John Ramsey Fabricated Open Basement Window "Evidence"

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by BlueCrab, Jul 20, 2006.

  1. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    AndHence,
    Thanks for the link. On the broken window I tend to agree with much of what DocG says. Especially this:

    DocG Says
    DocG thinks it was JR who broke the window, that's possible as is BR, for whom JR is covering up, just as Patsy did over redressing JonBenet.

    Of course it was FW who moved the suitcase, so nearly everything falls into place.

    .
     
  2. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Well-Known Member

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    Fleet White noticed a shard of glass below the window, where was the rest? If the window had been broken minutes or hours earlier, what happened to the glass?
    Patsy?

    TRUJILLO: Okay. Any reason why that(basement window)wasn't replaced or the pane wasn't fixed or anything?

    PATSY: No, I don't know whether I fixed it or didn't fix it. I can't remember even trying to remember that, um, I remember when I got back, uh, in the fall, you know ...

    TRUJILLO: Um hum.

    PATSY:...Uh, WENT DOWN THERE AND CLEANED UP ALL THE GLASS

    I want to be explicit here. Patsy puts it on her that she cleaned up all the glass. What sort of glass are we talking about? Are they little splinters, little pieces, what's the glass like? If Patsy really cleaned up the glass, she'd know that right?

    TRUJILLO: Okay.

    PATSY: I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there.

    TRUJILLO: Um hum.

    PATSY: And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere.


    cottonstar
     
  3. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Well-Known Member

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    Notice Patsy is very, very clear about what she did. She uses the actual words "cleaned thoroughly" and "scoured that place". Why is Patsy so explicit about "picking up every chunk?"

    TRUJILLO: Okay.

    PATSY: AND I CLEANED ALL THAT UP and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there.

    TRUJILLO: To get all the glass.

    Did Linda Hoffman-Pugh ever clean up glass in the basement?

    Did the housekeeper know she was going down there for the explicit purpose of cleaning up glass? Well not according to the housekeeper.

    Hoffman-Pugh cleaned the Ramsey residence as late as December 23, immediately prior to the Ramsey's large Christmas party. When shown crime scene images of JonBenet's hair ties strewn on the bedroom floor, the housekeeper said it wasn't normal.

    In an interview with the Star,June 20, 2000:

    LINDA HOFFMAN-PUGH: "Another thing that made me think Patsy had staged the whole crime was the broken window in the basement. I used to clean their house three times a week. If something was broken, Patsy had me clean it up. On the morning of the murder, police found a broken window in the basement, just a few feet from the room where JonBenet's body was found. John Ramsey told the police that he had broken the window to get into the house months before when he was accidentally locked out. But I think that is a lie. If there had been broken glass in the basement, Patsy would have told me to clean it up. Another thing didn't make sense. John claimed he was locked out on that day when he supposedly broke the window. But he never used a key to come in the front or side door of the house. He always opened the garage door from his car with his remote and came in through the garage entrance. I think Patsy broke that window herself.....to make the police think there had been an intruder, and John concocted the story about breaking the window".



    cottonstar
     
  4. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, I don’t think John, Patsy, Burke or the housekeeper cleaned up the glass and disposed of it. I don’t think glass was destroyed on the scene and I don’t think Pam Paugh smuggled any from the scene. I don’t think the glass ever left the Ramsey home before the cops arrived on December 26th. Why? Two reasons:" from "sequin star: 2000 - 2006 (The JonBenét Ramsey Story Book 1)" by Nick van der Leek, Lisa Wilson


    cottonstar
     
  5. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Well-Known Member

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    1. Late on the night of December 26th, 1997, armed with a warrant, technicians went through the four storey labyrinth with a fine tooth comb. They searched that house from top to toe over the course of ten days and nights.

    When a crime scene technician examined the basement window he noticed pieces of glass outside the window, not inside. This suggests the window was broken from the inside out, not from the outside in. One major flaw I feel has dogged this particular area is the failure of the forensics guys to figure this out based on the splintering pattern of the glass.

    2. On the search warrant dated December 26th, 1996, on page 9, item 13 KKY says it all:

    Broken glass from wine cellar.


    cottonstar
     
  6. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]



    cottonstar
     
  7. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]



    cottonstar
     
  8. SuperDave

    SuperDave Former Member

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    They don't, AFAIK.
     
