Missing pregnant Shannon Watts and her two daughter's bodies found, husband arrested
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JLM: Psych Thread - Professional and Non-Professional Opinions/Theories

Discussion in 'Hannah Graham' started by bessie, Oct 24, 2014.

  1. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Use this thread to speculate about the psychological factors motivating Jesse Leroy Matthew's behavior.

    Professional and non-professional opinions are welcome. Do, however, make an effort to include documented sources to support your views.

    Be courteous and show respect for opposing views. Remember that you have the option to keep scrolling (often the wisest choice), and to use the IGNORE feature when necessary.

    If excessive arguing ensues, the thread will be shut down tout de suite, and will remain closed.

    :tyou:
     
  2. strawb93

    strawb93 Member

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    <modsnip>

    No one is to blame for this except the person who abducted and killed Hannah. No one.
     
  3. ClueingForLooks

    ClueingForLooks New Member

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    I get what you're saying. I think everyone should be careful in general in life. We live in a world of predators. We also live in a world of sharp objects, germs, bombs, etc.

    Bringing up a discussion on how women can protect themselves from predators in the wake of a girl being murdered by one puts some people on edge because it puts us on a slippery slope of laying responsibility of the crime on the person the crime was committed against, imo. The context loads it with implications because there's no shortage of people who really do think it's the victim's fault.

    In my opinion there are ongoing conversations on how women can protect themselves but there aren't enough conversations on how we can raise boys (and increasingly girls) to be less violent and self-entitled. Unfortunately is easier to figure out how to use a pepper spray can than to figure out how to (collectively) raise fewer rapists and murderers. But if people have the desire and wherewithall to kill and inflict pain then they'll find a way no matter what the victims are doing so I think it's more important to focus on the perpetrators (and potential perpetrators) rather than the victims.
     
  4. Piaget

    Piaget New Member

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    Of course no one is to blame but the criminal but it is the nature of human relationship to think in "what if" and "if only" terms and I feel for these kids as they struggle through a very adult exististential process and imagine how things could have been different. With freedom comes responsibility for your choices. Part of college development is learning that you can no longer live as if there is a benign protector always hovering. Please read Camille Paglia's recent piece on time.com. One great outcome of this could be a more complex examination of college behavior--we don't live in a perfect world and can't act as if we do.
     
  5. Concerned Mama

    Concerned Mama Grammar Ma'am

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    I agree with you, and while I have often disagreed with Paglia's opinions, the essay you are talking about should be required reading for many young women, even if just for the sake of considering Paglia's point of view, whether they ultimately agree or disagree.

    Of course nobody is to blame except the killer, yet we would be very naive to think the world should operate the way WE want it to, so we should be able to live our lives blissfully without fear. My own daughters are irritated by my advice to be safe, not walking alone at night, not running on deserted trails, not walking around the city or campus oblivious to the world around them with ear buds blasting their private soundtrack. Still, I hope that while they're rolling their eyes at me or letting out an irritated teenage sigh, they'll at least store my advice somewhere in the self preservation depths of their brains.

    But having said all of the above, I have to clarify that when I re-watch the security camera footage of Hannah, I see a girl who WAS taking some precautions. When captured across the street from the Shell station, she is running. Why? I'd like to believe it was because she knew she was in a sketchy area where she could be vulnerable, so she was running to reach a more populated area. And that's what just kills me. It's not until she reaches an area with lots of people, an area where she SHOULD be safe, that she falls victim to a predator, a wolf in sheep's (or teddy bear's) clothing. Why didn't somebody step in? So many people. Even a bouncer who had banned the predator from his bar due to the very behavior he was witnessing as he watched Hannah being supported by--practically carried by--this creep?

    Hannah may have helped save the next girl from JLM, but the price she and everybody who knew and loved her paid was far too great. If we truly want to help save the next girl, teaching girls to be realists and to be aware of their surroundings may be a step in the right direction, but it's still not enough. To help save the next girl, we need to step up and stop being bystanders, witnessing, but not stepping in to help or question when something doesn't look quite right. If we want to help save the next girl, we should put some of the responsibility for her safety on us.
     
    Anthony96 likes this.
  6. Kale

    Kale New Member

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    I have always believed that, while girls are frequently told to not become victims, boys are not all often enough told not to be violent criminals. No one wants to look at their sweet baby boy and even pretend for five seconds that there's a possibility that he'll be the horrible monster that does something like this. It probably doesn't even cross a lot of parents' minds. An eight year old boy is so sweet and innocent. But I think the "Don't hurt people" talk should be as required - and started at as early an age - as the sex talk and the drugs talk.
     
