JR's profile

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by madeleine, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I always thought that if RDI it was probably JR or BR who did it.
    But I always admit I can be wrong so I was thinking lately,hey maybe I am wrong,what if indeed PDI.
    If PDI,I still am convinced that this wasn't just about bedwetting but about something more serious (maybe MSBP,severe depression,attention seeking/rage/jealousy,etc).

    Now one of the reasons I lean towards JDI (possible prior abuse is another strong one) is JR's behaviour.I always had this strong gut feeling that he is LYING.He is also a very smart man,I don't think anyone disagrees.Also way too calm and collected.And very cautious when answering questions.

    One of my JDI theories even implies that part of his staging only meant to fool PR,that she didn't even knew the whole truth,that it was more important to him to lie to HER than lying to the cops.

    What if it's the other way around though?
    What if he didn't even have a clue?
    He DOES have a soft side,especially when talking about JB,he seems to be genuine when saying he really loved her (or maybe he's just a sick manipulative pervert and I am a fool).
    Is it REALLY possible that HE was the one fooled?
    He had no problem calling the cops over (it was HER who called the friends).Maybe he did indeed want to leave town outta fear at first,wanting to protect his family. (these are two things that maybe a guilty person wouldn't do?dunno)

    I still can't believe that a father who already lost one daughter and suffered so much ( I DO believe he was devastated after Beth died) would forgive a crazy psycho wife and would let her raise his remaining son.That's why I'm thinking,maybe he never knew what she really did?Maybe he only suspected but denied it(it's sometimes easier to live in denial)?

    Dunno,just some thoughts.....I am no profiler so maybe I am wrong in how I feel about him?Maybe I am "reading" him wrong?
     
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  3. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Tough to say, maddy. It may be one of those things. I know that if you followed every gut feeling nothing would ever get done, but sometimes those feelings are there for a reason.
     
  4. GingBreade

    GingBreade New Member

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    OMG Thank You so much for even questioning this. My problem right now is thinking about the dates that happened...Elizabeth was killed in 1992...Patsy was diagnosed in 1993. I just think that he lost his mind when his daughter died and then his wife was diagnosed with basically a death sentence. All his stress at work...the guy DETACHED. I think he just turned into something he never was. Did he kill JB? No. But he was there..before or during I don't think so but he sure was after. He's no dummy...making Patsy call 911. He knows those calls are recorded. He didn't kill JB but he knows what happened. He knows what the hell happened and so does Burke!
     
  5. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    dunno if he just detached himself from everything that can cause pain or something but there is something else I've noticed.the way he behaves and talks in that tv interview for that religious channel (sorry,dunno where I have the link to it now). he really seems to have lost it.he talks like a fanatic.I've always wondered whether they just used all the religious stuff as an excuse or not but MAYBE this was his only way to cope with Beth's death.and MAYBE if PDI it was easier for him to live in denial and think that it is indeed up to God to judge and forgive and punish?yeah I guess this would make him a coward but it would explain somehow his behavior,dunno.not every person is tough enough to face the truth and deal with the consequences...
     
  6. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    If memory serves, didn't his mother also pass away right around that time? Seems like all the adult women in his life were dying.
     
  7. smurf86

    smurf86 Est. 1986 Dragon apprentice

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    Dunno if this is the right place but as the thread is about JR hear goes:

    In a telephone conversation with Det. Steve Thomas, Melinda Ramsey's current boyfriend Long i think his surname was, told Det Thomas that JR had told him that he had found Jonbenets body at 11a.m. some 2 hours before he "found" her with Fleet White.
    When Det Thomas aske if this was Eastern or Mountain time Long replied well i assume it's his(JRs) 11a.m. so that would be Mountain. Any know what became of this??
     
