JB's Pants and Underwear???

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Solace, Aug 15, 2007.

  1. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    I just thought of something and if it has been proven to be wrong, I apologize.

    I recall reading in the NE interviews that Haney shows Patsy a picture of some black pants worn by JB on JB's bathroom floor - there were stepped out of and left that way and they WERE SOILED. So did JB not wear those pants that day, Christmas Day? She came home, stepped out of them and left them there on the floor (after the White's party). Forgive me if I am wrong. I thought she wore those black pants to the White's party with the white shirt (that is what Patsy claims, at least the white shirt is). So to me it appears she was NOT WEARING UNDERWEAR for the pants to be soiled. So maybe there were no underwear to get rid of.

    Any thoughts???/
     
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  3. 4sure

    4sure New Member

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    Just one!
    I think most should step back and take a deep breath!
    Look at the bigger picture!
    Get past the matrix laid out in front of your eyes.
     
  4. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    Those pants, I think, were a pair of black play pants that she had worn earlier that day. They were not the same as the black velvet pants she wore to the White's party. I know PR was questioned about them. That being said, I recall reading that there actually were soiled underpants inside those soiled black pants, although I don't see how the pants would show up in a photo as being soiled if there were underpants inside them. Since none of us have seen the photos, we all have to form a mental image from the description.
    Now, if anyone has the link, that will clear it up. I read it in one of the depositions on ACandyRose.
    If it WAS the same black velvet pants as she wore to the White's - well, that blows the parents' claim that she was asleep in the car and carried up to her bed, where her father claims he took off her shoes and her mother claims she pulled off her pants and put her in the thermal long johns, right out of the water!
     
  5. Albert18

    Albert18 New Member

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    I thought those pants stepped out of and left on the floor were jeans, not black pants?

    Play pants, yes, that is the word I was searching for!
     
  6. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I recall that they were black pants. There was confusion about the "jeans" worn by PR as well as JBR that day. The "jeans" were made of black velvet, not denim, and PR is questioned about this distinction by LE. She calls them black velvet jeans, and then LE asks if they are denim, to which PR clarifies by stating that they they were jeans, but made of black velvet. JBR's were the same thing- jeans (from the Gap) made of black velvet.
     
  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    This has been discussed before, and the clothing on the floor is ambiguously referred to as pants in the interviews, whether they contain underwear, is open to debate.

    In the context of a Toilet Rage scenario, why they were left there is puzzling?


    .
     
  8. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    Something caught my eye as I was reading Patsy's interview. Haney shows Patsy photos of JB's bathroom. He asks Patsy about some pants found on a shelf....? I thought the pants were on the floor?
     
  9. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    I have the interview at home. But I recall Haney showing Patsy a picture of black pants on the bathroom floor and she replies that she sees that they were soiled. I don't recall him asking here when they were put there, etc.
     
  10. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    23 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, go on to

    24 number 17. And what is 17? We have moved --

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Into the bathroom.

    0265

    1 (INAUDIBLE.)

    2 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, that's on the

    3 shelf behind the --

    4 PATSY RAMSEY: On the shelf, yes.

    5 Okay.

    6 (Patsy Ramsey looking down into the

    7 photographs.)

    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like a pair of

    9 pants, little buckle (INAUDIBLE).

    10 THOMAS HANEY: Are they play things

    11 or --

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

    13 THOMAS HANEY: You don't recall

    14 when she last wore them?

    15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    16 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else in 17

    17 then, towels or anything that's --

    18 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE

    19 RESPONSE.)

    20 TRIP DeMUTH: This might be the

    21 drawer open slightly.

    22 THOMAS HANEY: Number 18?

    23 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the red

    24 item in the upper right-hand corner?

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a

    0266

    1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,

    2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites

    3 and she didn't want to wear it.

    4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up

    5 there?

    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A

    7 crown. Oh, God.

    8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.

    9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,

    10 how's that sound? We will come back.

    11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Crying.) (INAUDIBLE

    12 RESPONSE.)


    These pants....on the shelf...play pants with a little buckle...?

    When Patsy is shown a picture of the red turtleneck, she does not concentrate on that but on the crown in the picture. She than bursts into tears.

    She is not crying because she saw a crown in that picture because she had identified crowns a few minutes earlier. She was thinking of that night in JonBenet's bathroom, the pants, the red turtleneck which set her off.
     
  11. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    Thank you Toltec. I think there is more about these pants though because, as I recall, he points out them being soiled.
     
  12. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her

    18 pants.

    19 TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular

    20 pants, when she would have worn those last?

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably

    22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the

    23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.

