.

    See, this is why I like talking to Roy23 and the sadly-departed voynich so much: even if they don't agree with me, they understand that it's important to contribute constructively.
     
  9. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    I'd say that's likely. I've seen that kind of treatment-induced damage firsthand...TWICE.
     
  10. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    Yes and I think Patsy's sisters knew it,too.That's why they were so quick to come,and why PP was so quick to do the raid on the house.
    Don't get me wrong,I don't think Patsy ever actually confessed to them.I just think they knew her well enough to know that she'd snapped and caused JB's death.

    add to that,the silence from both of Patsy's parents.
     
  11. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    Speaking PURELY for myself, that opens up a whole new angle.
     
  12. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    LOL.

    Here's my contribution:

    UMI is what you fall back on when there's no DMI. You have to admit, DMI would be WAY easier for RDI to work with, right?

    Its got to be frustrating.
     
  13. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    Yeah, that's what I thought.

    I can't wait.

    I'm not "falling back" on anything. I think it's a subject worthy of discussion. You're so quick to assume the very worst motives about everyone, HOTYH. I could just as easily speculate as to why you're avoiding the issue, but I won't.

    That it would. Of course, that's kind of my point: for every ONE we know about, there may be Odin-knows-how many we don't. Try looking at it from that perspective.

    Frustrating? Frustrating isn't the word for it. I PASSED frustrating so long ago I can't even tell you what it looked like when I went by. I could make some very disparaging comments, but I'm not that kind of man, so I'll just say this: I can accept and have accepted that you most likely won't undergo the kind of conversion that I did, but one of your strongest points is that you're completely honest in your feelings, and I respect that. Don't tarnish it by acting like you know what I'm feeling when we both know you couldn't care less what I feel or why I feel it.
     
  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    I understand why not too many people want to tackle this one.
     
  15. Ravyn

    Ravyn New Member

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    Now the mood swings in the interviews from going angry to like a little girl in trouble,I noticed but studing it more to understand...
     
  16. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    I see what we have here is failure to communicate.

    I meant to cover a lot of ground with this thread. But I realize that speaking in generalities isn't getting anywhere. So, perhaps a different tack is needed.

    Let's use a real-life example. In June of 2007, professional wrestling champion Chris Benoit killed his wife Nancy and their 7-y/o son Daniel, then hanged himself. To this day, what caused Benoit to go berserk is the subject of many different theories. But a common thread that runs through all of them is that whatever it was, it had been brewing for sometime.

    To all outward appearances, Benoit was a great guy, a man totally devoted to his son. In an industry marked by outlandish, over-the-top personalities, wild partying and little moral integrity, Benoit was quiet, hardworking, almost selfless. He was unfailingly polite to veterans, even when they treated him like garbage.

    But Benoit had a dark side. Only recently have people come forward to say that, in hindsight, they should have known that Benoit was not healthy upstairs. He was obsessed with wrestling, unable to live without it. He was fixated on following in the footsteps of his childhood idol, "Dynamite Kid" Tom Billington. He was implicated in many incidents of hazing younger wrestlers. He was known to be be cruel to rookies who he felt had violated the etiquette of the business. He became known for his habit of mentally disappearing in the middle of conversations and becoming distant with friends.

    With this in mind, the question becomes: if it was so obvious that Benoit had a screw loose, why was nothing done about it? Why didn't anyone spot the warning signs?

    Well, that's my point here. How many times have we seen it where it should have been obvious that something was terribly wrong with someone, but no one spotted the signals in time? Too many to count.

    Let's compare Benoit to PR, loathe as I am to do that. So let's limit ourselves to specifics. What possibilities could there have been for a sufficient breakdown to reach the kind of level that Tadpole12 refers to.

    **Benoit lived in almost constant pain due to injuries suffered from his profession, most notably severe spinal damage. The effect of unremitting pain can have a severe effect on a healthy person's psyche. He used large amounts of painkillers to compensate, which sped up his physical degeneration.

    Ah, now we come to a crucial area. Having lost both parents to cancer, a disease which eventually claimed PR's life, I am all too aware the damaging effects of that kind of pain can have on the mental and emotional state of an otherwise healthy person. Add to that the effects of the treatments. Both took large amounts of pain medication. PR most likely did too.

    It was suggested early on that the combination of physical pain, emotional torment over an uncertain future and the combination of treatments and medication could have seriously damaged PR's mind. I believe it. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Twice. To all of you out there who are reading this who have never experienced the sheer torment of watching someone die in slow-motion like that, believe me when I say that I pray you never do. You don't ever want to know.

