JonBenet's hands were loosely bound

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by aussiesheila, Jun 15, 2006.

  1. aussiesheila

    aussiesheila Inactive

    Messages:
    938
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Although the knots tying the loops of cord around JonBenet's wrists were tight, the actual loops around her wrists were quite loose. John tried to untie the knot on the loop around her left wrist but I don't think he did end up untying it at all. I think he realized he could pull the whole loop over her hand and he removed the binding from the left hand that way.

    Before Meyer removed the cord from the right wrist he photographed the hand with the loop still around it. This photograph is on the Jameson website and it shows that there was a knot with a 5.5 inch end coming from it on the underside of the wrist. There is also a photo showing the upper side of the wrist and there is another knot shown there with another small loop. I think Meyer undid this knot and in doing so destroyed this small loop because it is not there in the photo showing the cord after its removal from the body. There was also a length of cord between the two wrist loops that was 15.5 inches long.

    This complicated system of knots and loops on loops and a length between the loops does not look like the type of binding a kidnapper would use to restrain his victim. For one thing a real kidnapper, or even a staged kidnapper would simply wind the cord around and around both wrists together and and he would tie her arms behind her back, not above her head. For another thing JonBenet could have wriggled her hands free from those loose loops no problem, that is, unless there was some tension put on her arms so that she could not move her arms at all.

    Those two wrist loops each with an additional superimposed small loop, and the length of cord between them suggest this binding had a different purpose, and I think it was to position JonBenet for a session of sexual abuse. I think she was stood on that chair that was later found in the doorway to the train room and with the wrist loops in place her arms were stretched straight above her head through being pulled by the 15.5 inch length of cord that was connected to a hook attached to some overhead structure. That way she was immobilized for the entire ordeal.
     
  2. Loading...


  3. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

    Messages:
    1,670
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    But if JB was hung up like that, her wrists would have shown marks. And where should that hook have been fastened? In the ceiling? Surely the police investigated the ceiling too.

    It is true that the wrist loops did not bind the victim properly because they were too loose around her wrist. But imo this is exactly what points to a staging where the panicked parent did not think in a 'logical' manner, making the blunder to even tie one loop around her sleeve.

    In short, this is a scenario where we have wrist loops which did not bind, a garrote contraption which could not have done the garroting (for a double knot was around JB's neck), duct tape placed on an already unresisting body, and a ransom note which wasn't a ransom note. All this just screams staging.
     
  4. aussiesheila

    aussiesheila Inactive

    Messages:
    938
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The wrist loops were not against her skin but over the top of her shirt and also if the loops were not taking the full weight of her body but just holding her arms over her head, then I think if very likely that there would have been no marks on her wrists at all.

    I don't think it would have been difficult to find some point of attachment for the cord. If look at the photos of the basement, you will see all kinds of pipes and ducts overhead in the boiler room that could possibly have been used as an attachment point. There are also those clamp things that are used in doorways to attach baby swings to, they could have used one of those. As far as the police not finding any evidence of of what I am talking about, there is no doubt in my mind that they didn't even look, and when you don't look, you don't see.

    My point about the loops and the loops on the loops and the multiple knots was that the tying was all very complicated and would have taken some time to construct. If the parents were trying to stage a hurried coverup they would have done those bindings in the simplest and quickest way possible and that would have been been to wind the cord around and around the two lifeless wrists together and tie the two ends with one ordinary basic everday type knot. If you look very carefully at the enlarged photo of the underside of the right wrist you will see what I mean about the unusual knot.

    I believe you are wrong about the knot on the neck ligature. I have reconstructed the knot myself from studying the photo and it does act like a 'noose' knot. It IS a 'noose' knot, just like the one on the cord around JonBenet's neck which made it into a perfect breath control strangulation device. It most certainly was not a 'double knot' on the ligature around JonBenet's neck and I don't know where you got that idea from. You are probably quoting from someone who I don't think knows what they are talking about.

    The duct tape was staging, yes I agree with that. I think one of the killers found it lying around in the basement after they had killed her and he got the bright idea that it would add a touch of authenticity to the kidnapper coverup scenario as though the kidnapper had put it on her as a gag when he was abducting her from the house. (The coverup plan being that the body was not going to be found in the house, but up in the mountains and preferably not until after decomposition had removed all traces of the sexual abuse.)

    I agree also that the ridiculous ransom note was staging, and was written by Patsy at the command of the coverup mastermind.
     
