KC's whereabouts June 17 - June 20

Discussion in 'Resource Links, Case Calendar & Time Lines' started by JWG, May 18, 2009.

  1. JWG

    JWG Active Member

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    I thought I'd start a new thread to pull some discussion into one place that is taking place on a couple of other threads. The discussion centers around the question of whether or not KC spent the night at Tony's June 17 - June 20.

    Pulling over an initial post I made on the topic to open things up:

    A few things about KC "living" with Tony have bothered me, and this was amplified by the "undiscovered" Sept. 8 interview. Here are some excerpts:

    Speaking with Det. Edwards about June 16:
    EE: What did she bring to your apartment that night clothing-wise?
    TL: Just probably something to sleep in.
    EE: So she didn’t like show up with a ruck sack and a, that big bag that her brother ended up coming? That wasn’t the night she brought that?
    TL: No. I don’t think she brought, she didn’t have that until I think from, I’m pretty sure until the 27th. That’s when she had stuff.
    EE: Okay. So she…
    TL: That’s what made me think that when that was the time I guess when she started staying…
    EE: When she set up camp?
    TL: Just yeah (affirmative), well that’s….
    The "ruck sack" does not show up for another 11 days (or so). In the undercover video with Lee, Tony mentions that KC more or less moved in on the 27th, which happened to be the day he went to NY. :rolleyes:

    This is immediately followed by:
    EE: So before that she was just driving back and forth to Mom and Dad’s getting fresh clothes?
    TL: I wouldn’t, uh, there would be times where I, I’m, that’s why I was saying that it was like, it’s kind of hard to remember if she, she might have been there the nights that I was, I was home. But staying there during the day I don’t know. I know for a fact that when I came back, and right before I, I left she was there during the days at my house. Like after that then she was like staying there. I don’t think she ever left my place.
    I found this rather surprising, as that first week (June 16 - June 20) KC's cell phone pings from Tony's apartment and then from the Anthony's on the 17th, 18th, and 20th, yet during that time Tony's phone pings from his apartment. His school schedule is such that he is home the 18th and 20th, and he voluntarily took the 17th off (he says he did not go anywhere that day). How could Tony forget those days as being ones where KC leaves? :waitasec:

    Reading the interview further, it is implied she was not there the eveing of the 17th, and Tony was not sure she was there the evening of the 18th. He said he needed to check his cell records to be sure.
    EE: Wednesday is, did she come back that night and stay over? Because…
    TL: Uh…
    EE: …she stayed somewhere from that point on.
    TL: I can’t remember if she was there that night or not. I’d have to look, uh, it’s, it’s better if I go in my phone records. Because if I’m talking to her at night then I know she’s not at my place. If I’m not talking to her then she’s probably, she could very well could be to my place.
    Huh??? :eek:

    If she suddenly started staying over from the 16th on, one would think he'd remember that, right? :waitasec:

    Well, he does remember her staying over the night of the 20th:
    EE: Alright, let me run, let me run back then to the, I just want to make sure that wasn’t the 20th.
    TL: Okay.
    EE: Anything stand out in your mind? She stay overnight that night of the hot body?
    TL: Oh, yeah (affirmative).
    EE: So…
    TL: Stayed over that night.
    EE: You say oh, yeah (affirmative). How do, how do we know that?
    TL: Because I remember her being, the reason why she even did the hot body was because she got a little drunk that night, and she also ran my bar, oh, she ran, because I al…I usually go in there, I’ll usually go there early, like seven, eight o’clock, order some food, make sure everybody gets there on time, like I was working, and have my tab opened, you know? Never actually run, you know never ever actually have a tab. I made the mistake of saying you could buy a couple drinks on my tab. Well, because, because (inaudible) I get my money for that night and I got to use it to close the tab. So, she spent like sixty dollars on my tab that night. That’s how I, I can remember stuff like that.
    YM: (Laughs.)
    TL: Uh, because I remember scold…I was getting, I got pissed about that one.
    EE: Is that the night she’s in the blue dress dancing with a girl in shorts there?
    TL: Yup (affirmative).
    YM: That’s 20th, right? That’s…
    EE: Yeah (affirmative).
    YM: Yeah (affirmative), that’s 20th.
    IMHO, Tony is sorta, kinda saying that her staying over the nights of the 17th - 19th is in question. :eek:

