1. shadowraiths

    shadowraiths LISK Liaison, Verified Forensic Psychology Special Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    2,871
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yes, they exist. Of course they do. One need only look at Adolfo de Jesús Constanzo, who tortured and murdered Mark Kilroy during a death ritual. Kilroy was a 21-year-old pre-med Texas university student, who was kidnapped for Constanzo's by his "gang" of drug runners, and spirited away to Constanzo's ranch in Matomoros, Mexico. Was Constanzo's "death cult" Satanic? No. He practiced Palo Mayombe, the dark side of the Afro-Caribbean offshoot of Voudoun, Santeria.

    That being said, I really don't want to derail the main thread about very real tragedies with a debate on whether (or not) a nation-wide Satanic Cult is running around murdering college students in Satanic rituals. So I've started this thread. Debate away!
     
  2. Loading...


  3. nursebeeme

    nursebeeme Registered User

    Messages:
    53,159
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
  4. nursebeeme

    nursebeeme Registered User

    Messages:
    53,159
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
  5. nursebeeme

    nursebeeme Registered User

    Messages:
    53,159
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Seems there is such a thing as a water cult that dates back to prechristianity where water was worshiped...sometimes with the use of sacrifice via drowning in the name of pagan gods. Then along came the christians and ~snip~ Consequently, with a veneer of Christianity, and the substitution of a saint's name, water worship has held its own to our day." (Bonser 1974, 29).

    entire archeological article can be found here : http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html

    Additionaly, ~snip~
    "Where fresh water runs there runs spirit, and this is particularly so wherever water springs up from below the earth, for it comes from the realm of the earth goddess and bears her gifts. Properly every spring has its season of efficacy when its virtues are most generously displayed. In times before doctors, psychiatrists, marriage guidance officials, newspaper horoscopes, drugs and artificial fertilisers, all their functions were exercised by the spirits of the local springs, who required no payment but respect and attention" (Michell 1975, quoted in Whelan and Taylor 1989, 8).


    Perhaps there IS a connection to the catholic school?? These cases were all in different bodies of water 'from the earth'. Why did blood hounds pick up Chris Jenkins' scent at the catholic school when he did not go there to school? Hmmmm....
     
  6. eve

    eve New Member

    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Someone else mentioned (can't remember who or what thread) that they had once thought there was a Catholic connection...anyone know how many of the victims were Catholic?

    I guess I assumed the scent was carried to the St John's site by the killer/s somehow?

    Eve
     
  7. DeltaDawn

    DeltaDawn Inactive

    Messages:
    3,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/satan1.htm

    SNIP/

    The USA undoubtedly manifests the greatest concentration of satanic sects which we could define as well-known, that is, which act more or less in the open, and it is always in this country that we can find the most bibliographical references to contemporary satanism. Among the well-known groups which have arisen in the USA and which are still active we find: Church of Satan, Temple of Set, Order of the Black Ram, Werewolf Order, Worldwide Church of Satanic Liberation, Church of War. Among those which seem to have ceased their activity after a few years we find: Church of Satanic Brotherhood, Brotherhood of the Ram, Our Lady of Endor Coven, The Satanic Orthodox Church of Nethilum Rite, The Satanic Church. In addition, there are other organizations for which it is difficult to determine whether they have ceased their activity or not, for example the so-called Order Templi Satanis, whose writings are distributed on the Internet.

    /SNIP
     
  8. DeltaDawn

    DeltaDawn Inactive

    Messages:
    3,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  9. Eire

    Eire New Member

    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I know I'll get jumped all over again for saying this,but since the question was asked, I feel I have just as much right as everyone else to answer it. No, there is no cult, Satanic or otherwise at work here. There hasn't ever been any evidence of an organized Satanic cult murdering or kidnapping people. We went through this in the 80's. Yes, Satanic organizations exist. To call any religion a cult simply because we dont' follow it, I feel is mislabeling that faith. There are Satanic religions out there, no doubt. But, they don't as a matter of course do these sorts of things.

    The problem with looking them up online is considering the source. Most of the sites I've run across are fundamentalist or at least Christian in nature, thus not very reliable when trying to determine what a paticular sect may or may not do. I can speak from experience and knowledge of both the Church of Satan and the Temple of Set, neither does this sort of thing. Are there people who claim to be members and commit crimes? Oh, yes. Ramirez did. It was rumored that Manson himself was a member of the Church of Satan, he wasn't. Neither was the Son of Sam.

    It's easier to think some dark, evil force is at work than to think it's one or two people who we would never suspect. That's the sad reality of cases like this, we need a boogeyman because the alternative is too upsetting. There is no boogeyman in my opinion. Not in the traditional sense, anyway.

    I know someone will jump my butt for what I'm about to say, so be it. The basic problem here is a lack of knowledge as to what Satanist groups do and believe. If we took the time to learn about what they do, they'd not be so dark and scary.

    Personally, and I'm sorry if this sounds glib, I'd think of Satanists all of the sudden turned organized murder machine, they'd be targeting pseudo-goths who like to do stupid things then claim they're doing Satanic rituals. Not that I condone organized murder under any circumstances, mind you. I'm just saying college boys with athletic builds and high GPAs aren't a problem for Satanist groups. Kids playing dark, scary Satanic, demon child are.
     