  7. Celtsleuth

    Celtsleuth New Member

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    I'd like to add that if parents see children be cruel to animals, start fires when young and wet the bed long past when that shouldn't happen, to get their children to a mental health facility...ASAP. It's called the homicidal triad and children that display these three things are most likely to offend and kill as adults.
     
  8. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    Interesting read, Celtsleuth..

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/m....html?_r=5&src=me&ref=general&pagewanted=all&

    Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?
    Then last spring, the psychologist treating Michael referred his parents to Dan Waschbusch, a researcher at Florida International University. Following a battery of evaluations, Anne and Miguel were presented with another possible diagnosis: their son Michael might be a psychopath.

    For the past 10 years, Waschbusch has been studying &#8220;callous-unemotional&#8221; children &#8212; those who exhibit a distinctive lack of affect, remorse or empathy &#8212; and who are considered at risk of becoming psychopaths as adults.

    Currently, there is no standard test for psychopathy in children, but a growing number of psychologists believe that psychopathy is a distinct neurological condition &#8212; one that can be identified in children as young as 5.

    <sniped - read more>
     
  9. jillycat

    jillycat Well-Known Member

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    And it's because some people simply desire to kill that there is no focus on them that will quell that impulse.

    I understand what you're saying, but I personally am disturbed by the direction much of the discourse about assaults on women is taking in our culture. There is a worldview being promoted on college campuses through events like 'Take Back the Night', where men march along side women with the message that only men can prevent assaults on women, and that is where the focus should be.

    If only violent perpetrators would get this through their heads, right?

    Is it reasonable that women leave their doors unlocked and their curtains open because we should be able to do so without fear of someone attacking us, and we need to talk to males more about their role in assault? No, we would not argue that.

    Is it reasonable that children play in the street because it's the drivers who are responsible for not running them over, and we need to focus more on educating drivers? No, we would not argue that.

    I don't blame Hannah for what a violent predator did to her. But neither do I think that violent predators care what you or I or anyone else thinks about violence.

    Sociopaths and psychopaths are still lying in wait for the next victim no matter how many healthy men reject violence and march with women, and these predators are hunting the woman who's walking alone.

    JMO
     
  10. Kale

    Kale New Member

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    As totally depressing as that is, wouldn't it be just great if we could really master this type of psychology so that we catch these things before they happen? And maybe even pioneer some new treatments and stuff? Perhaps a psychopath who hasn't yet harmed anyone could be viewed as a victim/patient, and could be compassionately cared for until they can be a functional member of society, just like people with autism spectrum disorders and so on. It doesn't really sound that far-fetched if you think of psychopathy as a neurological disorder instead of someone just having a horrible personality.

    ETA: Er, not that I'm likening psychopathy with any other neurological disorder of any kind or saying that people with any kind of disorder are "not functional members of society". Just thought I would clarify that ^_^;
     
  11. ThinkHard

    ThinkHard Former Member

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    Actually this is a really interesting point:

    May I suggest a book to everyone....its called "the science of evil", fascinating read!

    Anyway so I know you may at first think autism and psychopathology have nothing in common. But they are both neurobiological deviation in the brain functioning itself. Functional MRI's have recently shed light on being able to identify autism in the future through these scans. Meaning Functional MRI's could be used as a diagnostic tool in the future for neurobiological conditions such as these.

    Furthermore: Even though its said in Autism that there is a lack of empathy, this is not quite the same thing as a lack of empathy seen in a psychopath. Based on outside observation empathy often seems to be missing in Autstics, because they don't show it. Or they don't communicate what they are thinking/feeling on the inside with how they are behaving on the outside. So they may look blank, but could be processing something intense, even for anther person inside. So in empathy it is two fold, their is feeling empathy for others, and then their is acting in a way that is socially interpreted as empathetic. In Autism they muddy up the second part, but do not lack the first. In a psychopath they lack both....however likely have the charism and are queued in socially (unlike the autistic) to "play" empathetic appropriately.

    It would be really fascinating in the future if such technology, could lead us to more accurate, and earlier intervention.

    Hope that wasn't too boring...
     
  12. psyquestor

    psyquestor Just passing through

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    ThinkHard, No one is claiming a professional position here or stating emphatically that JLM has any disorder. The discussion was brought up under the aspect of nature or nurture and we are discussing the valid possibility that there are some genetic factors at play in psychopathy.

    We're entitled to discuss our opinions on this, no?

    Carry on.

    ETA this was a reply to this:

     
  13. Emerald1328

    Emerald1328 Well-Known Member

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  14. ThinkHard

    ThinkHard Former Member

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    Actually people had made statements regarding how no amount of nurture could have saved JLM because he was a psychopath, that's what I was referring too.