    If these drugs were combined with alcohol, the results would be accelerated.

    Moreover, as I said, Benoit was obsessed with wrestling from an early age, It became his whole life, and contributed to his death. Well, PR seemed to be obsessed with JB's success as a pageant princess. If you ever watch those reality TV pieces about child beauty pageants, you'll often notice some pretty extreme behavior on the part of the parents, for various reasons. But it's generally agreed that PR's level was serious even by those standards. This was far more than "a few Sunday afternoons." We're talking a lot of hours and thousands of dollars here. Singing lessons, dancing lessons, acting lessons, modeling lessons, and those ever-more elaborate costumes, culminating with the famous "peacock showgirl" oufit we all know which shocked even veterans of the child beauty pageant circuit.

    PR herself came from a family of beauty pageant contestants. She and her sisters were groomed for it from a young age by their mother. PR's obsession was seemingly a second-generation fixation.

    I often wonder about Nedra's role in this. She never struck me as a particularly warm, friendly mom. Rather, she seemed the type who would not tolerate anything less than the absolute best from her daughters, and that if you weren't the very best you could be, you were worthless. PR was an extremely driven woman, driven to succeed. She often did, but was it enough? Was it for her own satisfaction, or a plea for Mother's love? Did she see JB as a way for her to make up for her "failures" and finally win the love she may have felt her mother denied her? Is that why she had such a severe emotional stake in JB's success?

    When a person's world is built on pillars, all it takes is the buckling of one support to send that person's world crashing in around them. It's no way to live, and it invites tragedy.

    These are just some factors to consider.

    So, the second part of the question is, if there were warning signs of some mental degeneration, why didn't anyone do anything? Well, any number of reasons, really. I'm sure many people wrote it off as the eccentricities of the nouveau riche. What would be "nuts" in a regular person is "quirky" in someone with vast werewithal. Ego is a big factor. Some people can't admit that they were wrong about people, or that they refused to listen to those nagging instincts. It's a long list. My point is, for a person to seek mental help, there has to be a clear realization that something is not right. But we don't always get that before tragedy strikes.

    As a final note to this, I hate to seem ghoulish, and I will no doubt suffer the wrath of some for even suggesting such a thing, but I think PR should have been autopsied when she died. It would have been interesting to see what an examination of her brain would reveal, if anything.
     
  17. eleven

    eleven New Member

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    "The footage says alot. PR wasn't a centered person, imo..."

    Hmmm...I dare anyone to not be "off" and not "centered" in ANY aspect of their lives after something like this happens. I certainly would be off my rocker and not ever normal, ever again. Completely screwed emotionally and mentally!

    IMO, if a parent had to endure this horrific crime, MY hinky meter would go off if they responded in the opposite fashion by being very centered and spot on...but that's just me.
     
  18. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    I agree,and was Benoit also using steroids? I think I recall some speculation about that.
    It can be difficult in some states to get mental help for another person...even if you know something isn't right.In mine,the person has to be a threat to themselves,a threat to others,or be unable to do perform basic care for themselves (like eat),in order to get them committed.And like you said,sometimes the signs just aren't there until it is too late.
     
  19. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    I think that would be best saved for a different area of WS. I only brought it up here as an illustration.

    That's it, all right.
     
  20. KariKae

    KariKae Member

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    This seems to fit...

    Overview
    Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition in which there is an inflated sense of self-importance and an extreme preoccupation with one's self.

    Symptoms
    A person with narcissistic personality disorder:

    Reacts to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation
    Takes advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals
    Has feelings of self-importance
    Exaggerates achievements and talents
    Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love
    Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
    Requires constant attention and admiration
    Disregards the feelings of others, lacks empathy
    Has obsessive self-interest
    Pursues mainly selfish goals

    If PR did have NPD, JB would have been a prop for Patsy to gain attention and admiration. When JB refused to cooperate, it could have been disasterous for the child, particularly if PR's surgically menopausal hormones drops came into play.
     
  21. Becky319

    Becky319 New Member

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    I love this thread. Thanks Super Dave. I think everyone made valid points. Personally I think Patsy and the sisters were sexually abused by their father and possible his friends, I think they knew their mother knew and didn't do anything about it, which would certainly lead to the start of mental illness. I think John was a cold person that didn't show much love, warmth or attention to her, add on her cancer, treatment and meds and I totally agree she was a bomb waiting to explode. As you can tell by all my "I's" this is just my opinion.
     

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