  8. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I recall that comment also. Like so much in this case, LE dropped the ball. Nothing more was made of the comment. Yes, it could be a different time zone, but JR lived in Boulder- why would he "translate" that into another time zone? Unless...he needed to "backtrack" his comments to make it SEEM like that is what he did. The fact is that JR was unaccounted for between 10 am and noon on Dec.26, according to erroneously stated that she thought he "went to get his ail". The thing is- WHY would a father waiting for kidnappers to call leave the house for ANY reason, let alone to get his mail???
    Of course, we do know the Rs were not expecting that call anyway, but the mail was delivered through a mail slot in the front door of the R home. They NEVER needed to go anywhere to get it.
     
  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    madeleine,
    PDI, JDI, BDI? Sometimes things look simpler when you take two steps back.

    If JonBenet's death was an accident staged to look like an abduction it could be any Ramsey that did it.

    In this scenario PDI really does go to the top of the suspect list.

    BDI , well maybe, with Mom and Dad covering for him, of the three suspects he is the weakest IMO, his age does not fit the profile of JonBenet's injuries.

    JDI possibly, after an accident, maybe, but why no call to 911 for medical assistance, whats to hide, a family that could afford to purchase their local medical practise?

    So in a conventional domestic homicide involving a child either of the parents or both are usually the main suspects.

    But JonBenet's death has an added component that differentiates it from thos other cases. She was sexually molested just prior to her death, this was likely to be the factor that led to her death, and the need to stage an abduction, otherwise no abuse would surely have allowed 911 to have been called for medical assistance?

    With Burke relocated to Fleet White's house, John Ramsey could not have known what would become of him, since he was out of his immediate control, never mind the possibility of John and Patsy being arrested at any point.

    After engineering JonBenet's discovery John and Patsy intended leaving ASAP for Atlanta, phoning such intructions to his pilot. This was part of John's master plan, as was relocating Burke. So in the event JonBenet had not been discovered and the police left the house to search locally, I reckon John and Patsy would have flown interstate to Atlanta, leaving JonBenet to decompose and Burke with Fleet White. Likely to follow on another flight as quickly as could be arranged.

    John Ramsey's behaviour towards Burke suggests Burke did not assault JonBenet's, otherwise why leave Burke alone and vulnerable to an impulsive emotional confession, in the absence of his parents?

    So it looks like it is PDI or JDI, and although it could be PDI most of the evidence appears to suggest JDI, due to the circumstances surrounding JonBenet's death and her highly sexualised short life. IMO, it looks like this is a classic sexually motivated homicide staged to look like something else.

    The other possibility is a PDI that occurs after another person molests JonBenet, and this person then hides as much as possible of this both from Patsy and the police by invoking the wine-cellar staging complete with a version of events about the previous nights sequence of events. Which we know are contradicted both by Burke and the Pineapple.

    That Patsy was ignorant about the location of the size-12's suggests John did not share this information with her, why so?


    So in order of likelyhood , for me, its JDI, PDI, JDI+PDI, BDI.


    .
     
  10. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    excellent point,didn't think of it.

    I always thought that BDI is the only thing that really explains the parents weird behavior,them sticking together (statistics show in such cases they usually break up,the guilt,it's your fault,no,your fault,etc)

    But you are totally right,if BDI,they wouldn't have sent him(exposed) over to the Whites .

    And IMO the staging would have been less complicated and totally different if BDI and they covered for him.

    Guess BDI just dropped a few places down my scenarios list,thanks.
     
  11. Ottavi

    Ottavi New Member

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    That's a very good point, because for all the suggestions that have been made about the sexual assault being part of the staging, the reality is that the sexual assault was not emphasised at all, she was redressed and wiped, the sexual assault was in fact hidden.
     
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Ottavi,
    Precisely so. This along with other Ramsey behaviour, and their fake version of events all combine to suggest a staged crime-scene.

    This does not rule out PDI, but since fibers from John's shirt were found on her genital area, it appears he was the one who wiped her down?

    Speculating, it seems it must have been Patsy's idea to apply the ligature as a garrote. I cannot see John telling Patsy to do this in the context of sexual abuse, not unless she was a co-conspirator e.g. did JonBenet complain to Patsy, who was met with a volent response, leading to either a head injury or throat compression. Not intended to be mortal, but eventually led to her death.


