Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval

[james83]

Defence friendly assessors?, well i never, honestly what an amazing ability to be able to tell 2 people are defence friendly when they've barely said a word between them for the whole trial, some people are beyond talented it seems.

 

[Hope4More]

~snipped~

Previous overreactions to noises didn't include OP killing anyone, or anyone reporting a woman screaming (just before a woman was shot to death). Personally, I think his previous reactions to noises will go against him, not for him. He told Sam Taylor when he heard a noise, and he didn't go charging off with a gun and shoot into a closed door, or wherever he perceived the noise to be coming from. It was just on this single occasion that he didn't react as he normally did. The question is why.

I think you have a good point about OP's overreaction to night noises. He does have quite a history of jumping to the intruder conclusion and being prepared to go off half cocked.... but you're right, he never actually shot at his imaginary intruders before. What is the difference?

Still think rage is the answer. Rage from an argument with Reeva that carried over to his perception of and response to an "intruder."

His story of wanting /acting to protect Reeva is a lie, imo, but a lie as much as anything to himself. He can rationalize accidentally killing Reeva if he can pretend to himself that wanting to protect her made him shoot so recklessly, rather than a rage at her so strong he lost all self control and shot recklessly. JMO.

 

[fox1lady]

Think I may have misunderstood every weekday??? I always think of that as Mon to Friday.

You'd think they'd want to see what he's like around 2 and 3 in the morning wouldn't considering that is the time he went combat in that bathroom!

 

[Whole Truth]

Hello everyone.

My first ever post although I have been lurking since the bail hearing....and it's a question for those more enlightened than me.

Regarding the psychological assessment, did the Defence argue so vociferously against it because they know something detrimental to their case?

I assume this because otherwise, if OP is found to have a mental health issue which suggests diminished responsibility then presumably the trial would be halted and in theory he could walk free. This surely would suit them?!

Thank you for your time :blushing:

 

[MsMarple]

~snipped~

Previous overreactions to noises didn't include OP killing anyone, or anyone reporting a woman screaming (just before a woman was shot to death). Personally, I think his previous reactions to noises will go against him, not for him. He told Sam Taylor when he heard a noise, and he didn't go charging off with a gun and shoot into a closed door, or wherever he perceived the noise to be coming from. It was just on this single occasion that he didn't react as he normally did. The question is why.

Apart from S. Taylor's testimony, which described behavior opposite to OP's reaction the night he shot Reeva, all they have to work with is self-reporting by OP. Even Dr. V's testimony came mostly from OP himself and she admitted that he may lied about some of it.

I wonder what methods the psych doctors will use to sort it all out. I know they'll have access to court testimony but will they do any fact-checking apart from testimony? For example, the 2009 boating accident that was reported to have occurred at 10 pm. OP testified the sun was in his eyes but in 2009 he claimed the pier was submerged. And it's a pity they won't know about things like the dog-shooting incident - unless of course he tells them.

And how can they tell if his self-reported night terrors of being unable to sleep, smelling blood, hiding in cupboards, etc. are true without observing him while he sleeps? I suppose his sister could verify being called in the middle of the night to 'comfort' OP but that doesn't establish a persistent pattern.

I guess I'll just have to trust that the doctors' training and experience will put all the pieces together. I'm mostly interested in how they will determine how and where OP's current mental state reflects back to the night he shot Reeva. I don't envy their job but oh, would I love to be a fly on the wall! Maybe we'll get lucky and someone on the support staff will leak a little info.

MOO

 

[Carmelita]

Carmelita, rs&bbm for relevance and convenience. I'm working on a ploddingly slow mobile connection.

It seems from the history that has been presented, that OP has serious impulse control issues. I also see rage and disrespect for authority. I could see him having difficulty supressing those qualities under intense scrutiny and evaluation.

You could well be right. I think he will be controlled and measured when he gets angry.


I think that evaluators are likely to see histrionic behavior, crying, retching, confusion, disassociation from his actions and so on, but again that is just my opinion. On the opposite side of the spectrum Oscar may even get close to a catatonic state during the evaluations when he is overcome with the fact that he killed Reeva and he is going to have to face that fact head on rather than compartmentalize it. ( I realize a cationic state is associated with severe organic mental disorders and I am not suggesting that Oscar bears any of these illnesses) which is why I said “near catatonic”.

I do have a question does anyone here believe that Oscar does not have a maladaptive personality?

It appears that there are a myriad of personality disorders that Oscar can be tucked into, whether or not he is, is up to his evaluators. What significance the evaluators suggest that his maladaptive personality/illness/disorder played in Reeva’s death is what the case hinges on, at the moment.

The whole mental health field is an art not a science and it is fluid, constantly being evaluated and revaluated. Here is a rather interesting article about changes to the DSM V because of flaws or limitations in the previous editions.

http://www.apadivisions.org/divisio...ters/gavel/2013/07/personality-disorders.aspx

There was a huge fight before the DSM V was published for various reasons of disagreement among mental health professionals, as with any art, people are still not satisfied with the DSM V. I would say the author of the article would have been one of the dissenters as to the DSM V being an improvement over the DSM IV.