    Let's look at the cell records. Here is late June 17 / early June 18:
    6/17/08 TUE 11:24:43 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Anthony Lazzaro
    6/17/08 TUE 11:26:39 PM INCOMING TEXT Anthony Lazzaro Casey Anthony
    6/17/08 TUE 11:27:33 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Anthony Lazzaro
    6/17/08 TUE 11:28:19 PM INCOMING TEXT Anthony Lazzaro Casey Anthony

    6/18/08 WED 12:10:17 AM OUTGOING CALL Casey Anthony Papa J's Pizza
    6/18/08 WED 12:11:22 AM OUTGOING CALL Casey Anthony Papa J's Pizza
    6/18/08 WED 12:17:48 AM OUTGOING CALL Casey Anthony Unidentified # 4074339999
    6/18/08 WED 12:19:24 AM OUTGOING CALL Casey Anthony Unidentified # 4074339999
    6/18/08 WED 12:22:07 AM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Anthony Lazzaro
    6/18/08 WED 12:31:31 AM INCOMING TEXT Anthony Lazzaro Casey Anthony

    Here is morning of June 19 (remember, Tony did not have school until 9:00 that day):
    6/19/08 THU 8:32:28 AM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Anthony Lazzaro
    6/19/08 THU 11:03:47 AM INCOMING TEXT Anthony Lazzaro Casey Anthony

    And finally, here is the early AM of the 20th:
    6/20/08 FRI 12:22:32 AM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Anthony Lazzaro
    Why is KC texting Tony if they are supposedly in the same room? :waitasec:

    IMHO, if you put Tony's recollections together with the cell phone record, KC was sleeping in her car most nights between June 17 and June 27.

    More specifically, one can almost imagine her going to bed w/ Tony on the 16th with Caylee asleep in the trunk...finding her dead on the 17th...spending the evening of the 17th / 18th / 19th in the car with her dead child ... then on the 20th going out to party after deciding to discard the body. :eek:

    This could further explain why she got so little sleep during that time period. :eek:
     
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  3. momtective

    momtective Lifetime WS Non-Mod

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    JWG, you never cease to amaze me! I agree with the above stated theory and now I'm just wondering where she was parked during the night-time if she was sleeping/hanging out in her car. I recall you stating on another thread that she had ordered pizza from the Papa Johns clear across town, but weren't the rest of her pings from around TonE's apt. during this time period? Would she have been brazen enough to literally sleep in the parking lot of his apt. complex? Also was Amy's wrecked car still at TonE's during this time period? Could she have had Caylee's body in Amy's wrecked car during this period and been sleeping in the Pontiac near it just to keep watch?
     
  4. Whyamisointerested

    Whyamisointerested New Member

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    June 17,18,or 19th she showed up at Chris's house in Tony's jeep and stayed for 2 hours.
     
  5. AZlawyer

    AZlawyer Verified Attorney

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    JWG, I haven't checked the other threads where you talked about this, so maybe you've already noticed, but KC called 2 Papa John's Pizza places around midnight on June 17-18. The first one was not near Tony's apartment, but 1 minute later she called one much closer to his apartment (Colonial & Goldenrod). It looks like the Papa John'ses (??) around there have a pattern of phone numbers: 407-xxx-7272. So maybe she just called a random exchange for the xxx and then asked them which Papa John's was closest to her, then called the close one. But do they deliver to cars on the street?? I wonder if LE has followed up on the delivery records for that Papa John's for a call received at 12:11 am June 18.
     
  6. ZubenElSchemali

    ZubenElSchemali New Member

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    Hi JWG. I'm glad to see someone else is now thinking she didn't likely sleep at Tony's everynight before the 27th. I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the thread that led me here but...

    When I put in a google search for the 1st papa john's number with the 273 exchange, I come up with 11775 E. Colonial which is at the corner of Alafaya, not near Amscot, but near Tony R's. She calls twice after they close so on the first call she would find out they are closed if she weren't already aware of that. I think she was trying to reach an employee, looking for someone in particular. The first call was nearly a minute so not simply trying to order a pizza at an establishment that is closed. The 2nd call was only 4 seconds, still enough time to ask if so and so works there.

