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JonBenet Ramsey Documentary

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Laura Mountford, Oct 7, 2018.

  1. awillis0513

    awillis0513 Active Member

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    The Grand Juror who spoke on 20/20 said they knew who killed JonBenet and the indictments reflect that.
     
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  2. Swirlz

    Swirlz Well-Known Member

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    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation (paperback, page 6)

    "She had a continuing problem with wetting her bed, regressing in her toilet training in the months before her death. Occasionally she would even defecate in the bed and at one point was wetting or soiling her underpants during the day."

    How did she know it was Burke's?
     
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  3. Swirlz

    Swirlz Well-Known Member

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    Can you source this?
     
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  4. questfortrue

    questfortrue Active Member

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    Caveat - I’m not taking any sides of BDI/PDI /JDI or combination thereof. Just clarification on a few points.

    Many/some believe the interpretation of the True Bills represents an absolute statement of BR’s guilt, as the unnamed 3rd person being protected by the adults. Taking the True Bills in isolation, this looks like what is in the indictment, and it is what a couple of Colorado attorneys have suggested. However, from what I’ve gleaned in listening to other attorneys, there may be reason to step back and think about what the GJ was considering.

    First, these are the quotes excerpted from the program with the Grand Juror -

    The juror said he believes that there was enough evidence to indict John and Patsy Ramsey for a crime, but he doesn’t think they would have been convicted.

    “There is no way that I would have been able to say, ‘Beyond a reasonable doubt, this is the person,’” the juror said. “And if you are the district attorney, if you know that going in, it’s a waste of taxpayer dollars to do it.”

    Still, he says the grand jury did recommend charges against John and Patsy Ramsey, indicating the jurors believed they placed JonBenét in a situation resulting in her death.

    The Juror who spoke in 2016 did not exactly say they stood by their True Bills in the sense that these were absolutely the only story to be told about JB’s death. One can interpret that he is saying the True Bills were not strong enough to take to court. Or, OTOH, the evidence was not strong enough to name the actual killer. If they were considering the first (True Bills not strong enough to convict on child abuse, etc.), then this, of course, provides a legitimate excuse for AH as to why he didn’t go to court. If he was suggesting that because they did not have evidence to name the killer, then the True Bills look as though they were a compromised decision. A compromised decision was the interpretation of Colorado attorney and commentator Dan Recht.

    This Juror also claimed that he (he himself, not speaking for the entire GJ) believed from one piece of evidence which he did not divulge, that he knew who the killer was, but it wasn’t enough. BPD investigator Jane Harmer also specified it was lack of evidence which held them back, and that their group of advisors believed it to be the right decision.

    Do prosecutors take a case to court if a child is involved
    In Colorado, if a child is wholly or partially responsible, prosecutors will use the child’s initials in a case of proving the adults were responsible, i.e. negligent. Negligence is part of the child abuse code.

    Severance
    It’s been said that if the GJ thought that one of the Rs were responsible, and the other adult went along with the scenario, they would have named them as co-conspirators. I’m told by a defense attorney that prosecutors will use the term co-conspirators in gang crimes when they don’t know who fired the gun and everyone has clammed up. ‘If nobody talks, everybody walks.’

    The problem with naming them as co-conspirators is the concept mentioned by Bill Wise, deputy attorney in the DA’s office. The concept is severance. It was Wise’s belief that if the Rs requested their cases be separated, tried separately, that without sufficient forensic evidence, each could have named the other as the killer and suddenly there’s no way to prove them wrong in a court of law.

    How True Bills in Colorado are voted
    Colorado operates a little differently than many other states in voting True Bills. It takes 9 votes to vote a True Bill up or down. Although only 2 True Bills were returned (voted up) the other True Bills were not (voted down). This effectively leaves the possibility that if through forensic evidence or a confession one of the adults were found responsible for her death, that person could be charged. (So long as that person were alive. :) ) Had they voted a Murder charge down, the accused(s) could counter that the down vote allowed them off the hook.
     
  5. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    questfortrue,

    Irrespective of the legal niceties this Count sounds like its alleging both parents knowingly staged the crime-scene, regardless of who the person was.

    Why would the Grand Jury refer to a person here and not say JR, PR or both? Also why not just level a Count of
    Murder in the First Degree and Child Abuse Resulting in Death. against each parent just like the assistance and neglect Counts they leveled?

    Again foregoing the legal niceties, cross-finger pointing, etc, both parents are said to be knowingly, leaving JonBenet in a situation which led directly to her death.