    I have the impression JonBenet was cleaned up somewhere upstairs, then a discussion of what was to be done followed. Either JonBenet was staged say in her bedroom as a victim of a sexual predator or/and this was later re-staged to become the wine-cellar abduction scenario?

    .
     
  13. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    madeleine,
    Sure, its the little things in this case that make it interesting. Once you recognize that John Ramsey's behaviour that fateful morning is not random or reactive, you can make inferences such as the one about: why send Burke to the White's, what is all that about?

    Another one is why bother wiping down JonBenet, whats all that about, its certainly nothing to do with the concept of undoing, since JonBenet's own mother callously asphyxiated her with the garrote. Consider the image mother wishes for a nice pristine, clean image of JonBenet, just as everyone remembers her, so she attaches a garrote formed from the paintbrush handle, used to evoke images in oil, around JonBenet's neck!

    The case against Burke is weak, its main purpose is to explain away the contradictory evidence, but if you take into account John's behaviour towards Burke, and some of Burke's own remarks e.g. he saw JonBenet walk into the house. This suggests to me that John and Patsy Ramsey had a game plan that morning, one part of was to relocate Burke, then move on to the next stage. Phoning the friends over was phase 2 of the diversion tactics. When John went missing that morning he was probably away checking for loose ends, moving evidence around, generally messing up the crime-scene. Consider JonBenet's photographs found down in the basement, who put them there and why? Would these not be better placed in John Ramsey's top bedroom dresser? After all he is the loving father who funds her sexualization via the pageants unthinkingly.


    .
     
  14. smurf86

    smurf86 Est. 1986 Dragon apprentice

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    Thats a good point, i think if she was staged in her room its possible that after they had written the RN moved JBR to the cellar to make the bungled kidnap more plausible.
    It could also be a possibility that JR removed burke to stop him contradicting what they eventually told the police i.e. she` was sleeping and was carried to bed(burke told officials she was awake) and that he was asleep when the 911 took place( burkes voice is apparently heard on said 911 tape).
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    smurf86,
    IMO, there was a prior staging, the remainder of which is likely to be the pink nightgown and barbie doll, or alternatively which was intended to replace the gap-top, why so?

    Well if this was done then there would be no requirement for such an elaborate fake version of events, since she is found in her bed clothes then presto, she must have been abducted from her bed.

    So it looks like the fake version of events was invoked to explain away part of a prior staging, a part that has JonBenet still wearing her gap-top, e.g. dead in bed in her gap-top? Oh we have to tell everyone we just put her to bed like that!

    Whichever way you spin it, JonBenet was likely in her day clothes when assaulted.

    Another inference that you can draw from the staged crime-scene is that since it was not completed then the wine-cellar scenario must have been a real last minute decision?


    The counter argument is that the pink nightgown represents JonBenet's original bed clothes and its the gap-top that is replacing it, so why mess up all your staging big time, and leave it for the police to find?

    Answer: It was really last minute stuff, right down to the wire, when stuff simply had to be hidden, just dumped out of sight, and hey if they find JonBenet, then we are caught, so does it matter if they find the barbie doll and nightgown?

    If you consider the restraints found on JonBenet and ask, why and when, then time constraints seem the logical reason?

    So all in all I reckon 30 minutes at most was devoted to the wine-cellar staging?



    .
     
  16. Nuisanceposter

    Nuisanceposter Remembering Little Miss Christmas

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    I only have one problem with a JDI scenario where PR is not in on it with him from the get-go:

    I don't believe that JR would have known about the size 12 bloomies bought for Jenny, wrapped and ready to send, in the basement (or wherever - the only place we can be sure they weren't kept was in JonBenet's underwear drawer.)

    JR was pretty much oblivious to what was going on around him in his own house if it wasn't directly affecting him - more or less biting him in the butt. He left things like buying gifts for Patsy's niece and getting them wrapped and ready to mail up to Patsy.

    I'm not even sure he would have known there were alternate bloomies, although not in JonBenet's size, brand-new and still in the package...much less where to find them.

    All of that sounds like Patsy's hand in the mix. I'd be willing to bet that all JR knew was that JonBenet needed to be dressed in different clothes before they called 911 and a half-dozen friends over.