  5. narlacat

    narlacat Former Member

    Messages:
    9,182
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    <<My point about the loops and the loops on the loops and the multiple knots was that the tying was all very complicated and would have taken some time to construct.>>

    My understanding is, there was nothing complicated about the construction of the 'garotte' at all.
    A child could have done it.

    It was not a noose and was not used as a breath control device.

    It was just part of the staging.

    Just my opinion of course.
     
  6. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

    Messages:
    1,670
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That 'someone' was no one else than coroner Dr. Meyer, who, as opposed to us posters, actually had that knot right before his eyes, which is why I think we just can't dismiss his observations as being of someone who does not know what he is talking about, quite the contrary.
    PMPT, paperb. ed, p. 41, Dr. Meyer's observations dictated into a tape recorder (emphasis mine):

    "Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist."

    So this obviously was a plain and simple double knot which would not slip, and therefore no garroting could have taken place. Which makes a scenario likely where the longer end of the cord was looped around the paint brush handle after the knot was tied, which was one of the many blunders the perp made in his staging.
     
  7. aussiesheila

    aussiesheila Inactive

    Messages:
    938
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I was referring to the cord around the wrists, I meant that the tying of that was very complicated, I'm sorry if I did not make that clear.

    As far as the neck ligature goes, yes I agree that was very simple and a child could have done it. I was able to reconstruct the knot from copying what I saw in the autopsy photograph. I have not been able to do that with the knot on the underside of the right wrist though.
     
  8. aussiesheila

    aussiesheila Inactive

    Messages:
    938
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    yes you are absolutely right rashomon, Meyer did describe it as a double knot. I was wrong. So I don't dispute what he said was correct, but now I have to wonder what his definition of a double knot is because I have looked carefully at the photo of the ligature after Meyer had removed it from her neck and the knot is definitely a 'noose' type knot that would allow the cord it is wrapped around to slide through it
     
  9. tumble

    tumble New Member

    Messages:
    579
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    JBR was found with her arms above her head. This is a kind of strange position.
    A first though is that she has been hung up just like aussieshiela says.
    But then there are no marks on the wrists.
    Also why would the arms rest in that position when she was brought down. The arms would fall down along her side if she was limp, or she would move them normally if she was consious.

    Another thought is that she was dragged by the arms.
    The basement has a carpet that maybe would not leave abrasions on her heels if she was dragged or maybe she was dragged lying on the white blanket.
    Did the blanket extend up to the wrists of her extanded arms?
    Or maybe she was just dragged a very short distance leaving no abrasions on the heels.

    Here are some thoughts about this.
    1. Maybe the perp has some cord left over from the garrote. The easiest thing is to leave it at the scene, but that might look odd, why leave it. The perp then decides to use it up around the wrists. Or maybe he/she just decides to stage a restraining scenario. She was then dragged by the arms and left that way.
    2. Suppose the body was dragged somewhere by the arms.
    The body is left in that position for a while so that rigor mortis sets in.
    The the perp returns to the body and sees that this position indicates dragging and want to make it look like something else. Noticing that he/she can't move the arms the ligature draws attention away from the fact that she has been dragged by the arms.
    3. The ligature actually have a function just it is hard to understand.
    Normally when we find something and thinks 'I think it happend like this but I dont understand how, there must be a complicated explaination' the answer is you are trying to explain something that is not the case.

    BTW, one of the ends off the garrote cord was melted. Is there another melted end in the wrist ligature cord?
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,191
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It was her wrists which were loosely bound.

    Another interpretation of the staged evidence is that it forms a revision of a prior staging.

    So in a sense I agree with aussiesheila that the system of knots and loops seem made for another purpose.

    Its probable that there may have been a prior staging that encompassed a sexual assault, with JonBenet tethered to some household object, say her bed, that is before the onset of rigor mortis, there was either a staged sexual assault or one that was intentional, where JonBenet had her hands tied to the bed posts, and as rigor mortis sets in her arms take the position we imagine.

    When she was tethered JonBenet may have been posed for dramatic effect, either way, this form of staging was revised to that of a bedtime abduction complete with ransom note, so the wine-cellar staging incorporated those things we associate with it.

    This might explain why she was wiped down, was redressed in clean size-12 underwear, her blood-stained size-6 underwear most likely formed a visual part of the prior staging so had to vanish.