  10. kline

    kline New Member

    Messages:
    1,955
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This where it can get kind of confusing.
    I know people who consider satanism thier religion and belong to an organized group are offended by the word 'satanic cult'.
    Which I can understand.
    Im a Christian and Ive grown weary of having various high profile political loud mouth bigots and killers from the crusades thrown in my face as if I co-sign thier madness by virtue of my Faith when what they define as "Christianity'to me is a gross misrepresentation of what I believe it to be.
    Having said that how do we define a group of really bad people who arent organized satanists but pick and choose from various forms of thought such as the Process and others to legitimize the evil they commit?
    Clearly they are psychopaths and view evil as something to exalt.
    Yes 'real' satanists wouldnt do this.
    Real Christians wouldnt do the things Jim Jones,David Koresh,hundreds of disease carrying 'missionaries' or several lynchmobs have done either but that doesnt mean those attrocities didnt happen.
    But perhaps it matters less how we define these people then how they define themselves however illegitimately.
    The Sam cult is a good example.
    And yes inspite of the talk show hysteria of the '80's I beleive members of this group were responsible for much of what Maury Terry attributed to them .
    I dont think its fair to blame him for the nonsense his investigation into that specific case inspired a bunch of ratings hungry network idiots to indulge in.
    Ive yet to see any of his allegations about the Son Of Sam case refuted by any reliable source.
    In this particular case,yes I think ( though they are most certainly not a group of 'satanists' in the pure sense of the word) a group of people simular to the Sam group or perhaps some mutation of it could very well be responsible.
     
  11. Blink34

    Blink34 Former Member

    Messages:
    5,476
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ok then Eire- I would be interested in any knowledge as to what Satanists do and believe as you say if you feel for the most part that that is what we are lacking in forming a better hypothesis-
    Your post took guts, I'll give you that, and I felt you were eloquent in it's presentation. I do agree with the last line.
     
  12. Blink34

    Blink34 Former Member

    Messages:
    5,476
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    well said, I think the most poignant thing you stated for me as I bolded above is this. Imo, any person or persons, group, or gang, whatever you want to refer to it as, will use whatever means, teachings, rituals, they can find to further their cause. If their cause is evil, how else are you going to entice others to participate, there has to be an example of it's success (real or perceived) somewhere-
     
  13. shadowraiths

    shadowraiths LISK Liaison, Verified Forensic Psychology Special Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    2,871
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Nazi Germany
     
  14. Blink34

    Blink34 Former Member

    Messages:
    5,476
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yes, sadly.
     
  15. SuziQ

    SuziQ Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    34,000
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    48
    What's interesting is when murderers commit their crimes in the name of Satan, they really have no knowledge about Satanism. They are usually young adults who are in love with the romance part of being a Satanist and that's it. They are another example of someone who uses a cult or religion to further their own agenda. Which in many cases is to merely hurt something or someone. Then there are the one's who are mentally ill, that are grasping for something to hold on to, so that their screwed up minds make sense. Some of those go the way of Jesus, some go the way of Satan.
     
  16. Eire

    Eire New Member

    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Nah, it didn't take guts at all. Just a big mouth and a large soapbox :) Satanists, and when I say that, I'm refering to groups like the Church of Satan, don't worship Satan at all. The thing to remember about Anton LaVey is, he was a showman. He knew what would really rile people up and he named his belief system after it. Thus, Satanism. It worked, especially in the late 60's in San Francisco. Piss off the Hippies and Middle America all at once, that was LaVey's style. They don't worship Satan or dark, evil demons. They're really more into themselves than worshiping anything when you get right down to it. It's what some of my Satanist friends call a self-centered religion. Satanism the way LaVey taught it, it was more about being intelligent, taking personal responsiblity for your actions and your failings and basically living for yourself. That's why many consider it a self-centered faith. LaVey added some guidelines about how a Satanist is to behave and what is important. Two of those guidelines are "Do no kill animals" and "Do not harm little children." There are guidelines about not harassing women sexually and not stealing as well. As it was put to me by a friend years ago, there's nothing stopping your standard Satanist from punching random strangers in the nose, but he has to be ready to face the consequences for his actions. No excuses, no "I didn't have a puppy when I was 7." Whatever you do, you and you alone are responsible for. If you choose to be a miserable jackass, you'll be a lonely miserable jackass and nobody will make excuses for you. He has some social Darwinist leanings I find distasteful on a personal level, but the faith is against killing, torturing and maiming. There aren't any rituals which would require a new member to prover his or her "worth" so to speak to the group. Actually, all you need to join the LaVeyan path is about $200. That's right, you buy your way in. Not condoning it, just putting it out there.