    I also think the unknown number is important, ending 9999 but I haven't been able to find out anything about it other than it is an AT+T cell in the Kissimee/Orlando area. LATA is 45808. PhoneTray says its a Cingular number from Kissamee. She called this number right after, twice and talked for over a minute each. Since the calls were only 2 minutes apart, I'm sure this is important. LE didn't seem to follow up on a lot of things that raise questions in my mind.
     
  7. ibyoungr

    ibyoungr New Member

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    Just a thought.. but could she have been staying at Tony R's? I posted my thought [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3757187&postcount=193"]here[/ame] and wanted to bring it over for discussion.
     
  8. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    Interesting observation re: same last-4 digs for PJ's, AZ. :waitasec:

    I'm not certain who it was, but, on one of the other threads IIRC, they suggested PJ's closed @ Midnight.

    Casey's first call to PJ#1 @ 12:10AM 6/18 lasted 52 seconds. Her call to PJ#2 @ 12:11AM lasted 4 seconds. Perhaps call#1 was an "I'm sorry, we're closed" w/ some attempt to flirt the guy into just one more order (pick-up or delivery)...and/or...as you suggest, just a call to get the closer store's phone#, only to dial it and learn that they were closed.

    The 2 calls to 407-###-9999 @ 12:17 & 12:19AM lasted 1min 18secs and 1min 12secs respectively. This same number was called 6/29 @ 6:06PM...the only other time 6/1-7/17 it was called, except on 6/29 it doesn't appear to have an associated duration. There were no incoming calls from this number during the entire period.

    Somehow the 9999 call seems like it would provide a clue as to what Casey was thinking/planning in response to not getting PJ.

    I looked for any possible mis-dialing of this number that might match to another number in her records she might've been attempting to dial. No luck. :doh: Dialed today it yields a 'not a valid #' message.

    I'm intrigued by Casey's calls to this 9999 lasting >1min. That she dialed it again on 6/29...:confused:
     
  9. ibyoungr

    ibyoungr New Member

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    Bolded by me above.... regarding the number(s) ending in 9999

    note the prefixes are different 433, 478, 447 respectively...


    407-433-9999
    407-478-9999
    407-447-9999

    Per the cell records... it states those are ATT system messages?

    Seems to me.. are some Pay phones that the last 4 digits start with a 9....

    here is a link that is quite interesting and it looks like alot of the pay phone numbers start with a 9

    http://www.payphone-project.com/
     
  10. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    FWIW...

    We know Tony skipped out Tuesday's day schedule to sleep in w/ Casey.

    Appears to me from Tony's pings that he went to Full Sail <11:13PM Tuesday night 6/17 for classes (South-to-Northwest side of the Purlieu tower which is consistent w/ Full Sail vs. South-to-Northeast side which is consistent w/ his apt.).

    That would be one legitimate explanation for Casey texting with Tony from his apt. area later @ 12:22AM 6/18.

    FYI. CID's for Tony's texts messages aren't available to my knowledge.
     
  11. JWG

    JWG Active Member

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    As part of the effort to nail KC's whereabouts on the days in question, one must be willing to blow some holes in one's own theory. :rolleyes:

    So here goes the first hole... :bang:

    On June 17 9:14 PM, according the Photobucket investigative materials (discovery page 4043), KC uploaded a picture (I believe the one with Tony where she is wearing a black dress) to Photobucket from an IP address registering from his apartment. So she was there at least at that time.

    Furthermore, while Tony skipped class in the AM to be with KC, he did have class from 9PM to 1AM that evening and probably did not skip that one. That could explain the 10-or-so texts between the two of them between ~8:40PM and 12:20 AM.
     
  12. ibyoungr

    ibyoungr New Member

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    Here is some more information regarding Casey staying at Tony's after June 9th per Maria Kissh, Clint House's girlfriend

    PR: After June 9th?
    MK: Yes, while he was looking for a place to live. And uhm...Clint stayed at Tony's temp from June 1st until I believe July 1st.
    PR: So uh, Casey was staing with Tony?
    MK: Hmm?
    PR: Casey was basically stating over at Tony's
    MK: Basically, uh-hum. And I knew this because Clint, my boyfriend, was staying there for a few weeks while he was lookng for a new apartment. Uhm, and I would, I would call Clint in the mid... in the middle of the afternooon whti his breaks between classes adn seh would ju be over there hanging out. And she was always, you know, fixing him(Tony) dinner. Uhm, she would go out, actually I know we went out the 20th.
     
