JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by otg, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    I noticed in one of my previous posts that the pictures I uploaded didn't show up. I don't know why, but they were important to illustrate what I was trying to show. So I'm going to repost the relevant portion with the photos included (hopefully):

     

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  2. EtherealMoonRose

    EtherealMoonRose Member

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    I read this medium session online where some lady connected with JB and Patsy and she was told that Patsy hit her with an old-style wrought iron lamp. (Don't personally believe it myself)

    I think it was the flashlight but just wanted to throw that in there.
     
  3. archieil

    archieil On Time Out

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    JonBenet Investigation Group
    It seems notes in this matter have 2015 as a year of posting.

    The movie posted here by otg is from 2013 so an idea appeared earlier.

    Keep in mind what you have got depends on many factors.

    That is why there is no single one 100% sure answer as long as someone was not watching exactly what has happened.
     
  4. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    With regard to number one, that's how I feel, except I feel that way with the Maglite. The Maglite is shorter in length compared to the bat, so the momentum of the force would be less, compared to the longer bat swing. Also, if the victim's head was already laying against something (i.e. the floor), that would also factor into it. Either way, I think it would be easier to make this particular with the bat and by swinging it by the barrell, because the killer would have more range in motion.
     
  5. archieil

    archieil On Time Out

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    One of my ideas is the killer gripping the bat in the middle and is hitting to stop her instinctively.

    The idea of JonBenet falling on sth fixed was used because of the time between fracture and strangulation.

    It fits well with someone who has no idea it was not just a knockout.
     
  6. AlGx

    AlGx Member

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    What is this JI/JBI group/team I've seen mentioned in this thread a few times??
     
  7. HRP

    HRP New Member

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    What you say (that I bolded) shouldn't be a requirement, if you know what I'm trying to say. Who are "us" who have to be convinced who are not already convinced it is not someone other than John, Patsy, or Burke? See how I cannot discuss anything without being thought a "troll" for having a different point of view? And I do understand the "no intruder" rule here, and it is frustrating for me, I must admit. I thank you for your kind gesture. It would be nice to have the experts here dissect my thoughts and tear them apart objectively without the devout loyalty to not looking outside the box this forum has become (and I mean no disrespect). Thanks again.
     
  8. AlGx

    AlGx Member

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    Could the square base of a pageant trophy had been used to cause the head wound? I remember seeing one lying on the floor during the crime scene video.

    Or would that have cut her head open completely?
     
  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    otg,
    Thanks for the photographs. My takeaway is that it appears JonBenet was whacked from the side, not the back or front, assuming the angle of the flashlight is realistic?

    From what I remember from my geometry lessons, don't ask, you have two semi-spherical bodies meeting, so some kind of elliptical indent should be left in one of them?

    A rough rectangular indent is not what I would expect to see, so although I could not rule out the flashlight, its geometry does not seem to match the skull dpression, but what do I know?

    .
     
  10. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe the Maglite was used either, my friend -- and certainly not the bulb end because of the geometry. But for the same reason I don't think it was the barrel, neither do I think it was the bat. All the experiments I did, and the math I was shown at the math site (http://www.mathisfunforum.com/viewtopic.php?pid=261595#p261595) indicates to me that the object that caused the skull fractures was between 1/2" to 1" diameter. Neither the Maglite barrel or the heavy portion of the bat would fall within that size.
     
  11. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    Were it the bulb end of the Maglite (but it's not), that's correct. Not believing Spitz's idiocy, the position of the assailant would depend on what the actual weapon was.


    Depends on their diameters.

    Imagine this... If you had a perfect sphere and it intersected with a perfectly flat object, what would the shape of the intersection be? (A: circle.)

    Now imagine that you could bend the sides of that same flat object up until it was curled into a cylinder. What then would the intersection be? (A: ellipse.) The ratio of the width to length of the ellipse would depend on the diameter of the cylinder in relation to the sphere. (The depressed fracture in JB's skull was 1/2" x 1-3/4".)


    Well, you know enough to disagree with Spitz. Congratulations. Now if we could just convince Kolar that he's been led astray.
     