    Conversation about what a psychopath is etc, is understandable and open to discussion and opinion of course! Not disputing that. I was just asking that we lay off labeling JLM with a specific disorder because it may blind as to the larger picture.
     
  15. SolVol

    SolVol New Member

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    If JLM is a sociopath, a psychopath or a combination thereof, he is incapable of sympathy and empathy or remorse for his compulsions and actions. I've read lots about the sexual abuser priests and other sexual offenders. They feel justified and rarely feel any guilt whatsoever.

    Archbishop Diarmuid Martin in Ireland, who interviewed hundreds of sexual predator priests said he had only found one or two that had genuine remorse.

    Another expert on violent sexual predators said, (paraphrase) 'once sexual gratification/urge is joined to violence, it usually escalates into murder and cannot be treated/cured.'

    Such people are usually following a pattern they have observed or experienced in their earlier years.

    JMO and opinion of experts in criminology and psychology.

    The interview @ Inside C-ville with Dr. Jeffrey Farcher gives insight into the mind of a sexual predator - http://insidecville.com/city/dr-jeffrey-fracher/
    Also read the FBI study on Serial Killers - http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...ses/serial-murder-pathways-for-investigations
    ---
    As for my own feelings over this - as a parent of three daughters, three granddaughters (one a college freshman) - there is grief, tears, hurt for the family, anger, pity, all mixed up and alternating.

    This quote from a friend says it best for me:

    "I can assure you, Hannah Graham did not die abandoned and alone.
    She was surrounded by The LORD GODÂ’s unfailing, unflinching, eternal LOVE and LIGHT and multitudes of ministering angels. Heavenly arms reached out for her, lifted and held her close.
    Though her body was abducted and abused, her soul and spirit were kept and separated from evil and harm. ~ Psalm 121, Isaiah 55:1-2"
     
  16. Emerald1328

    Emerald1328 Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree with this too and didn't mean to give off the impression I just meant nuture. That quote can also apply to diseases such as lung cancer. Someone's genetics can make them predisposed to having lung cancer, but smoking may be the "trigger" that actually causes it to develop.
     
  17. MtnLaur

    MtnLaur New Member

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    SolVol, thank you for including this quote from your friend, with which I entirely agree. (OT a bit, but just want to say that those of us with backgrounds in psychology/science often embrace spirituality. They are not mutually exclusive.)

    I have read many posts beginning last night that made me appreciate the thoughtfulness and obvious intellect of so many of our websleuths. And thank you so much, Bessie, for opening this thread....I think it will be extremely helpful. I would just caution all, (myself included :) as Bessie has said: Let's be careful to include links when possible and refrain from making blanket statements that are too over-reaching. This whole topic is delicate, and there is a lot of pop psychology and pseudo-psychology out there, which we would want to avoid if possible. Looking forward to the discussion........
     
  18. jillycat

    jillycat Well-Known Member

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    I cannot imagine that rushing Ted Bundy to the nearest mental health clinic as a child would have changed a thing.

    Perhaps not a popular opinion, but I think the concept of 'treatment' of what we're calling 'illness' is a cultural desire to extend a medical model into a realm where it does not apply. We can objectively diagnose sepsis and treat it with antibiotics. We can observe how tumors behave and come up with chemicals to destroy them. We can only label behavior and thought. Somehow the latter has made its way into a book of descriptive language we use diagnostically as if something showed up under the microscope.

    My view is that labeling disturbing or heinous intent and behavior, talking with individuals who express those feelings and impulses, or developing medications that dull the thoughts and impulses of these individuals, are not 'treatments'. They are simply an attempt at social management and control of unacceptable behavior.

    I wish there was a pill or therapy style to stop someone like JLM from enjoying the hunting and killing of other humans. But I have never believed that naming a behavior is the equivalent of knowing what to do about it. I believe it even less as time passes, the diagnostic manual gets bigger, and the victim tally rises.

    JMO.
     
  19. margarita25

    margarita25 Jessica Ridgeway. Never Forgotten.

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    I had mentioned increased testosterone levels in Jenise Wright's thread, and iirc Psyquestor had provided a study and link relating to his.
    Psyquestor, can you please provide the link that study? Tia.
     
  20. wary

    wary Well-Known Member

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    My tentative theory, and I'm not a professional in any way, are that sociopaths/psychopaths are born, not created. I suspect, however, that environmental factors could help to change someone who simply has no empathy for others, into someone who thinks that killing and torture are fun. After all, even if you have not a trace of empathy for others, why would killing and torture be fun? Why wouldn't it just be boring, and messy, and dangerous?

    I started by saying 'abuse', and changed it to 'environmental factors,' to cast the net a little wider.

    And I moved this post over to a thread that seemed appropriate, dragging along the post that I quoted.
     

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