JB's Pants and Underwear???

[BOESP]

Whew...I am so glad that Raspberry was not for me....I was just about to start to cry.

I don't think that I will ever budge from the bedwetting theory. John molesting JB while Patsy went out for a bit....(after a long Christmas day...and night...with the White's Party..and then having to get up early the next morning)..is absurd...IMO. John: Hmmmm....you know, Patsy just left, and I have no clue when she will be back, she probably will not be gone for too long, because we have to get up early, and its already past 10:00, but....gee....I think that I will take this opportunity to feed JB some pineapple and then, tuck her into bed....crawl in there with her...and then molest her, seeing as I won't get to do it on our trip, because nosy Patsy will be around". I just do not see that happening, at all. Maybe, one day....someone will step forward, and prove me wrong.

Ames, I keep returning to the evidence, reevaluating everything trying to see where it leads and what it says, examining and questioning my conclusions, blah, blah, blah. I keep coming back to the bet-wetting rage scene too. The head wound fits with a push or shove done in an angry rage. I have even considered that JonBenet was grabbed around the neck and shaken in order to get JB to cooperate, but discounted that after looking closely at the photos and reading the autopsy.

Which reminds me, there is evidence of so-called "shaken baby syndrome" in the autopsy report. I can see that fitting into the scene as well either during the rage action(s) or afterwards while trying to get JonBenet to respond.

In my opinion, the ligature was a staging element or a mercy-killing element. I can't quite decide on that. Maybe that is what Mark Fuhrman meant by saying it wasn't accidental -- maybe he was referring to the ligature strangulation.

It is absurd to think an Intruder did this because nothing fits with the expected actions that would be taken by a pedophile, kidnapper, or someone after John.

I hope I am proven wrong some day. It better be soon because I am getting pretty old.

 

[BOESP]

I suspect modern forensics could analyze the head injury and narrow down the possibilities. Hopefully that will be done some day by a freelancer investigating the case.

A forensic anthropologist could likely make an educated guess. It would make an excellent project for the students at the Body Farm in Knoxville except they want to work with the actual remains and not photos. Boulder could still get an exhumation if they cared. I don't think any of us should hold our breath on that happening.

 

[coloradokares]

Ames, I keep returning to the evidence, reevaluating everything trying to see where it leads and what it says, examining and questioning my conclusions, blah, blah, blah. I keep coming back to the bet-wetting rage scene too. The head wound fits with a push or shove done in an angry rage. I have even considered that JonBenet was grabbed around the neck and shaken in order to get JB to cooperate, but discounted that after looking closely at the photos and reading the autopsy.

Which reminds me, there is evidence of so-called "shaken baby syndrome" in the autopsy report. I can see that fitting into the scene as well either during the rage action(s) or afterwards while trying to get JonBenet to respond.

In my opinion, the ligature was a staging element or a mercy-killing element. I can't quite decide on that. Maybe that is what Mark Fuhrman meant by saying it wasn't accidental -- maybe he was referring to the ligature strangulation.

It is absurd to think an Intruder did this because nothing fits with the expected actions that would be taken by a pedophile, kidnapper, or someone after John.

I hope I am proven wrong some day. It better be soon because I am getting pretty old.

I am not so old as age goes but already had a couple close calls Id like to see justice for Jon Benet. Justice for brutally murdered little girl does not seem like it should be to much to ask for

 

[Albert18]

In my opinion, the ligature was a staging element or a mercy-killing element. I can't quite decide on that. Maybe that is what Mark Fuhrman meant by saying it wasn't accidental -- maybe he was referring to the ligature strangulation.

I have also thought that may be what Mark Furhman was referring to.

I think only Patsy knows the complete story of what happened and what she knew and didn't know. My guess is John was told a very sanitized version.

 

[Albert18]

It better be soon because I am getting pretty old.

Well, since you brought it up, how old?

It's not me, Ames wants to know.

 

[BOESP]

Well, since you brought it up, how old?

It's not me, Ames wants to know.

ROFL! Old enough to know better and young enough to know it won't get any better. :crazy:

 

[coloradokares]

Well, since you brought it up, how old?

It's not me, Ames wants to know.

ROTFLMHO Tell Ames the answer to her question was sent PM:dance:

 

[BOESP]

I have also thought that may be what Mark Furhman was referring to.

I think only Patsy knows the complete story of what happened and what she knew and didn't know. My guess is John was told a very sanitized version.