    Do you not think there must be something specific in Count IV(a), i.e. beyond simply disregarding JonBenet's welfare, lets say allowing the kids to do what they want?

    Which location in the Ramsey house would pose a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which would result in the death of JonBenet Ramsey?

    Count VII seems to be saying something similar to both parents staged the wine-cellar crime-scene, the publicly available forensic evidence seems to suggest this?

    What Count VII adds is the knowingly term, meaning both parents colluded to arrive at an agreed end. Surely this does away with singular JDI or PDI theories?

    Sure, and this Juror will have seen and heard all the evidence we have not. So does this Juror mean the person who sexually assaulted JonBenet is the same person that ligature asphyxiated JonBenet?

    Sounds like he is saying we know the parents staged the wine-cellar crime-scene, and I know who killed JonBenet, I just cannot prove it beyond reasonable doubt?

    Who thinks in Count VII that Child Abuse refers to JonBenet being sexually assaulted?

    This would mean

    1. JR and/or PR were sexually abusing JonBenet which led to her death, which they consequently staged.

    or

    2. BR sexually assaulted JonBenet which led to her death, which the parents consequently staged.

    Yet JR and BR continue to want to appear in TV talk shows to promote the IDI theory, despite the GJ Counts, go figure.


    .
     
  6. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Member

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    My strong personal feelings about what happened to little Jonbenet were PR was molesting her to punish her (douching her and hurting her sexually) for her incontinence. JR started using her for sex when his wife was unavailable for sex.
    And she felt like they were two monsters tearing her apart.
    She didn’t feeling pretty because her body was being ruined by two monsters. And she was losing her ability to hold her urine and bowels more and more.
    And BR’s derisive attitude and physical violence toward her reflected how he had been taught to see her by his parents. If it’s okay for PR and JR to treat her like a whore, then a whore she must be.
    And I think DS was a little older than BR? So she was his favorite game, and BR was helping.
    Also JAR was the only Ramsey family member who, at the time of the murder covered his face from the media. So if he had any little scratch marks on his face? Does anyone know if there were any pictures taken of his face at the time?
    They SAY he wasn’t there that night. Who does? Our lovely family members who would never lie and have never been caught in a lie?
    Or could something have happened on the night of the 23rd?
    Also, every single time I see that closet, laundry room, and bathroom in the basement I get a horrible feeling they used to lock her down there at night. Or restrain her down there in the dark cellar all night long. Like an animal. And whatever torture she went through, they took her by the hand and deliberately led her down to that basement bathroom for. She knew what was going to happen, when they took her down there.
    Maybe she was getting old enough to talk. What did FW have to say about what happened?
    What happened with her little friend (she used to sleep over her house)?
     
  7. Laura Mountford

    Laura Mountford Member

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    As far as I know BR has done one interview with Dr Phil which he got paid for so he is not frequently offering to talk to people. He waited for years and then probably chose the highest paying offer for his story...
     
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  8. Pollice_Verso

    Pollice_Verso New Member

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    The CBS 'documentary' was a total sham that was not a "complete re-investigation", but a a pre-determined 'investigation' based on Kolar's book and everything that followed was twisting, stretching, ignoring, explaining away and even inventing 'evidence' to point in that direction.

    The 'climax' of this theory is that Burke bashed JBR's head in because she took a piece of his pineapple* meal.
    Utter nonsense.

    There is no evidence whatsoever that Burke Ramsey killed JBR. None.

    *According to Paula Woodward (who had access to the "Murder Book Index," a 3,000-page summary of files and reports on the case and an unpublished 1,000-page Boulder Police Department file of its officers' involvement in the case) in We Have Your Daughter: The Unsolved Murder of JonBenet Ramsey Twenty Years Later, the pineapple was probably part of a fruit cocktail that JBR ate:

    According to previously unreleased BPD reports, laboratory testing revealed that JonBenét also ate cherries and grapes as well as pineapple. Remnants of cherries were found in the stomach/ proximal area of her small intestine. “Another item besides pineapple was cherries.” (BPD Report #1-1348.) In that same report: “Another item besides pineapple was grapes.” (BPD Report #1-1348.) Another report expands on the grapes, saying “grapes including skin and pulp.” (BPD Report #1-349.) The food described resembles what is included in most cans of fruit cocktail.
     
  9. Laura Mountford

    Laura Mountford Member

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    How does a fruit cocktail mean BR is innocent?
     