    I can see JR using his shirt to wipe JonBenet's body off, but then I gotta think he left the fetching of new bloomies and dressing of JonBenet in them plus long underwear up to Patsy. Otherwise his DNA would be on her clothes and not Patsy's.

    Just my opinion.
     
  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Nuisanceposter,
    We cannot be certain John did not know about the size-12's. Patsy may have told him they were going to Atlanta with them. He may have come across them when preloading the plane with stuff? Patsy may have told him where they were whilst she went and prepared a draft of the ransom note.

    In lots of cases there is always something that seems inexplicable and in the context of a staging placing those size-12's onto JonBenet, is such an instance. It might simply be one of those irrational things that occur in the execution of a crime.

    For us its a very large red flag, we all know it invalidates the wine-cellar crime-scene, when added to the pineapple evidence, it blows a hole in the Ramsey defense that it was IDI.

    So whether it was Patsy or John, IMO, is not something to get hung upon, since we can all accept the parents were involved in the wine-cellar staging.

    Patsy's story about the size-12's is at odds with the actual evidence, so if she re-dressed JonBenet, why did she not place the remaining size-12's into her underwear drawer?

    Another interpretation is that Patsy was aware that JonBenet had been sexually assaulted and was complicit in the crime-scene staging, and she did indeed redress JonBenet, but when it came to her Atlanta Interview she simply attempted to lie her way out of the situation, hoping to distance herself from the big mistake?


    IMO Someone sexually assaulted JonBenet, then there was an altercation involving JonBenet, which led to JonBenet being whacked on the head and on her body. This in turn led to some kind of initial staging e.g. JonBenet being relocated to her own bed? Later this was revised to JonBenet being relocated to the wine-cellar. The wine-cellar move must surely be predicated upon the assumption of abduction, and seems to have been a very last minute decision, given the wine-cellar was not completed.

    So it appears that JDI+PDI is the most realistic scenario. If you reckon its PDI, then why would John take the risk of leaving his fibers on JonBenet's genitals. Helping Patsy is one thing, but leaving a forensic trail that implies culpability, is something else.

    It does look like the staging was done in stages, and not as part of some grand staging plan, it was more evolution than revolution. The unfinished aspects of the staging and the crudeness of some features e.g. restraints, along with the size-12's suggests not a great deal of thought was applied.


    How do you know John's touch-dna is not all over JonBenet's clothing, including her size-12's?



    .
     
  18. Nuisanceposter

    Nuisanceposter Remembering Little Miss Christmas

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    I agree. I'm assuming he didn't know about them, but we don't know that for certain. JR taking the time to concern himself with the location of gifts for Patsy's family seems out of character for him - IMO - but that doesn't mean that's all there is to it. There are always variables to consider.

    And there's a perfectly viable variable right there.

    I was just thinking: if it was December 26th, the morning after Christmas, and that package of bloomies for Jenny was in the Rs basement (or wherever)...when were the Rs supposed to send that package off? Perhaps they intended to take them with them and see to its delivery while on the second Christmas celebration with JRs older kids.

    That would pretty much explain it for me, thanks.

    Hmmm. That would explain that. I can't believe I hadn't ever thought of that before.

    The size 12 bloomies are extremely curious. There are so many questions that one aspect of the staging calls up.

    I've followed the investigation of JonBenet Ramsey's murder since I first heard about it on tv in Dec. of 1996. I watched that CNN interview with John and Patsy where she's doped to the rafters and they're "not angry" and "just want to move on" the day it aired, a week after the murder. I actually thought DA Hunter was going to do something as I watched the "umbrella of suspicion" press farce. I held my breath as I waited to hear the verdict of the Grand Jury, and gasped in disappointment when I did hear. I read everything I could find whether on a list for a new release from the library (DOI) or scanning tabloid headlines at the check-out to see if it was worth the cover price to read the full article undisturbed.