You know Albert, I tend to think along those lines too, wondering if John didn't come in on this way after the fact. The only thing that holds me back are those black fibers said to be consistent with a black shirt we're told John wore to the Whites (if I remember correctly). Weren't they found in or on JonBenet's underwear or inner thigh. How they got there is a big question. Secondary transference from Patsy? From John? The fibers belonged to Patsy's black velvet (cotton?) slacks/trousers/pants instead of John's shirt?

 

[BOESP]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

ROTFLMHO Tell Ames the answer to her question was sent PM:dance:

 

[Ames]

Well, since you brought it up, how old?

It's not me, Ames wants to know.

LOL....its the old "Blame it on Ames" trick, huh? You are too funny!!!

 

[Ames]

You know Albert, I tend to think along those lines too, wondering if John didn't come in on this way after the fact. The only thing that holds me back are those black fibers said to be consistent with a black shirt we're told John wore to the Whites (if I remember correctly). Weren't they found in or on JonBenet's underwear or inner thigh. How they got there is a big question. Secondary transference from Patsy? From John? The fibers belonged to Patsy's black velvet (cotton?) slacks/trousers/pants instead of John's shirt?

You know, that same thought came to me today...Patsy sure was persistant in getting those black slacks back...(now say that three times fast..LOL) The only thing about that is, John shirt was made in Israel....it was an Israeli shirt, and the fibers were consistant with it. I think that he used it to wipe her down with.

 

[JMO8778]

DeeDee249,
On returning from the White's, Burke stated that JonBenet walked into the house.

The presence of the pineapple tells you JonBenet was awake, and walked about after returning from the Whites.

It is likely that the parents account of redressing a sleeping JonBenet prior to placing her into bed is wholly ficticious, simply because their original accounts were contradictory, later amended, with suitable memory loss caveats.

Steve Thomas is on record stating JonBenet wore the gap-top to the White's party.

imo JonBenet was either wearing the red-turtleneck when killed, or it had been removed to faciltate a sexual assault, or it was intended to play some part in another staging scenario?

Also although there may not be any underwear inside those soiled pants on the floor, and this might suggest that JonBenet never wore any that day e.g. because they are soiled, then patently since Patsy supervised JonBenet's bathing and dressing, she even alleges they argued over which clothing to wear, then she will have made sure JonBenet was wearing underwear, and most certainly not the size-12's!

Also if JonBenet died as a result of bedwetting etc, then why did someone prepare a pineapple snack for JonBenet prior to bedtime, most children who wet the bed have their pre-bedtime fluids strictly rationed?

Speculating there is also the long shot that JonBenet changed back into the soiled pants, and wore the red turtleneck for the reasons you suggest, Patsy cannot say this since Jonbenet is not supposed to be awake, so fabricates an argument, after her death JonBenet is undressed possibly in the bathroom, where she is wiped down etc?


.

could very well be they got into an argument over it;Patsy was known to want to dress her and JB alike,and they weren't that evening.But I suspect the red shirt was put on her at some time prior to bedtime,and she was later manually strangled in it,thus that's how it ended up there,only Patsy uses the prior argument to account for it.
Dr Spitz says she was manually strangled with a shirt collar first,and that seems to be the most likely one.

 

[JMO8778]

Yep, ST would have done a better job, I bet. I think the Rs specifically refused to allow ST to question them at some point. I seem to recall that. They and their Dream Team knew ST would ask all the right questions.

right on,he wouldn't have slacked on it or let anything pass the way the others did.

Y'know, I don't remember seeing anything about the vest other than PR describing the Gap outfit (which I believe was new, that's why JBR wanted to wear it) as being the black velvet jeans and vest and the white sequin star top. I remember PR saying she wanted JBR to wear the red shirt with the pants and vest so they would match each other, but JBR wanted to wear the white one. You know how kids are. I can imagine a 6-year old JBR, who was probably even more interested in clothes than your average 6-year old girl because of the pageants, photo shoots, etc., wanting to wear the white top for any number of reasons. She liked the sequins, or because it was bought as a set with the black velvet pants and vest, or because her mom wanted her to wear the red one and she didn't want to match her mom or she didn't want to wear an old red shirt with the new outfit.

yes, and I think Patsy may have taken that personally,ie-it was about the clothes themselves,not about her not wanting to dress like her mom.
that's odd that no mention of the vest is ever made again.

 

[JMO8778]

Also if JonBenet died as a result of bedwetting etc, then why did someone prepare a pineapple snack for JonBenet prior to bedtime, most children who wet the bed have their pre-bedtime fluids strictly rationed?

but pineapple is a fibrous snack;if you have kids you know that you certainly wouldn't want to send them to bed hungry,and it doesn't sound like she ate much at the White's.