A PD in and of itself is not a defense by the way, our US prisons are full of diagnosed people.

 

[CriLondon]

Hello everyone.

My first ever post although I have been lurking since the bail hearing....and it's a question for those more enlightened than me.

Regarding the psychological assessment, did the Defence argue so vociferously against it because they know something detrimental to their case?

I assume this because otherwise, if OP is found to have a mental health issue which suggests diminished responsibility then presumably the trial would be halted and in theory he could walk free. This surely would suit them?!

Thank you for your time :blushing:

Hi and welcome!!!

Well , there are 2 groups ( from what i've seen so far , one more numerous than the other!) and it more or less goes as follows:

- The DT argued so badly against the evaluation as it could , potentially , open very dangerous avenues to OP's actual state of mind. This goes along with a theory that his DT would have had him assessed way before the trial started and could , potentially, know what it means to have OP assessed and what the following report for the court would contain.

- The DT introduced DR.V as witness late into the trial due to realizing that their case wasn't strong enough for acquittal . Hoping Dr.V testimony would be used for mitigation/sentencing . In short , they were foreseeing a conviction and hoped the GAD diagnosis would be used to make the stay in jail a bit shorter. In fighting the State's request , they were probably trying to disguise the fact that they introduced this witness so late into the trial which could be seen by the court as a desperate measure.

I'm not saying any of this is correct , or that any of it is what i personally think...i think only the evaluation report will give answers to your questions...and mine for that matter.

:seeya:

 

[Gryffindor]

The results of the evaluation will be interesting.

 

[MsMarple]

You could well be right. I think he will be controlled and measured when he gets angry.

I think that evaluators are likely to see histrionic behavior, crying, retching, confusion, disassociation from his actions and so on, but again that is just my opinion. On the opposite side of the spectrum Oscar may even get close to a catatonic state during the evaluations when he is overcome with the fact that he killed Reeva and he is going to have to face that fact head on rather than compartmentalize it. ( I realize a cationic state is associated with severe organic mental disorders and I am not suggesting that Oscar bears any of these illnesses) which is why I said “near catatonic”.

I do have a question does anyone here believe that Oscar does not have a maladaptive personality?

It appears that there are a myriad of personality disorders that Oscar can be tucked into, whether or not he is, is up to his evaluators. What significance the evaluators suggest that his maladaptive personality/illness/disorder played in Reeva’s death is what the case hinges on, at the moment.

The whole mental health field is an art not a science and it is fluid, constantly being evaluated and revaluated. Here is a rather interesting article about changes to the DSM V because of flaws or limitations in the previous editions.

RSBM

That's an interesting list and I agree that the doctors may see a wide range of behaviors from OP during this period. Hopefully at least some of the resulting report will reach the media.

I think the evaluation mostly entails testing and observation and while the doctors will interview OP their purpose is to diagnose rather than treat. IMO, unless OP suddenly gains a big dose of insight his ability to compartmentalize will remain intact. But yes, it's hard to predict anything.

 

[Carmelita]

Hi and welcome!!!

Well , there are 2 groups ( from what i've seen so far , one more numerous than the other!) and it more or less goes as follows:

- The DT argued so badly against the evaluation as it could , potentially , open very dangerous avenues to OP's actual state of mind. This goes along with a theory that his DT would have had him assessed way before the trial started and could , potentially, know what it means to have OP assessed and what the following report for the court would contain.

- The DT introduced DR.V as witness late into the trial due to realizing that their case wasn't strong enough for acquittal . Hoping Dr.V testimony would be used for mitigation/sentencing . In short , they were foreseeing a conviction and hoped the GAD diagnosis would be used to make the stay in jail a bit shorter. In fighting the State's request , they were probably trying to disguise the fact that they introduced this witness so late into the trial which could be seen by the court as a desperate measure.

I'm not saying any of this is correct , or that any of it is what i personally think...i think only the evaluation report will give answers to your questions...and mine for that matter.

:seeya:

And there is a third opinion Roux was genuinely surprised that Nel brought capacity into the equation as Roux stated that he was not arguing whether or not Oscar knew the rightness or wrongness of his actions, Roux was not arguing whether Oscar had a break with reality ie Roux’s example was if a door had not been shut, a window had not been opened or closed and Oscar had only imagined those scenarios, then a referral would certainly be appropriate. IMO Roux was genuinely perplexed as he put Vorster on the stand to bolster Oscar’s defense of putative self-defense which in Oscar’s case incorporates his hyper response to a perceived home intruder.

The judge decided to grant the request of the referral on her terms which is an outpatient evaluation, in other words, she has covered all her bases. IMO the referral opens the door to a mental illness defect defense as to diminishing Oscar’s awareness of right and wrong if he thought there was an intruder in his toilet. If the state can prove Oscar knew Reeva was in the toilet and willfully shot her point blank then a mental health evaluation is pointless.


BTW I am interested in your analysis of Oscar's smile. When he has run a race or is relaxed he smiles with his whole face, red carpet events, still shots for interviews, his right eye squints slightly and his left side of his mouth turns slightly downward.