  9. sedndun

    sedndun Member

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    Having worked with glass for years, if it breaks, very often, not all the glass falls off. Closing the window could easily have sent some shards falling off into the recess there. A window left broken could likewise lose some pieces over time, especially if exposed to wind or other elements.
    Not disregarding this info, just saying that there could be reasons for it.
     
  10. TeaTime

    TeaTime Well-Known Member

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    UKGuy - I have never even considered that the broken window was BR's attempt at staging or even PR's. Silly me, I believed JR crawled through it in his underwear one night when he was locked out and that PR and/or LHP cleaned up the broken glass and no one bothered to see to it being repaired. But, this is interesting. What happened to the shards of glass? I guess they went with the rest of the paintbrush, tape and cord in a Louis Vuitton and a fur coat. Really though, the thought of a 9 year old staging a broken window to cover his tracks is pretty scary. Seriously, he would have to be odd, very odd. Scary. It would have to be someone who was/is bi-polar and wasn't getting their meds and maybe the reason for the GJ's opinion.

    I think JR is nutty enough to crawl through a basement window if he thought PR was in the house with another man, or he was sneaking in very late at night from a rendezvous but not just because he didn't have his keys, copies of which his neighbors had and he had a garage door opener which would lead to an unlocked garage door right into the house. But, that's me. I think he got home late in a taxi one night. Or he thought he would catch PR and her lover. For either reason, he didn't want the garage door to open and alert the people inside. It was likely a bad scene and is the reason it never got fixed.

    Crazy, but I call 'truth' on this one.
     
  11. BoldBear

    BoldBear Active Member

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    The possibility of an affair 1 year after being free from cancer and having a radical hysterectomy. I can go on for pages on the possibilities. It's not a bad idea. It's just gets very, very complex.
     
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Cottonstar,
    Thanks for your detective work. This shows maybe the window was broken that morning?

    That JR broke the window back in the summertime is looking less absolute now.

    .
     
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  13. Miz Adventure

    Miz Adventure New Member

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    So...let's assume that John broke the window. He either broke it when he was locked out - or he broke it that morning as part of the staging.

    Sorry to rain on your parade, but does it really matter?

    The fact is that one of the Ramseys broke that window. Surely the only people who dispute this are the IDI theorists?

    I think that in the scheme of things, in the light of what we now know, the broken window has very little importance.
     
  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    TeaTime,

    PR has brought a guy back to the house? Well maybe, but why might JR signal an entrance by breaking a window why not sneak in using his garage door opener or a spare key from under one of the garden pots?

    LHP says she does not remember a broken window and Patsy as usual contradicts herself saying she told LHP to sort it out, and that she helped to cleanup the broken glass herself?

    JR also offers a contradictory time line first its a summertime break in, then later its an intruder entrance point?

    So if it's all so clear cut why all the prevarication? Here is how I see it: the parents arrive late at the basement crime-scene, now either they or BR create the broken window?

    I doubt either parent broke the window, so to enact a fake staging scenario, they would know about the glass breakage direction issue.

    So if we think the case is BDI in particular BDI All, then why not BR breaking the window to go with some other fake staging, e.g. BR long johns on JonBenet, or the size-12's?

    BR's footprint is in the wine-cellar, as was his knife, he opened those Christmas Gifts according to Kolar. BR admits hanging about the basement, he traveled back downstairs on Christmas night to play with some toy. So it appears BR's locus of movement is the basement.

    So although one of the parents might have broken the window in a prior staging, which was then revised later by the other parent, its also possible BR attempted to fake a break-in, by breaking the window?

    That BR broke the window and both parents later covered for him is consistent with a BDI All theory, and precisely the parents postmortem accounts regarding the broken window, and similar behavior over other aspects of the case, e.g. broken window, i.e. JR says he broke it, samsonite suitcase, i.e. JR moved it to the basement, size-12's, i.e. Patsy gave them to JonBenet, BR's long johns on JonBenet, i.e. Patsy redressed JonBenet in them.

    .
     