  12. Darlene733510

    Darlene733510 Active Member

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    It's been a long while since I posted, but I remember that in the wine cellar there was a bucket, or maybe an empty 5 gallon paint bucket. There were items in there that we were trying to identify.
    Plumbers had been at the house and I thought that maybe the things in the bucket were wrenches that would be larger than a normal pipe wrench. There is a place on these wrenches which juts out, and is used to adjust the wrench. I think one of these maybe could cause that horrible head injury, with the adjustment place causing the area which made the hole in her skull.
     
  13. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Darlene. I think you must be talking about when we were wondering what might have been in that workman's pail. (Boy, that was some time back. Time flies when we're having fun, eh?) It must have been after you disappeared for a while that I found and posted what I suspect was the weapon. I put the info in the following post:

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Fractures-The-Weapon&p=10634184#post10634184
     
  14. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

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    06-17-2014, 03:33 PM Post # 450

    I've read many posts, too numerous to count, on this forum for JonBenet. otg, many of your posts gave me pause to consider the data provided. This is one of those outstandingly informative posts. Thank you.

    Edited to add: Hello, Darlene!
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    otg,
    There is not much we disagree upon, those points we do can be technical or subjective so are open to revision.

    Personally I do not reckon Kolar has been led astray. I think his interpretation of the forensic evidence lies within the legal boundaries set by his prior employment contract.

    This is why both Spitz and Kolar cite similar scenarios both in the CBS documentary and his book that are off the wall, e.g. Burke whacked JonBenet for stealing pineapple chunks, but note the location, i.e. breakfast bar.

    In other words, not JonBenet's bedroom from where she was transported to the basement. Bloodstain on the pillow anyone?

    So it could be argued that there has been an institutional coverup that uses Burke's age at the time of the homicide as an overarching rationale, thus spawning a JonBenet Who Did it industry.

    Consider Steve Thomas' book which was not his original theory, the R's threatened legal action so his theory was amended. He more or less told Kolar it's your turn for the limelight and royalties, whilst declining to talk over the finer points of Kolar's theory in public.

    So none of the investigators who have published books can really be trusted to be telling the truth or revealing new forensic evidence as their employment contracts say otherwise. Note they do not publish their prior contracts for public scrutiny.

    So it appears there is a commercial and legal conspiracy to prevent what actually happened the night JonBenet was killed from becoming public knowledge.

    So unless Burke Ramsey is an accident of history, an individual wih an Autism Spectral Disorder, thereby an easy target for conspiracy theorists, such as Kolar who wish to paint him into a corner, where he killed JonBenet in pursuit of child like erotic desires, he is the killer of JonBenet and both John and Patsy Ramsey effected staging to edit him out of her death?

    That's my take on the case, and why PDI is for birds, as it's Steve Thomas' revised theory one he did not defend against Kolar's in interview.

    I give JR full marks for heroically defending his son in the manner he has. At his age other matters than your son's wellfare will be at the front of your mind. Note how JR takes a bullet for the flashlight just as Patsy did on Burke's long johns, or as they are known in the crime authoring community long underwear.



    So the case is BDI all the way down, with an institutional coverup, complete with a fake news agenda.

    .
     
  16. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    UKG, no one has all the answers. Even those who know more than the general public had to depend on others to fill in the spaces where their knowledge was limited.

    I don’t know why Steve Thomas chose to believe the “toilet rage” theory that was put out by Dr. Krugman, other than my guess that to him (Thomas) it filled in the gaps on motive for why someone in the home would kill JonBenet. Krugman stated, “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," and he convinced Thomas that this was the cause. So Thomas developed his entire theory around that.

    Kolar, not understanding the medical aspects, bought into Spitz’s pronouncements. Once convinced that Spitz had it right about why an unexplained Maglite was shown in a CS photo, Kolar believed it to be the source of the skull fractures. Then he thought since it was there in the kitchen area along with a bowl of pineapple that the Ramseys denied having given to JonBenet, he made the connection with the two, thinking the purloined pineapple was the start of a sibling conflict that escalated to the point of violence. That’s why he hints that the “fight” started there and her body was somehow transported to the basement. The problem with this theory is that it leaves out accounting for the sexual molestation, so Spitz just dismisses it as, “There was no molestation.” Instead he has to account for the microscopic wood fibers as secondary transfer.