    And in all of that time, there was basically NOTHING about the size 12s. I didn't find out all about those until I made my way to WS et al after finally getting internet (dial-up back then, ha.) Most people out there who haven't done the level of studying people here do do not know about the size 12s at all.

    There is no way an intruder would have known where those bloomies were in order to have dressed her in them, and no reason to believe an intruder who had just sexually assaulted and strangled a child in her own home would risk staying around long enough to redress the dead child, in any size bloomies. IDI fails right here. Those underwear were not in the drawer - JonBenet could not have dressed herself in them. Someone who knew they were there put them on her, and the only people who have known they were there were the Rs.

    Agreed. There's definite evidence of both, just on fiber evidence alone. I also think both were involved in writing the RN, but the handwriting analysis shows only one person cannot be excluded as the author - Patsy.

    She's a liar.

    Like the pineapple left on the table, I assume that detail was overlooked and then got lost in the grand overall staging scheme.

    Unfortunately, due to Patsy being said liar, we'll never know.

    Yep, that pretty much sums up what I suspect. IMO, there is NO WAY that Patsy did not know JonBenet was being sexually abused.

    All of the health records from both pediatrician and school being vaulted and never made public - why?

    All of the Monday visits to the school nurse JonBenet made in the weeks preceding her murder - why?

    The three calls to Dr. Beuf in one evening, within about an hour time frame, days before the murder, and neither Patsy nor the dr's office can remember what those three calls were about - why?

    The toilet regression, so bad JonBenet not only wet but soiled herself, to the point of suffering infections. Patsy refusing to acknowledge it other than to let her wet/soil herself and then clean her off and wait for it to magically clear up on its own. I think part of that is due to the pressure Patsy put on JonBenet to live a pageant winner lifestyle, but there's obviously more to it when the autopsy says there is evidence of chronic abuse in an area no six year old girl should have to even know exists. Why?

    Patsy made that weird comment about how she knew JR wasn't molesting JonBenet while she was recovering from cancer because her mother Nedra Paugh was right there - and then there's the weird comment Nedra herself made about JonBenet having been "a little bit molested."

    What? Why was Patsy referencing the worry that JR might molest JonBenet in the first place? Where did that even come from, and why was that so in the front of her mind that it spilled out of her mouth before she realized how such a statement could be interpreted?

    Why would a grandmother downplay the molestation her six year old granddaughter suffered, whether it was a one time event on the night the child was murdered or as an event ongoing in the child's life prior to the murder, in any way at all?

    I'm not sure Patsy wasn't the abuser.


    I agree completely. My theory is basically the same: someone was in the act of abusing JonBenet and it somehow got out of control, resulting in JonBenet being mortally wounded by the skull fracture. Whoever was there at the moment of impact MUST have heard her skull fracture, as bad as the damage was...and if they had the nerve to check her scalp for bleeding/swelling/bruising, they may have run their fingers over the spot and felt how bad the damage was. I can hardly stand to look at the autopsy pics.

    Some say JonBenet may have been immediately unconscious going into comatose, some say she may have experienced seizures or convulsions from the injury to the brain, but I think the person who inflicted the injury would know it was bad real bad just by hearing the sound of bone being crushed on impact.

    The blood on her pillow, prompting detectives to question Patsy about night time nosebleeds, seems to indicate an initial yet aborted scene for staging. They needed to get her farther away from the family than in her bed, to reinforce the kidnapping scenario, so the wine cellar room was the best choice, being the farthest away from the rest of the fam they could JonBenet without putting her outside - and they can't risk that. Not only might they been seen or leave evidence, but JonBenet has GOT to be picture perfect for her funeral so Patsy can display her in an open casket.

    Yes, I guarantee you that last bit was on Patsy's mind, even as they staged the wine cellar scene. I am believer in the "Patsy loved being the mother of a murdered beauty queen" angle.

    I think she really did love it. She called JonBenet "America's Princess" and I felt sad for JonBenet - the former Little Miss Christmas was now America's Princess in Death. I saw with great dismay that the very same title, "America's Princess", was given to Caylee Anthony when the world learned of her name and fate. I had to stop and smile to myself for a second, wondering how that would have gone over with Patsy, had she still been alive to see it.