    Although some people, imo erroneously, have attempted to explain away her death as accidental and the garrote and cord as the remnants of an Erotic Asphyxiation (EA) session.

    Its just as probable that JonBenet was the victim of an intentional sexual assault which included bondage as a theme which then went wrong resulting in a head injury followed by a staging to obscure this?

    So part of my theory has JonBenet tied with cord lying on a bed upstairs (JAR's?), with her arms above her head, optionally posed in a sexual manner, her ankles may have been similarly tethered and/or other parts of her body, to lend to the dramatic effect, possibly resulting in the abrasions which are considered to originate from a stun-gun?

    When the script changed JonBenet was relocated to the basement along with various items of forensic evidence, which later became the wine-cellar staging so to reflect a kidnap and ransom note scenario better?


    .
     
  11. tumble

    tumble New Member

    Messages:
    579
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    UKGuy:

    Yes there may very well have been several stagings attemps. And your arguments makes sense. I would expect to find more forensic evidence of these prior stagings though.
    Suppose it went along as you describe. Have you formed any idea of why the stager chose to abandon the prior staging in favor of the kidnapping version which seem to be the last one as the RN was left in place and the silencing/restraining staging seem to go along with this(not too convincingly I must add)?
    To change a staging would seem dangerous to the perp knowing that this might shine though. I mean he/she would have to have a good reason to change.
     
  12. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

    Messages:
    1,670
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It seems that the artist rendition got it wrong (where JB is drawn with her hands stretched out above her head), for there exists a crime scene photo where JB's (who is lying on her side) right arm is bent at the elbow and she looks as if she is sleeping. Since she was already in rigor mortis when the picture was taken, this is how John Ramsey must have found her.
    And I believe when Dr. Meyer later saw JB's dead body lying on her back on the autopsy table, her arms (still in rigor mortis) bent at the elbows stuck up in the air and that was what he meant by 'above' her head.
     
  13. tumble

    tumble New Member

    Messages:
    579
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    good info rashomon.

    this photo is not available i presume?
     
  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,191
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    tumble,

    One reason to do staging is to attempt to replace genuine evidence with bogus evidence, hence the the cleanup upstairs and relocation of contextual evidence to say the basement, where its relevence is lost.

    But there are aspects to the stagings that suggest they are separate both in design and location.

    She was cleaned up.

    Her sexual assault was covered up.

    She is wearing day-clothing above her waist, but night-clothing below.

    This suggests she was partially redressed. e.g. white longjohns, and size-6's removed and replaced with size-12's.

    Her hair has been styled with asymmetric pigtails, and hair-ties were found strewn over her bedroom floor.

    Her body has numerous abrasions and contusions, yet she was discovered wrapped in blankets. So these did not occur in the wine-cellar.

    Paint-tote and wooden shards found outside the wine-cellar, suggests that the garrote was fashioned and applied outside of the wine-cellar, then she was deposited inside.

    A ransom-note was authored to reflect a kidnapping.

    Contrary to popular opinion it may be that John authored the ransom note whilst Patsy carried out most of the staging, with John later adding ad-hoc changes.

    So it may be she was moved along with some forensic evidence down to the basement, then cleaned up, redressed, a garrote applied, finally placed in the wine-cellar.

    Since we know there was an attempt to hide her sexual assault, and that an inconsistent ransom-note was authored, then obviously the latter kidnap scenario is patently staging so whatever preceded it was either a lustful sexual assault or a prior staging.

    Its possible all the staging was undertaken down in the basement, but this might mean the stager(s) running up and downstairs, both searching for items and removing forensic evidence?

    Whatever the correct sequencing, that there was more than one staging event seems credible?


    .
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,191
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    rashomon,

    Sure I accept that there was some artistic license added to her rendition, but I'm trying to offer an explanation why she may have arrived at her final posture?

    .
     
  16. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,263
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    48
    "My understanding is, there was nothing complicated about the construction of the 'garotte' at all.
    A child could have done it.

    It was not a noose and was not used as a breath control device.

    It was just part of the staging.
    I was referring to the cord around the wrists, I meant that the tying of that was very complicated, I'm sorry if I did not make that clear."

    Think they were done by two separate people?

    "This complicated system of knots and loops on loops and a length between the loops does not look like the type of binding a kidnapper would use to restrain his victim. For one thing a real kidnapper, or even a staged kidnapper would simply wind the cord around and around both wrists together and and he would tie her arms behind her back, not above her head. For another thing JonBenet could have wriggled her hands free from those loose loops no problem, that is, unless there was some tension put on her arms so that she could not move her arms at all."