  13. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    hole-shmole...all partuvthe 'picking apart' process ;)

    Which reminds me of a favorite quote...

    "No problem can withstand the assault of sustained thinking." - Voltaire :highfive:

    *snipped for Encase chart*

    Bringing this lil' gem back to help us (nice return on investment for stuff you did months ago, eh, JWG?).

    Not all that pertinent to this thread, but, FWIW, I'm a proponent that the times on the EnCase chart are actually shifted 1 hr vs. 'reality' (e.g. chart shows 9-10PM what activity was really happening 10-11PM)

    Back on-topic...FWIW, the heavy usage shown from 9-10PM (read 10-11PM per above note, IMHO) reflects Casey's first opportunity to get on the laptop after downloading pics onto it that afternoon 2-3PM (read 3-4PM, IMHO) when Tony left for Full Sail that night (6/17).

    ...so...not a hole @ all. Now we have a clearer picture of what Casey did the evening after she had - only a few hours earlier - confronted the consequences of her actions in the trunk of her car @ G&C's.

    Hmmmm...what to do?...what to do? I know! :idea: after spending the last couple of hours glued to her PC like a WS (no time to eat or goto the bathroom) she got off the computer just after midnight 12AM-1AM (read 11-12PM on the Encase chart) and tried to order pizza..."Hello! I'm starved...can you send over a large...What?!...You're closed?! D@mbit!??? What a waste! A huge waste!" :furious:
     
  14. Chezhire

    Chezhire Inactive

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    They weren't home by 12:22 a.m., and I can imagine that if the party at Fusian was loud and busy that they might have texted to communicate if they weren't right beside each other...
     
  15. Chezhire

    Chezhire Inactive

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    She could've lied about "living" somewhere and stood outside to receive the pizza... especially if she lied about an apartment, where she could stand outside any downstairs...
     
  16. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    ...looking @ Wednesday, 6/18, we don't have much to go on @ first-glance.

    Casey made the trip to G&C's in the afternoon for some shovel-time. Tony appeared to hang out @ his apt. and maybe (speculation) make a trip over to Lexus around the time Casey went to G&C's. Without CID's on Tony's texts I can't place him very well...too few calls to/from Tony 6/18.

    No texts 'tween Casey & Amy 6/18.
     
  17. Woe.be.gone

    Woe.be.gone Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, TL left for NY on June 30 and returned July 5, 2008. Is there contradicting evidence that he went to NY on June 27 as JWG states in the lead post in this thread?

    I thought TL said that, after he returned from NY, is when KC was pretty much at his place full time. Doesn't mean it's true but that is what I remember him telling LE.
     
  18. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    *snipped*

    I believe JWG's simply referring to the last date in which the Pontiac was in continuous use by Casey. IOW...after 6/27 it sat in the Amscot parking lot until it was towed Monday morning 6/30.
     
  19. Intermezzo

    Intermezzo Well-Known Member

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    Hi :)
    BBM
    The PJ located at E.Colonial and Alafaya Trail has the following hours
    Delivery Hours: 10:00 am - 01:00 am
    Carryout Hours: 10:00 am - 12:30 am

    Another location at UCF also has the same hours

    The 2 PJs closest to TL's apartment(Semoran location and Colonial @ Goldenrod/Amscot Center location) both close at Midnight.
     
  20. Woe.be.gone

    Woe.be.gone Well-Known Member

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    Amy states "I will be homeless June 18". That must mean that AH stayed at RM's longer than the temporary stay between locations as she was planning to move in with KC. IIRC KC stayed with AH at RM's during the time TL was in NY (beginning of July). AH was probably not too happy with KC on June 18!

    AH lived with Troy prior to her staying at RM's and was planning to move in with KC. Troy had been in VA since moving out of whereever he lived with AH (Oviedo addy) prior to him returning to Orlando on June 18.