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  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    SarahThePrincess,
    You could be right about the parents, but JAR who was another favorite suspect of BlueCrab was thousands of miles away when JonBenet was killed.


    Perfect Murder, Perfect Towm by Schiller, excerpt pp 257
    Just going by the True Bills the case has to be the Parents Did It or Burke Did It !

    Does anyone know if the Grand Jury could have compelled JonBenet's therapist to attend?

    .
     
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  11. awillis0513

    awillis0513 Active Member

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    I will reemphasize this part of the interview with Lisa Polansky:

    RICHARDS: So on or between December 25 and December 26, 1996, John Bennet Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously commit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child’s life or health which resulted in the death of JonBenét Ramsey. The other count was John Bennet Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such a person knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of Murder in the First Degree and Child Abuse Resulting in Death.
    CLEMENTE: Does that mean that they’re charging John with assisting Patsy if she did it and they’re charging Patsy with assisting John if he did it?
    LISA POLANSKY (“LISA”): It’s legally possible in the state of Colorado for John to be assisting Patsy, Patsy to be assisting John.
    CLEMENTE: Wouldn’t they both then also be charged with the underlying crime, as opposed to just—
    LISA: Yes. Normally, if they do an accessory charge which here is generally after the fact, it’s usually somebody else. My opinion would be that there’s a third person.

    CLEMENTE: The only third person that’s left is Burke Ramsey.


    Therefore, according this this legal expert, if the Grand Jury was under the impression one parent helped the other parent kill JonBenet, then there would be a count for murder included. It's worth noting that Polansky has specialized not only in the law in Colorado, but the law especially pertaining to juveniles. Her website sites this.

    Also note, we only have the part of the indictments that show what the Ramseys were indicted with because that's all the judge ruled had to be released. Indictments typically include a statement of the general allegations made against the defendants, where details would be seen as to what the jury thought had happened. However, the only information the public has been given is the precise wording of the counts themselves. There's no place in that text that would include the name or initials of the person the Ramseys are believed to have assisted.
     
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  12. awillis0513

    awillis0513 Active Member

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  13. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Member

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    Then who was the tall male walking out of the house with a jacket over his head, into the minivan?
     
  14. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Member

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    Yes
    Yes. Fruit cocktail. Because of grape skins they found in the autopsy.
    Not BRs’ bowl of pineapple. With mom and BRs’ fingerprints on it. Drunk mom had no clean spoons so she gave him the bowl and a big spoon.
    They had been partying all night.
    They cleaned up the house in the morning. All the women probably hit the dishes and the laundry.
    How many people did PR call?
    To help muddy up the crime scene and set up the staging and alibi?
    Could the sound of dragging metal on concrete have been the freezer being pulled away from the wall? Where JBRS’ body was hid?
    The smell of decomposition could be smelled a good distance away from the body, it says. Could she have been wrapped in blankets and stored in the freezer?
     
  15. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Member

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    Well like Patsy said, G-d knows exactly what happened.
    And I am going to ask whenever I get up there.
     
  16. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    SarahThePrincess,
    Who knows, The Bogey Man?

    The case is RDI, that much we know today, all those years ago the case was wide open, and any theory could fly.

    Read the True Bills and peoples opinions, unless they are wrong, the case is either BDI or a variation on JDI/PDI.

    .
     
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  17. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Member

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    Well there was something that said cherries and grape skins? Could have been a small cup of snack fruit cocktail that was drugged?
    Was there any testing for Succs?
     
  18. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Member

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    Yeah. You are right Jonbenet isn’t getting any deader. There is nothing we can do to help her now.
    And obviously her parents worked very cleverly and quickly to make sure her murderer would never be caught and charged.
    It is like Mollie Tibbets’ murder to me. If her family doesn’t care, and isn’t grieving- I have remind myself not to get all worked up over it.
     
  19. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Member

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    Those are my strong feeling about it though.
    That little kid never had a chance. She never had a choice. She never had a voice.
     
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    awillis0513,
    Nicee post, should help some to decide one way or the other. Even without both parents having Murder1 Counts leveled at them, the True Bills still come down to BDI or JR and/or PR abusing and killing JonBenet?

    Meaning the True Bills say the case is really RDI, since the R's assisted the Person and placed JonBenet in a position of threat or danger.

    I cannot see any other interpretation, other than legal types doing some logic chopping on the interpretation of the alleged counts?

    .
     
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