Thank you!

 

[Chelly]

Couldn't help but notice those 4 women in green in the front row. They looked ready to make Oscar soup.

Sorry, if this has been asked and answered, I missed it. Who are those women wearing identical green outfits? Is that a uniform?

 

[Gryffindor]

Sorry, if this has been asked and answered, I missed it. Who are those women wearing identical green outfits? Is that a uniform?

Hi. They're women's Defence league advocates for abuse etc against women. They're there to support June Steenkamp (Reeva's mum).

 

[aoibhinn]

You could well be right. I think he will be controlled and measured when he gets angry.


I think that evaluators are likely to see histrionic behavior, crying, retching, confusion, disassociation from his actions and so on, but again that is just my opinion. On the opposite side of the spectrum Oscar may even get close to a catatonic state during the evaluations when he is overcome with the fact that he killed Reeva and he is going to have to face that fact head on rather than compartmentalize it. ( I realize a cationic state is associated with severe organic mental disorders and I am not suggesting that Oscar bears any of these illnesses) which is why I said “near catatonic”.

I do have a question does anyone here believe that Oscar does not have a maladaptive personality?

It appears that there are a myriad of personality disorders that Oscar can be tucked into, whether or not he is, is up to his evaluators. What significance the evaluators suggest that his maladaptive personality/illness/disorder played in Reeva’s death is what the case hinges on, at the moment.

The whole mental health field is an art not a science and it is fluid, constantly being evaluated and revaluated. Here is a rather interesting article about changes to the DSM V because of flaws or limitations in the previous editions.

http://www.apadivisions.org/divisio...ters/gavel/2013/07/personality-disorders.aspx

There was a huge fight before the DSM V was published for various reasons of disagreement among mental health professionals, as with any art, people are still not satisfied with the DSM V. I would say the author of the article would have been one of the dissenters as to the DSM V being an improvement over the DSM IV.

A PD in and of itself is not a defense by the way, our US prisons are full of diagnosed people.

BBM1 :
We've definitely seen all of these behaviours in court. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that under scrutiny and pressure he will reveal more of the same. Where you saw confusion, however, I saw lies. But that's a good example of subjective opinion, right there.

BBM2 :
Oscar's shenanigans in court and his actions that have been revealed surrounding both this and the other charges are ugly to me. I'm sure I've got some media reports jumbled up in there also, for example, the dog incident. Based on this, I believe there is much evidence that his response in certain situations is highly inappropriate (long list) and he is prone to rash behaviours. He has little regard for authority or anyone else besides Oscar, it would seem. He appears to be self-involved and remorseless.
Everyone is prone to some maladaptive behaviours, however mild or extreme. Otherwise we would all be sainted. To what degree Oscar's behaviours are maladaptive will be up to the psych eval team to assess and base their conclusions on. If there's anything there that would, in some way, excuse his actions on the night of Reeva's murder I'm afraid I can't see it.

BBM3 :
I couldn't agree more. I'm currently studying for an applied psychology degree but pursuing an eventual HCI qualification. Psychology is interesting, I do really enjoy it. But it's definitely not an exact science (My head of dept. would be very unhappy to hear me say that, hey there professor :seeya.

BBM4 :
The DSM is hugely contentious and not just because they keep moving goalposts around. They don't issue new guidelines on the laws of mathematics every few years for a good reason. That's hard science.

That's a great link, by the way. Thanks for sharing.

 

[lithgow1]

Something new to watch:

Developments in the Oscar Pistorius murder trial. - YouTube

 

[Gryffindor]

Something new to watch:

Developments in the Oscar Pistorius murder trial. - YouTube

Hiya. Is it a balanced view worth watching?

 

[Chelly]

Hi. They're women's Defence league advocates for abuse etc against women. They're there to support June Steenkamp (Reeva's mum).

Thank you. Appreciate the fast response.

 

[Gryffindor]

Thank you. Appreciate the fast response.

Ah no problem. It's not easy at times, sussing everything out hee x

 

[seattlechiquita]

I MISSED THE PROCEEDINGS. ARGHHHHHHHHHHH --- now to catch up and read. :sigh:

 

[lithgow1]

Hiya. Is it a balanced view worth watching?

Not in the least! They say Oscar Pistorius is the most evil man to walk the planet since Vlad the Impaler and then they all laugh at him. Just kidding Gryffindor - it is quite balanced and both those who think OP is a cold blooded killer and those with an opposing view should be fine with it.

She doesn't really say much anyone here doesn't already know but I guess the fact that she is a regular reporter from the courtroom gives her a bit of an inside angle. You'll like that she doesn't think he is getting special treatment.

 

[minor4th]

Just got a chance to listen to the order. Seems totally fair to me. It allows the professionals to do what they need to do in terms of evaluation - and it doesn't unnecessarily "punish" OP by requiring inpatient status when he doesn't need it. It's flexible enough that it can be concluded in whatever time is necessary, and doesn't place artificial time limits (e.g. Mandatory 30 day evaluation)

IMO nothing much will come of this other than to delay the proceedings.