    Back on track, I agree, the wine cellar scene was the last minute option and while it appears as though they threw everything they had into it, they overlooked this and left out that here and there, indicating it was only as complete as they could get it in the time frame they felt they had.

    Good question. I don't know. It seems to me as though JR tried as hard as possible to leave as much up to Patsy as he could - she wrote the RN, she supposedly woke up first and made the initial discovery of the RN/JonBenet gone, she made the 911 call, and, if other evidence such as fiber evidence is proof, she tied the ligature on JonBenet's neck, put the tape over JonBenet's face, and she dressed JonBenet in the size 12s and long johns.

    This is where I really have to wonder what JR's involvement is. There is no question in my mind that he was involved from well before Patsy called 911 - he never tried to stop her from calling people despite having read the warnings that JB will be beheaded if they do, and he had no argument about sending Burke out of the R house, as if he was very aware there was no kidnapper and no reason to fear for the safety of either Burke or JonBenet.

    But what exactly is his involvement? Why would he choose to help Patsy cover up abuse that took the life of a second daughter of his, after his deep grief over the loss of the first, Beth...if he had no involvement in the abuse or the event that caused the skull fracture that brought on the need to stage a crime scene so it didn't look like death by abuse?

    This is where I'm not sure that JR wasn't the abuser.

    This would be where Patsy is writing the RN and JR doing who knows what, most likely staging the crime scene. That makes perfect sense. I don't know why, but I've always had this mental image of John and Patsy both working on the RN together from start to finish, and that probably wasn't the case at all.

    Dude. Now that you ask, I don't know that it isn't. That's a really good point. We have so much information on this case (yet frustratingly, not enough) that I didn't consider that a fact like that might have been held back, even at this date. After all, look at how long it took before I found out about the size 12s.

    Really excellent stuff. I feel like I've progressed my personal theory in this conversation, filled in some small holes that needed going over. Thank you.
     
  19. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    if RDI I can totally understand why the RN was written,makes sense
    I can totally guess why JB's body was wiped off/cleaned
    I can totally guess why she needed to be redressed
    I can also totally understand why she was placed in the wine-cellar

    I can find a reasonable explanation for each of these actions

    what always bothered me though (and at the same time fascinated me and made me come back to this case) is that freaking garrote .murder weapon or part of the staging,doesn't matter to me,it screams SICK mind to me.

    IF it was just part of the staging,why this brutal detail added?the RN and everything else would have been enough.why use PR's brush anyway?after it was used to create art with.it's sick.
    IF it was the murder weapon then the murder is sicker than most of us believe as well.
    IF it was a sex game gone wrong,why leave it there on her neck in the first place?

    tons of questions and none of the answers I come up with FIT any of my theories.

    IMO the minute I (or anyone else) will figure this out maybe everything will make sense.just MOO.

    every theory I come up with gets blocked by this detail which drives me nuts cause I don't get it.it's not like a normal person thinks of such a staging,doesn't matter how panicked.you just don't think of doing THAT IMO.yes,write a RN,clean the body,I get it.

    what's with the garrote I wanna know cause no matter how innocent some wanna make it sound (ah it was at hand,they wanted it to look like an intruder did it,was just another part of a staging,etc) it's SICK and only a SICK person would think(add) of it IMO.
     
  20. twinkiesmom

    twinkiesmom New Member

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    Haven't you heard the choruses of "a parent would never do that"? The "that" is always the garotte.
     
  21. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I know that it's what IDI's scream,a parent would never do THAT.but that's just a silly excuse.parents do lots of ugly horrible things.but there's always a reason behind it,right?some are just abusive,some are sick,some are evil.
    writing a RN to cover your @ss,I get that,stage a crime scene,I get that.But the garrote thing...it just makes me pretty sure that someone who would do that is sick in the head and I would like to understand what was in that person/s mind,why he/she chose THAT,something so..........brutal and horrible.changing and redressing the child,writing the RN don't require such a twisted mind like putting that rope around the dead childs neck.
     

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