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  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Miz Adventure,
    Not unless BR broke it. That one of the parents broke it as an attempt at staging, is definitely no smoking gun, since most members are RDI theorists.

    Demonstrating that BR could have broke it is important since it might represent some form of prior staging by him.

    It looks like BR redressed JonBenet in a pair of his long johns and those size-12's, so an amateurish attempt at staging a break-in by smashing a window, is consistent with the rest of the staging.

    .
     
  16. Miz Adventure

    Miz Adventure New Member

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    Well I did say I thought that one of the Ramseys broke it.

    I can't put myself in the brain of a 9 year old boy, but I've got a nephew of that age and he's considered very bright but I can't honestly imagine him being cunning enough to 'stage' anything, especially not a complicated sequence of events which involves thinking ahead.

    Kids just don't have minds that work in that way, do they? When I was 9 years old I always got caught out because basically at that age I wouldn't have had a developed enough brain to enable me to figure out the sequence of events that would enable me to cover up my 'crimes' (which in those days probably involved something like stealing my sister's ice cream).

    Staging the scene of a murder in order to pin it on an intruder is the kind of thing that only adults would be capable of, imo.
     
  17. AndHence

    AndHence Active Member

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    I agree with LHP's hunch. I think Patsy probably broke the window and John thought it looked hinky, so he made up the story about breaking the window the previous summer. John never mentions the window to the cops because he himself doesn't buy the intruder staging. Instead he suggests it's an 'inside job' and begins listing off people who had keys to the house and naming colleagues who might have held a grudge against him. When he 'finds' JonBenet's body his first instinct was to hop on a plane and leave. He knows the intruder/kidnapping story is bogus and that they will need to circle the wagons.
     
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  18. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Miz Adventure,
    I tend to agree with you. Yet Ten years ago where was BDI, who ever thought BR would be on national TV, the focus of a homicide theory?

    I agree complex staging would be beyond the abilities of most 9-year olds. At this age children know the mechanics of blaming third parties, i.e. it was not me it was an intruder, the staging involved is not rocket science, i.e. cleanup, redressing, relocation, and a broken window.

    All that is within the capabilities of a 9-year old. That JonBenet was left wearing BR's long johns, the oversized size-12's, along with a window broken from the inside, is not the mark of adult staging is it?

    If its not staging could the broken window have resulted from BR swinging something around in a confined space?

    .
     
  19. Miz Adventure

    Miz Adventure New Member

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    Do we know for certain that the window was broken from the inside? (because this is the first time I've heard this).

    I just don't think that BR would have had the presence of mind, the forethought, to break a window in the hope his parents would think an intruder killed his sister.

    If BR smashed JBR's skull with a baseball bat in the train room then maybe....just maybe that's how the window could have got broken...and that is IF it was broken from the inside and I tend to think it wasn't.

    Nope, I don't really buy any of it.
     
  20. HarmonyE.

    HarmonyE. New Member

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    To the bolded, I agree. No way. However, I think there is a chance that it was Burke who broke the window earlier, and not middle-aged John in his underwear who looked nowhere near as fit and agile as the two people we have seen go through that window - Lou Smit and Laura Richards. As I've opined upthread, John had many other options. Assuming a locksmith was not available (although 24/7 emergency locksmiths do exist), he had a company cell phone to phone a friend, his car, no doubt cash or credit for a motel room, or simply the option of spending the night in his no doubt very nice office.

    But why would Burke have broken into the house that way when it's highly doubtful that he ever ended up locked out the house by either parent, even accidentally? Maybe just because he was a little brat and he could. Perhaps when playing outside he noted the grate could be moved and decided it would be a fun adventure to try to get into the basement - his personal domain - in that particular way. He would have had no difficulty maneuvering in that way. Lazy Patsy never bothered to get the window fixed, and besides, he would be the one suffering from the draft down there. Passive/aggressive punishment. This would also explain why they lied about John breaking in, even though it had no direct connection to the crime that night. So your son kicked in a window for fun? Why would he do such a thing? Did he explain? Was he punished? Have you ever sought professional counseling for him?

    Speculation only, but if something like this did happen, no way would the Ramseys want LE to know about any prior bad behavior on Burke's part.
     
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