 

[BOESP]

You know, that same thought came to me today...Patsy sure was persistant in getting those black slacks back...(now say that three times fast..LOL) The only thing about that is, John shirt was made in Israel....it was an Israeli shirt, and the fibers were consistant with it. I think that he used it to wipe her down with.

Like you, I wondered why she pitched such a hissy to get the black slacks back. In DOI she says it was because they were her favorites.

I wondered if JonBenet had been wiped down with the shirt too. I can't remember how many fibers consistent with the shirt were recovered. Seems like just a few. I wonder if they were secondary transference or if Patsy used the shirt or if John used the shirt. I can't see John using his shirt to wipe her down. He's smarter than that (I think). Wonder where that shirt was -- maybe in the dirty clothes? John was still wearing it?


Isn't "Take The Black Slacks Back Jack" an old Simon and Garfunkle song? :waitasec: Maybe we can work out something with "Put The Blame On Ames." (Now Albert will know I really AM old :woohoo::woohoo

 

[JMO8778]

Like you, I wondered why she pitched such a hissy to get the black slacks back. In DOI she says it was because they were her favorites.

her lawyers may have reminded her of fiber evidence...sounds like they already knew what happened, perhaps?

I wondered if JonBenet had been wiped down with the shirt too. I can't remember how many fibers consistent with the shirt were recovered. Seems like just a few. I wonder if they were secondary transference or if Patsy used the shirt or if John used the shirt. I can't see John using his shirt to wipe her down. He's smarter than that (I think). Wonder where that shirt was -- maybe in the dirty clothes? John was still wearing it?

I kind of wonder if he just leaned over her and they got there that way,in the process of staging.B/c I think he did that part.He may have touched her leaning over her,and didn't realize it.

 

[DeeDee249]

Even if they were my ONLY pair of pants, if they were the pants I was wearing when the dead body of my child was carried up from the basement and laid under the Christmas Tree, I'd NEVER want to see them again!

UK Guy, about the black velvet vest- you are correct in that the vest was NOT on JBR wheh she was "found" and probably not on her when she was killed. It was certainly not on her body when she was "found" nor when the coroner examined the body. So it wouldn't be listed among the items taken from the body at autopsy. It was mentioned in the interviews with PR as being part of the outfit JBR wore Christmas Day to the White's. Black velvet jeans, matching black velvet vest and white shirt with sequin star, all from the Gap and bought together as a set. As JBR DID have her pants removed after she got home that night, the vest was likely removed at that time. Whether she walked into the house or not that night at some point she was partially undressed, so the vest was removed then. I think she was awake when they got home, walked in, and then got (partially) undressed for bed. I believe the long johns were put on her to actually sleep in, and not for staging, but we all know she never got to bed that night.

 

[Ames]

Like you, I wondered why she pitched such a hissy to get the black slacks back. In DOI she says it was because they were her favorites.

I wondered if JonBenet had been wiped down with the shirt too. I can't remember how many fibers consistent with the shirt were recovered. Seems like just a few. I wonder if they were secondary transference or if Patsy used the shirt or if John used the shirt. I can't see John using his shirt to wipe her down. He's smarter than that (I think). Wonder where that shirt was -- maybe in the dirty clothes? John was still wearing it?


Isn't "Take The Black Slacks Back Jack" an old Simon and Garfunkle song? :waitasec: Maybe we can work out something with "Put The Blame On Ames." (Now Albert will know I really AM old :woohoo::woohoo

"Put The Blame On Ames".....LOL has a nice ring to it.

Now, he MAY have been the one to put the size 12 bloomies on her...(sounds just like something a man would do). And that is where the transfer came from, because he must have still been wearing that shirt.

 

[Ames]

her lawyers may have reminded her of fiber evidence...sounds like they already knew what happened, perhaps?



I kind of wonder if he just leaned over her and they got there that way,in the process of staging.B/c I think he did that part.He may have touched her leaning over her,and didn't realize it.

I said in an earlier post that I wondered if HE was the one that put the size 12 bloomies on her (Patsy probably got them for him)....and that is how the fibers from his shirt were transfererred. As you said....in the process of staging.

 

[Ames]

Even if they were my ONLY pair of pants, if they were the pants I was wearing when the dead body of my child was carried up from the basement and laid under the Christmas Tree, I'd NEVER want to see them again!
<SNIPPED>

I totally agree. I was thinking the same thing. I am sure that it wasn't because it was her "favorite" pair of pants though....(she had money, she could have bought more).....I think it was more on the lines of....I have to keep them, because they may have some sort of fiber evidence. I think that is why it took them so long to turn over the clothes that they were wearing that night, in the first place. After, I am sure, they had been laundered two million times.