    24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

    0457

    1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It

    2 appears they are stained.

    3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

    4 TOM HANEY: Is that something that JonBenet

    5 had a problem with?

    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well she, you know, she was at

    7 age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you

    8 know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.

    9 TOM HANEY: Did she have accidents, if you

    10 will, in the course of the day or the night, as opposed

    11 to just bed wetting?

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not usually, no, huh-uh. That

    13 would probably be more from just not wiping real well.

    14 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know how long those

    15 would have been in that position in 378 on the floor in

    16 there?

    17 PATSY RAMSEY: It depends when she wore them

    18 last.

    19 TOM HANEY: Again, do you recall?

    20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

    21 TOM HANEY: On Christmas day were you in that

    22 bathroom at all?

    23 PATSY RAMSEY: Very likely, but I can't say

    24 for sure.

    25 TOM HANEY: Had you been in there that day,

    0458

    1 would you have done something with them?

    2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I got, you know -- that

    3 night I got -- I know I got the long Johns for her out

    4 of that bathroom.

    5 TOM HANEY: Right, out of one of the draws in

    6 there.

    7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

    8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing those on the

    9 floor that night when you got the --

    10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I

    13 don't know.

    14 TOM HANEY: Could have.

    15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.

    16 Don't know for sure.

    17 TOM HANEY: Is it possible that some point

    18 during the night she would have gotten up and put those

    19 on or thrown them down there or changed in some way;

    20 trying to account for those being there.

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine

    22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out

    23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she

    24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.

    25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

    0459

    1 can't remember. It might have been those. I just

    2 can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know,

    3 gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left

    4 them there.

    5 TOM HANEY: When she was out riding her bike,

    6 do you remember, think back, look back at what she was

    7 wearing.

    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't remember. (Inaudible).

    9 Envelope.

    10 TOM HANEY: I don't know. But it is

    11 obviously after these have been picked up and stretched

    12 out for a photograph just -- it could be a

    13 (inaudible). Evidence. And 380.


    Okay....we have pants on a shelf....then we have pants on the bathroom floor?
     
  13. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    It sounds like Patsy is talking about two different pairs of pants: 'those' (black velvet pants) which JonBenet wore to the Whites and 'those' others which were found on the floor inside out, and had traces of soiling in them.
     
  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    rashomon,

    I agree, but are they underwear pants or jean pants?

    If you assume Patsy is being consistent within the context of the interview then I guess the pants on the floor will not be underwear?


    .
     
  15. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    They are neither, they are just simple black fabric kid's pants.
    There were also black velvet jeans, that she wore to the White's with the matching black velvet vest and white star shirt. PR also wore black velvet jeans to the White's.
     
  16. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,

    Where does it say that the pants lying on the bathroom floor were simple black fabric kid's pants?

    Were these kid's black fabric pants underwear, or outerwear, to be less ambiguous?

    Also Patsy invokes memory loss as to what JonBenet was wearing that afternoon despite being record as saying she would be the only one to supervise JonBenet bathing etc

    How do you know this, do the Ramsey's say they removed it on returning from the White's, does the pathologist itemize it anywhere?



    .
     
  17. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    Maybe these black fabric pants found trurned inside out on the floor also had JonBenet's underwear inside them on which traces of soiling could be seen?
     
  18. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    4sure, this was your reply to Solace's #1 post on this thread. Would you elaborate what exactly you mean? TIA.
     
  19. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    Haney asks:

    Do you recall those particular

    20 pants, when she would have worn those last?

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably

    22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the

    23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.

    24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

    0457

    1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It

    2 appears they are stained.



    So THESE ARE STAINED, THE PANTS ARE STAINED. HE IS NOT SAYING THE UNDERWEAR ARE STAINED.

    NOW HERE IS WHERE HE TALKS ABOUT THE FABRIC OF THE PANTS:

    And she had those, she

    24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.

    25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

    1 can't remember. It might have been those.


    so, the pants on the floor are pants alone without underwear, because Haney is being very specific and says they are stained. He is not saying there are underwear inside the pants which appear to be stained. Because if you read the interview later on he mentions underwear but not in relation to these pants.

    So she wore black velvet to the Whites and had these on possibly earlier that day.

    And I do not believe for a minute that Patsy would not know what she had on earlier that day. She would, sorry, she would.




     
  20. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    SEE ABOVE.
     
  21. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    Hi UKGuy,

    I doubt if anyone would buy black underwear for their six-year-old daughter. In fact, I've never seen black underwear/panties for that age group. Also, the officer likely would have said "panties" if he meant girl's underwear.
     

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