    If AH didn't know she would still be welcome at RM's after Jun 18, it is unlikely that KC would be at RM's this week as she had proclaimed that TL was now "the One". I wonder where JPC was during this time and what he could add to the story.

    On the 20th of June, KC claimed she "threatened to Kill somebody". Probably drunk while at Fusion. Wonder what the details regarding that are. You'd think TL would know as he was with KC at Fusion that night.

    I wrote down on my reference calendar that, as of June 22 KC mainly stayed at TL's (cept when he was in NY 6/30-7/05). I can't come up with any real evidence/testimony for the dates listed on this thread.

    Lee tells TL that he he trying to figure out where KC had been staying since 6/16. Lee brings up that he asked his sister about the pizza calls that were made from KC's phone and she said they had been made by "one of TL's roommates using my phone". TL tells Lee that KC stayed with him "later that month". Lee talked and talked but TL offered very little concrete information. TL stated he had his "project" due on June 27.

    On Thurs., June 19, TL and KC visit Cranes Landing to look at apts. They were together that day so I would guess she stayed at TL's. Did TL ever say why he needed/wanted to move? Seems like a big hassle to me if for no reason.

    On 6/17 at 1:37 PM, KC texts someone, "Just hold on to it for now." Wonder what that was about?

    Every day on the subject dates she is in contact with her Lexus Connection at least once if not twice. The 19th she calls Lexus at 16:20. What time did KC and TL go to Cranes on the 19th?

    Since TL claimed that the first day KC stayed over was on June 13, my guess is that she would have been mainly at his place since that date. Everybody else says she dropped off and I don't see any calls between her and Jesse over these dates.
     
  21. Intermezzo

    Intermezzo Well-Known Member

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    This is what I've got so far in regards to where she may have slept during that time
    Correct any errors I've made, for I'm sure I've missed something...so much to piece together that I did not want to make a novel out of this post LOL

    1. June 16 PM and June 17AM. SLEEPOVER
    Casey and TL go to Blockbuster, rent 2 movies and watch them both. TL skips school on June 17AM so they can spend time together and sleep in.
    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...349,-81.322174&spn=0.269701,0.432587&t=h&z=11

    2. June 17 PM and June 18 AM Looks good for a Sleepover
    Casey's cell pings at TL's on the evening of June 17, Ping 11 8:32PM(missing hours end)
    Casey calls or tries to call for pizza after Midnight(June 18), TL is probably at school and she is at his apartment waiting for him to return.
    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...226,-81.326981&spn=0.269665,0.432587&t=h&z=11
    June 18 Ping 1 (tower near TL's apartment)
    12:10 am - 12:31 am June 18(she calls PJ's and the 9999 number during this timeframe)
    Ping 2 June 18 AM(tower near the Amscot)
    7:55 am - 9:01 am.
    Casey pings from at/near TL's apartment until about 2pm that day


    3. June 18PM to June 19AM Unsure of a Sleepover

    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...226,-81.326981&spn=0.269665,0.432587&t=h&z=11 (June 18 Ping Map)
    This evening's pings show her at/near TL's from about 4:30 the last ping (ping 16) is at 6:57pm for that evening according to the logs and does not ping again until 8:32AM the morning of June 19, which pings from the tower near Amscot.
    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...81.288528&spn=0.269648,0.432587&t=h&z=11(June 19 Ping Map)

    4. June 19PM and June 20AM Unsure of a Sleepover
    Pings on June 19PM between 9:13 and 10:38PM at/near TL apartment,
    12:22AM June 20 last ping of the night at/near TL apartment
    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...d=103915041605280294744.0004595f37c76e04440a2
    Ping 2 for June 20 at 8:10AM until about 1pm is at/near TL's aparment

    5. June 20PM and June 21 AM Definitely Looks good for a Sleepover

    June 20 is Fusion Night. Last ping for June 20PM is at 11:23PM near Fusion
    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...d=103915041605280294744.0004595f37c76e04440a2
    Does not ping again until June 21 AM at 3:10AM at/near TL's apartment and according to the pings it seems she did not leave TL's area that day.
    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e....532655,-81.337967&spn=0.269651,0.432587&z=11

    Any thoughts, suggestions, corrections?
    You'll have to excuse me and my work, I don't think I've put a post like this together before LOL
     

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