    I've been saying that for a while!

    "As far as the neck ligature goes, yes I agree that was very simple and a child could have done it. I was able to reconstruct the knot from copying what I saw in the autopsy photograph. I have not been able to do that with the knot on the underside of the right wrist though."

    You're not the only one.

    "So part of my theory has JonBenet tied with cord lying on a bed upstairs (JAR's?), with her arms above her head, optionally posed in a sexual manner, her ankles may have been similarly tethered and/or other parts of her body, to lend to the dramatic effect, possibly resulting in the abrasions which are considered to originate from a stun-gun?"

    I was thinking more her own bed.
     
  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,191
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    SuperDave,

    Sure why not, moving one step backwards, JonBenet may have been killed in her own bedroom, but if she is to be abducted then her bedroom should be clean, so she may have been moved to JAR's room, whilst her own room was cleaned up, prior to then being relocated to the basement.

    .
     
  18. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

    Messages:
    1,670
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    UKGuy,
    I mentioned the actual crime scene picture in my post because it contradicts aussiesheila's scenario which places JB on a chair with her hands extended straight above her head, surrounded by a ring of pedophiles.
    Whereas the crime scene picture shows JB with her right arm bent at the elbow, and she looks like she is sleeping. Didn't Linda Arndt describe JB's position like that too?
    I can't find the photo right now, it used to be at the CandyRose site, the caption was 'JonBenet at house'. Maybe someone could post it here?

    To get back to your post: what was JB's final posture? Obviously placed in the wine cellar, wrapped in a blanket, looking like she was sleeping.

    I agree with you that there may have been several attempts to stage different scenes which when you look closely at them, are mutually exclusive (sexual assault excludes (political) kidnapping for ransom, and wrapping JB in a blanket like a sleeping child excludes both former scenarios).

    Which came first? Maybe looking at which came last is more helpful here: JB was found in the wine cellar wrapped in a blanket and placed in a sleeping position. Imo this was no staging, but the final (caring and 'undoing') act of a parent who put his child in her 'resting place' in the wine cellar before she was to be 'discovered'.
    This leaves the other two scenarios. As far as I recall from reading your prior posts, the Ramseys staged the kidnapping scene last. Why did they leave the body in the house then? Do you think they thought it too risky to dump it somewhere outside? Or couldn't they they bring themselves to do this to their child?
     
  19. tumble

    tumble New Member

    Messages:
    579
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Or couldn't they they bring themselves to do this to their child

    I think this is the case. Remenber the writer of the RN seems to show concert about a proper burial for JBR.
     
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,191
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63

    rashomon,

    Given the injuries that JonBenet sustained I doubt very much that the placement and final posture in the wine-cellar was
    .

    JonBenet's relocation was premeditated and calculated, prior to this a garrote was applied, and visible signs of her previous sexual assault was wiped away.

    One aspect is unclear, just where the garrote was applied, do you think whoever created it, came down to the basement looking for a piece of wood and cord, selected a paintbrush, broke it, then returned upstairs, or did it all take place in the basement?


    Its probably a mistake on our part to consider that JonBenet's corpse was ever to be dumped outdoors?

    Why would a sexual predator abduct a lifeless child, and remove her from her house and anyway where to, and why? It would be simple to determine that her injuries did not occur outdoors.

    Similarly regarding the Kidnap and Ransom-Note staging, why leave your intended abductee on location, even worse why kill your golden goose, and compound it by dumping her corpse outdoors?

    I guess the simple answer is that both staging scenarios e.g. Sexual Predator and Kidnapper, would require a live JonBenet at another location for them to be credible.

    So its probable JonBenet was placed in the wine-cellar in an attempt to validate the ransom note staging.
     
  21. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,263
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    48
    "Sure why not, moving one step backwards, JonBenet may have been killed in her own bedroom, but if she is to be abducted then her bedroom should be clean, so she may have been moved to JAR's room, whilst her own room was cleaned up, prior to then being relocated to the basement."

    Maybe so. It's not like it was a well-thought-out plan.

    "I guess the simple answer is that both staging scenarios e.g. Sexual Predator and Kidnapper, would require a live JonBenet at another location for them to be credible. So its probable JonBenet was placed in the wine-cellar in an attempt to validate the ransom note staging."

    I've thought that myself.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice