JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

UKGuy

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The torch was not part of the original crime scene at 5:52am. Someone placed it there intentionally, wiped of all prints sometime in the later morning hours.


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Cottonstar,
Why should the timing matter? Who thinks Burke wiped the flashlight clean and dumped it in the kithchen?

Apparently Patsy never moved far from her location once the first officer and friends arrived, she was under their eyeballs, only JR had freedom of movement.

JR has slightly more knowledge of the crime-scene than he should actually have for someone who took a sleeping aid, slept well, and awoke to find his daughter kidnapped.

My money is on JR tweaking the crime-scene all morning at every opportunity, probably even relocating JonBenet from the crawl space to the wine-cellar, then leaving the flashlight in the kitchen.

If he had been caught with it, he could always say: I was using to look for JonBenet.

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UKGuy

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The physical appearance of the head wound and the long forward fracture just looked to me as if there was a high velocity force from a projectile. After reading about JR forbidding BR from playing hockey, the taped up hockey puck gift and the Stine boy's hockey playing, I imagined BR hitting a puck in the house and it flew into JBR's head. A golf club would make that puck lift in flight and the force of a golf swing would give it the velocity and force I imagine it would take to fracture the skull and cause the depressed injury.

But, then the whole Stine house visit amnesia puzzled me. Who stands at the door in the cold chatting after delivering gifts for 15 minutes, never going in to the house. JBR and JR stayed in the car? PR didn't think JBR went in to the house. What? It was all too weird. Then the whole living with the Stines and the Stines moving to Atlanta with the Ramseys. Something was strange there and I can't put my finger on it.

But, ST said no it was the flashlight and he was there, I was not. He knows how well the flashlight fit and I take his word over my imagination.

TeaTime,
I reckon BlueCrab thought the same about the Stine visit. He suggested DS returned back to the Ramsey house then bicycled back home early morning.

That theory ties in with later developments in the Stine-Ramsey relationship, not to mention Susan Stine answering the Ramsey front door to a First Responder instead of Patsy or John.

The accident scenario whether played out in the Stine or the Ramsey household does not explain why 911 was not called or JR did not rush JonBenet immediately to the nearest hospital by car?

IMO darker forces were at work, both the Stines and the Ramsey's had something to hide, and it was. One anomaly in BlueCrab's theory is why would Susan Stine report the conversation between Burke and DS taking about how JonBenet had been killed, if any of the Stines were involved to any degree?


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Cottonstar

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Cottonstar,
Why should the timing matter? Who thinks Burke wiped the flashlight clean and dumped it in the kithchen?

Apparently Patsy never moved far from her location once the first officer and friends arrived, she was under their eyeballs, only JR had freedom of movement.

JR has slightly more knowledge of the crime-scene than he should actually have for someone who took a sleeping aid, slept well, and awoke to find his daughter kidnapped.

My money is on JR tweaking the crime-scene all morning at every opportunity, probably even relocating JonBenet from the crawl space to the wine-cellar, then leaving the flashlight in the kitchen.

If he had been caught with it, he could always say: I was using to look for JonBenet.

.

The timing is significant because I believe it shows JR’s path of skulduggery in the morning. Much like him controlling the discovery of Patsy’s notepad. In an innocent kidnapping scenario the ransom note, and flashlight should/would have numerous fingerprints/smudges on both of those items. They don’t. Why? Obviously, JR/PR are attempting to distance themselves from those key pieces of evidence. The fact that the flashlight and the batteries had been wiped completely rules out any intruder scenario imo. An intruder wouldn’t wipe down any prints on the light, because he would have wanted the existing prints to still be on the torch to point away from him. If the Intruder wasn’t wearing gloves at the time he struck JB head, he simply would have taken the torch with him.


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Cottonstar

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I had an e-mail conversation with the lead detective on this case (ST) and asked about the head wound because I suspected a hockey puck that ricocheted around after being struck. He stated to me that the weapon was, in fact, the flashlight - it was a perfect fit to the wound.

Why did I suspect a golf club/hockey puck? Because Stine's boy played hockey, HR forbid BR from playing it or owning a hockey stick. But, Stine Boy gave an old taped-up puck to BR and it was just too odd of a detail that was addressed in the parents' book.

I had always thought that the head wound happened at the Stine's because that whole visit was shrouded in mystery and the fact that the Stines weren't called to the house in the morning, but rather left for their own vacation. Yes, I am well aware of the professionals opinions about the pineapple, etc. and the estimated time of death, but played with the notion that the head wound did not cause immediate unconsciousness, there was swelling and hence the pineapple and tea to reduce swelling. Then add the lies about the events after getting home, the fuzzy timeline, the whole web of deception and my amateur detective brain came up with 'injured at the Stines, with a hockey puck and the stick which BR was forbidden to touch". I've been over that theory for years.

But, I would have been willing to bet that PR called Nedra that night and it was she that dictated the RN and told PR about the tea and pineapple. I do not for a second believe that JBR went straight to bed when they got home. I think she was up and being fed tea and pineapple by momma to get the swelling down. The note is soo Nedra.

I do not think anything of the child BR hitting the child JBR with a play golf club. Kids hit each other all the time.

When did the horrific neck trauma occur, and how?

JB wasn’t asleep when they returned home. Susan Stine stated she saw the family “intact” when they stopped by for 10-15 minutes. The Stines lived 2 minutes by car from the Ramseys.


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archieil

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Cleaning of the flashlight is working well with an idea the intruder had multiple sclerosis.

The robber was prepared for a situation he could forget something on the crime scene.

It could be experience or some known sickness of his.
 

TeaTime

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Cleaning of the flashlight is working well with an idea the intruder had multiple sclerosis.

The robber was prepared for a situation he could forget something on the crime scene.

It could be experience or some known sickness of his.

I saw a movie in which the seasoned criminal versed the newbie on wiping down the batteries in the flashlight for the very reason that it might get left behind by accident.
 

Cottonstar

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TeaTime,
Sure the head injury could have happened at the Stines, including JonBenet eating pineapple there. So why was the staging such a mess as both parents would know what to do, no telepathy required and Burke, well he seems to have played his allotted role OK?

One unrelated thought on BR: All this talk about BR and his tech job, his degree and retirement fund etc. Makes him appear reasonably intelligent.

Yet on Dr Phil he never came across as any of the above, e.g. he never batted the difficult questions, instead offering his smirking and dumb answers about JonBenet flaunting herself. BR just did not match what JR has claimed about BR.

Maybe I'm biased and have confused BR's coached interview with his real life persona?

.

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UKGuy

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The timing is significant because I believe it shows JR’s path of skulduggery in the morning. Much like him controlling the discovery of Patsy’s notepad. In an innocent kidnapping scenario the ransom note, and flashlight should/would have numerous fingerprints/smudges on both of those items. They don’t. Why? Obviously, JR/PR are attempting to distance themselves from those key pieces of evidence. The fact that the flashlight and the batteries had been wiped completely rules out any intruder scenario imo. An intruder wouldn’t wipe down any prints on the light, because he would have wanted the existing prints to still be on the torch to point away from him. If the Intruder wasn’t wearing gloves at the time he struck JB head, he simply would have taken the torch with him.


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Cottonstar,
Thanks for the photograph of Burke, I've not seen that one before. Sure wiping the flashlight clean is suspicious and points away from an intruder.

I've always thought the case could be JDI as he has far too much to say about aspects he should really know nothing about, e.g. the Samsonite suitcase, he wants to claim he brought it downstairs !

When he was asked about his fibers on JonBenet's crotch and he came out with that disrespecting my relationship with my daughter, etc.

In the interview with Smit where he suggests the intruder left the chair in front of the door, etc, when queried by Smit he says the intruder was a clever guy, i.e. referencing himself.

I think JR rearranged the basement and invented excuses for specific artifacts, so to dilute any sense that there was a prior staging.

Was JR doing this for himself or to stage Burke out of the case? Patsy was no dummy, she would never have staged JonBenet as she was found in the wine-cellar, whats the point, since if the case is PDI, she has simply added more forensic evidence than what was available at the primary crime-scene.

IMO the case is either JDI or BDI?

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otg

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It was 100% that flashlight. She grabbed a piece of pineapple out of her brothers bowl, making him mad, and he hit her with the flashlight fracturing her skull. The parents covered it up to protect him.

He had already hit her with a golf club before, so I don’t see any reason he wouldn’t have grabbed that flashlight on the counter, and hit her while having a tantrum.

The fracture matches perfectly with the end of the flashlight.
The end of the Maglite absolutely does NOT match the depressed fracture. If you'll read the first few pages of this thread, you'll see my reasoning.

Spitz is responsible for misleading everyone into thinking the Maglite was used, simply because he did some experiments and claimed it fit. IT DOESN'T!

Here is his (Spitz's) sketch of the depressed fracture with an insert of the depression made from the end of a Maglite (even it does not match his sketch):

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But that is not at all the actual shape of the depressed fracture. That "hole" was incorrectly described by the ME when he first uncovered it. Here is a sketch made from the photo of the skull:

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That last sketch was made from the autopsy photo here showing the actual shape, which is elliptical -- not rectanglar:

attachment.php



Earlier posts explain everything you see in that last photo.
 

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otg

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One anomaly in BlueCrab's theory is why would Susan Stine report the conversation between Burke and DS taking about how JonBenet had been killed, if any of the Stines were involved to any degree?
Actually, Stine didn't "report" the conversation. Instead, she related it to the mother of one of Burke's friends who went to Atlanta for the funeral. BPD interviewed her (Mary Ann Kaempfer) when she returned from Georgia and found out about the discussion. From Kolar's FF:

Upon returning from Atlanta on January 2, 1997, Kaempfer spoke to fellow parent Susan Stine and was told about a conversation Stine had overheard taking place between Burke and her son, Doug. This was reported to have taken place on the afternoon following the grief counseling session that had been hosted at JonBenét’s school on the morning of Saturday, December 28, 1996.

Stine appeared to Kaempfer to have been disturbed by the conversation and had listened to Burke and Doug talk about how JonBenét had been strangled. Based upon Kaempfer’s statement, it appeared that Stine had over overheard the boys discussing whether or not manual strangulation had been involved in JonBenét’s death.

Stine described the conversation as being “very impersonal,” and it struck her that the discussion about the details of JonBenét’s death was like the boys were “talking about a TV show.” This discourse between Burke and Doug had taken place no more than 2 days following JonBenét’s murder and apparently had such an impact upon Stine that she brought it up in conversation with Mary Kaempfer at the first opportunity.
 

otg

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Cleaning of the flashlight is working well with an idea the intruder had multiple sclerosis.

The robber was prepared for a situation he could forget something on the crime scene.

It could be experience or some known sickness of his.
How so?

I only know of one person who has ever suggested the "intruder" had MS, and you and I both know who that is.
 

UKGuy

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(rsbm)Actually, Stine didn't "report" the conversation. Instead, she related it to the mother of one of Burke's friends who went to Atlanta for the funeral. BPD interviewed her (Mary Ann Kaempfer) when she returned from Georgia and found out about the discussion. From Kolar's FF:

Upon returning from Atlanta on January 2, 1997, Kaempfer spoke to fellow parent Susan Stine and was told about a conversation Stine had overheard taking place between Burke and her son, Doug. This was reported to have taken place on the afternoon following the grief counseling session that had been hosted at JonBenét’s school on the morning of Saturday, December 28, 1996.

Stine appeared to Kaempfer to have been disturbed by the conversation and had listened to Burke and Doug talk about how JonBenét had been strangled. Based upon Kaempfer’s statement, it appeared that Stine had over overheard the boys discussing whether or not manual strangulation had been involved in JonBenét’s death.

Stine described the conversation as being “very impersonal,” and it struck her that the discussion about the details of JonBenét’s death was like the boys were “talking about a TV show.” This discourse between Burke and Doug had taken place no more than 2 days following JonBenét’s murder and apparently had such an impact upon Stine that she brought it up in conversation with Mary Kaempfer at the first opportunity.

otg,
Thanks for the correction. I reckon the suggestion still stands since Susan Stine is telling an outsider that DS and BR are talking alleged shop regarding JonBenet's death?

it appeared that Stine had over overheard the boys discussing whether or not manual strangulation had been involved in JonBenét’s death.
BBM: Now that is telling, especially for boys so young. Why should such a technicality matter, i.e. manual, ligature or suicide?

Did BPD or Hunter ever sanction a News Release stating JonBenet had been strangled, or was it public knowledge?

Like I say in another post if Burke knows the case is not PDI and its not BDI as he knows his own mind, then who does that leave?

.
 

archieil

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How so?

I only know of one person who has ever suggested the "intruder" had MS, and you and I both know who that is.

This one is not a bad idea.

I was using an idea of some mental sickness the killer had.

MS is a possible one.

sorry but I am reducing my time spent here.

I can not be sure what happens in next months but catching me on my e-mail is a better way of getting some answer from me.
 

UKGuy

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otg,
I'm assuming you are right about the head injury not being caused by the flashlight. This might explain why JR is willing to inject it back into the case via Dr Phil?

It will be ironic if Spitz loses his litigation case on the basis of his expert opinion and his favorite theory?

Could JonBenet have been whacked on the head as she lay face down on her bed, thereby bleeding from the nose or ear?

.
 

otg

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Could JonBenet have been whacked on the head as she lay face down on her bed, thereby bleeding from the nose or ear?
Of course that's a possibility, but there was no bleeding from either of her ears (according to the AR). There was dried fluid on her cheek which the ME described as "a pattern of dried saliva and mucous material which does not appear to be hemorrhagic." I think, like his initial (incorrect) impression of the shape of the depressed fracture, he was wrong in his assumption that it was not hemorrhagic. You've seen the photo. What else would account for the color of the dried fluid? Also, he assumed it to be "saliva and mucous material," but bear in mind that he made these observations before he found evidence of the head blow. Here is the part of the AR (External Examination) written just before the above:

"No scalp trauma is identified. The external auditory canals are patent and free of blood. The eyes are green and the pupils equally dilated. The sclerae are white. The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material. The teeth are native and in good repair. The tongue is smooth, pink-tan and granular. No buccal mucosal trauma is seen. The frenulum is intact. There is slight drying artifact of the tip of the of tongue."


Notice there is no evidence of injury inside her mouth but he notices the "tan mucous material" in her nostrils -- yet he doesn't make the connection between that and the dried fluid on her cheek.
 

UKGuy

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(rsbm)Of course that's a possibility, but there was no bleeding from either of her ears (according to the AR). There was dried fluid on her cheek which the ME described as "a pattern of dried saliva and mucous material which does not appear to be hemorrhagic." I think, like his initial (incorrect) impression of the shape of the depressed fracture, he was wrong in his assumption that it was not hemorrhagic. You've seen the photo. What else would account for the color of the dried fluid? Also, he assumed it to be "saliva and mucous material," but bear in mind that he made these observations before he found evidence of the head blow. Here is the part of the AR (External Examination) written just before the above:

"No scalp trauma is identified. The external auditory canals are patent and free of blood. The eyes are green and the pupils equally dilated. The sclerae are white. The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material. The teeth are native and in good repair. The tongue is smooth, pink-tan and granular. No buccal mucosal trauma is seen. The frenulum is intact. There is slight drying artifact of the tip of the of tongue."


Notice there is no evidence of injury inside her mouth but he notices the "tan mucous material" in her nostrils -- yet he doesn't make the connection between that and the dried fluid on her cheek.

otg,
You've seen the photo. What else would account for the color of the dried fluid?
I'm with you on this one, it looks hemorrhagic to me. It seems curious that in interview investigators quiz Patsy about JonBenet having nosebleeds because there is a bloodstain on the pillow, then disregard this detail in all consequent theories?

The same thing plays out with JonBenet bleeding internally, i.e. caused by the paintbrush, finger, or other instrument : silence.

Notice there is no evidence of injury inside her mouth but he notices the "tan mucous material" in her nostrils -- yet he doesn't make the connection between that and the dried fluid on her cheek.
ITA. I wonder if Coroner Meyer was really playing the evidence down, smoothing it out, just in case a court appearance was required or worse, he had his instructions?

The bottom line is, there were only three people in the house that night, with no evidence of an intruder, so one of them killed JonBenet.

Given the crime-scene sequencing, e.g. someone moved JonBenet from her bed to the basement and applied the ligature and paintbrush, then I'm assuming this happened after she was whacked on the head, hence my query about her being whacked on her bed?

From memory JonBenet's blood was found on the pink barbie nightgown, her underwear, the white blanket and the pillow in her bedroom?

Do all these bloodstains originate from the same source, if some are hemorrhagic will the blood sample not differ from those that arise from her genital injury?

Although many assume the wine-cellar has been staged it appears to me that a lot of the forensic evidence has simply been glossed over. Whether thats because the investigators thought they had lost the case or for darker reasons, who knows?


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Tadpole12

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The digital penetration story begins with LA,
where does the paintbrush, as the object,
where does that story originate?
 

UKGuy

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The digital penetration story begins with LA,
where does the paintbrush, as the object,
where does that story originate?

Tadpole12,

Partially the forums, theories in books etc. There is nothing backing up a genital assault using the paintbrush.

The missing piece of paintbrush has generated speculation, i.e. was it used to assault JonBenet?

Put another way : would any other Ramsey's finger be sufficient to cause gential bleeding?

Or is the more likely cause the paintbrush, in an attempt at staging a sexual assault?

.
 

Eadfrith

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The physical appearance of the head wound and the long forward fracture just looked to me as if there was a high velocity force from a projectile. After reading about JR forbidding BR from playing hockey, the taped up hockey puck gift and the Stine boy's hockey playing, I imagined BR hitting a puck in the house and it flew into JBR's head. A golf club would make that puck lift in flight and the force of a golf swing would give it the velocity and force I imagine it would take to fracture the skull and cause the depressed injury.
Did they own Hockey sticks? I'd say a hockey stick makes a better weapon than a puck
 

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