    Another “expert” whose opinion Kolar bought was Dr. Lucy. Before his account of her opinion, most were still debating whether the head blow or the strangulation came first. Once her supposed extended timeframe between the two was reported, it seems it has been accepted by most as fact. (I don’t -- Kolar was too vague about how that timeframe was determined when asked about it, and it conflicts with what the medical examiner described in the AR.)

    UKGuy has made the connection of two statements in the interviews about blood in JonBenet’s room and unconfirmed statements about “playing doctor” with where it all started -- although I’m not quite sure how his theory plays out from there other than BDI All, even an attempt at staging the CS.

    There is no “commercial and legal conspiracy to prevent what actually happened the night JonBenet was killed from becoming public knowledge.” It’s just that no one knows with certainty and we all have opinions. It’s what we chose to accept and weave into our theories that influences the outcome.
     
  17. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, thanks OTG. The diameter of a baseball knob is 2" in diameter (for adults), according to the graphic below. Notice how the handle of the bat measures 1" around. Depending on the curvature of her skull and the angle the bat was sung, perhaps the impact could have occurred with the handle (assuming the bat was held and swung by the barrell, of course)? Just brainstorming.

    http://pad1.whstatic.com/images/thu...28px-Make-a-Baseball-Bat-Step-6-Version-3.jpg
     
  18. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    Nothing wrong with brainstorming, my friend -- only way we can arrive at more informed opinions. I wouldn't dismiss your thought about the diameter of a bat's handle. It's on the upper end of what I think might be the correct diameter, but I left a large + or - range to allow for my not knowing the exact curvature of the skull (which varies) at the exact location of the depressed fracture. What makes me doubt the bat handle more is the physics (?) of it being capable of causing the amount of damage that was done to JonBenet's skull. If a bat is held by the barrel and swung, all the potential force is dampened by the weight of the bat being held in the assailant's hands.That's one of the same reasons (of two) that I don't think it was the knob of a bat either.

    I know I mentioned at one time I should write something about "sweet spots," but I never did get around to it. Any object used to strike something (bat, tennis racquet, night stick, hammer, section of pipe) has (depending on where it is gripped) an area that produces the most force. It is related to (but not exactly the same as) the "center of percussion." A baseball player would tell you it's where the ball hits the bat resulting in their feeling the least amount of vibration in their hands. Actually, it is where there is equal force on either side of the striking point so there is equal distribution of the vibration.

    Imagine hitting the ball with a bat so that the ball hits near the end of the bat. The vibration in your hands would be in a forward motion because there is more force on that side of the ball. If OTOH you hit the ball closer to the handle, the vibration would be toward the back of your hands because the larger amount of force would be on the opposite end of the bat (opposite end from the knob). A batter tries to hit the ball right there in that "sweet spot" between the ends so he has the most amount of force behind it with the least amount of force wasted in vibration.

    Can you imagine a baseball player going up to the plate and holding the bat by the barrel and swinging the handle at the ball. Wouldn't see many home runs that way even if it was Babe Ruth swinging the bat.

    If you play tennis, imagine hitting the ball either too high or to low on the racquet. You'd have the same effect there (although not as noticeable as in baseball).

    A hammer is designed so that if you hold it in the center of the handle, all the weight (force) is concentrated right in the center of the head delivering enough force to drive a nail into wood.

    The only point in all this is to understand the physics behind swinging something with enough force with whatever it was that was used to have caused the amount of damage that was done to JonBenet's skull.


    (Disclaimer: I am not a professional baseball player, tennis player, carpenter, or murderer. :biggrin:)
     
  19. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    ^ Haha, thanks OTG. Yeah that wound is very perplexing to me -- the fact that it created such damage to the skull, but didn't bleed. I'm always trying to determine what could have created that mysterious wound and how, and I always come to sources that would provide either too much force or too little force, for such a peculiar injury. I think you're right in that the handle wouldn't have provided sufficient force.
     
  20. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    (rsbm)
    From Forensic Pathology: Principles and Practice, by David Dolinak, Evan Matshes, Emma O. Lew:

    Although one would expect that the application of significant force to a child’s head would have definitive external markers of injury, this is simply not always the case. Perhaps as a result of increased water-binding polysaccharides and glycoproteins in young skin, the skin and subcutaneous tissues are more resilient to impact, making it entirely possible that a significant blow imparted on the infant or child’s head may leave no external soft tissue evidence of injury.

     

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