    The Temple of Set was founded by a man who was a member of the Church of Satan. He and LaVey had a falling out. Nobody will ever get the true story behind that one as LaVey said one thing and Temple of Set guy said another and the truth is probably more like there wasn't enough space in any given room for both egos to exist at the same time. I personally don't care for the way Set is run, but I dobut he's losing any sleep over that one. :) They like to play up the dark stuff, but they aren't into killing or maiming or hurting either. I'm pretty sure you just buy your way in there too. I'd have to seek clarification on that though. The truth is, a Satanic gathering would probably either bore the pants off most people or make them giggle insanely. Personally, I giggled insanely, but I was polite enough to do so behind closed doors. My dearest friend in all of this world and the next was a Satanist. I said somewhere else that his passing from this world left a deep wound in the hearts of many. He was a wonderful human being with a heart of gold. He just happened to follow a belief system most of us find scary or off-putting. There was nothing scary or off-putting about it. I used to be scared half to death of the whole thing, but I learned about it and it stopped being scary.

    Yes, there are many groups of practicing Satanists in many countries around the world. They don't generally participate in mass homicides or crime sprees because personal responsibility plays a big role in the beliefs. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that someone claiming to be a Satanist can commit crimes, history proves that happens. I'm sure certain Satanists commit crimes too. But, an organized group of them, no.

    The main reason I spoke up in the first place is, I'm a practicing Pagan and have been for over 10 years. When things like this happen and the murderous cult theories get bandied about, we're all mashed together into one huge lump of evil. We aren't evil people practicing evil and worshiping demons. We are just like everyone else. In fact, you'd most likel not be able to recognize a Pagan or a Satanist in a crowd. You'd be able to pick out a few, but most of us are just your average guy/gal on the street.

    Hope my little novel has cleared things up a tad bit. I didn't mean to go on so, I was planning on the "Reader's Digest" version. :) If you want to know more, I'm always happy to educate.
     
  17. SeriouslySearching

    SeriouslySearching Active Member

    Messages:
    35,527
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Very fascinating stuff, Eire! I think every religion has extremists and this applies across the board. People have a definite problem with being openminded enough to explore other religions or alternative spiritualities. Fear is a natural response to something we are not familiar with that sounds negative. Thanks for posting.
     
  18. MeoW333

    MeoW333 New Member

    Messages:
    4,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Water is a natural conduit. We may have a couple individuals with twisted beliefs of some sort doing the killings. I'm not sure about a cult type scenario. Most cults like to keep their members confined from outsiders in order to brainwash them better. At the least, say for example, Manson, the members still returned to him and the ranch after they were out doing wrongdoings. There would have to be a cult in each of the states where a college boy has drowned and the odds of this and them having the same m.o. would seem to be slim. If it is to be a religious evil cult, they are highly organized and secretive and the smiley face symbol seems out of place for that. I wish we were privy to more information that the detectives know. As for a cult, it's more believable if it were a couple or few different people doing the killings; even if they do not know each other.
     
  19. Eire

    Eire New Member

    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I can start with a few simple refutations. Son of Sam claimed to be a member of The Process church at the time of the killings. The Process Church was defunct at the time of the killings. He claims the "Sam" in Son of Sam came from Samhain, the Celtic lord of the dead, there is no such Celtic God. Samhain is a Celtic celebration to mark the end of summer. It means "Summers end.' The "Sam" part isn't even pronounced Sam, it's prononuced "Sow." The worst of what is said of The Process Chruch comes from two books. They successfully sued the publishers of one of them and had mention of the group removed. David also claims he was a member of a Satanic group, The Process were not Satanic in nature. Further, Satanic groups don't worship Celtic Gods, they don't worship any Gods. I don't believe there ever was a Sam group. If there was, their knowledge of the God they claimed to worship is pathetic. No such God existed. How on Earth a harvest celebration got turned into the big, bad, evil Celtic lord of the dead is beyond me. It's one of those urban myths two minutes of research clears up easily, but it's taken on a life of its own nonetheless.
     
  20. Eire

    Eire New Member

    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanking you. :) You are correct, every faith has extremists and nut jobs. They don't define the belief system, but they do get most of the attention. I call it the newspaper factor. "Satanic group kicks puppies" sells more papers than "Satanic group feeds the homelsee." It's the same with "Christian blows up abortion clinic" that sells papers where "Christian youths aid disaster victims" wouldn't. It's a shame, people just don't want to read about the good. In the words of Don Henley "We love dirty laundry." When I quote Don Henley, it's a sure sign I need coffee and/or a nap. :)
     
  21. shadowraiths

    shadowraiths LISK Liaison, Verified Forensic Psychology Special Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    2,871
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Urban legends die hard, esp the juicy ones (the son of sam, process church, conspiracy theory, not really falling into that category, imho, more like a grade D pulp fiction). Take La Llorona (The Weeping Woman), for example? Or how about e'l Chucacabra (The Goat Sucker)? And who could forget Sasquatch (Big Foot)? All of these urban legends have a rich history within the culture from which they sprouted. And, just perhaps, turns what might otherwise be a boring, even tragic (in some instances), existence, into something bordering on magical. Imho, Christian Nestell Bovee says it best:

    "Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities. No man is happy without a delusion of some kind." - Christian Nestell Bovee

    As for the claims of Maury Terry? I have tracked down his claims and found... well... nothing. I was however intrigued wrt how so many came to embrace the claims arising out of the "satanic panic" mess and in fact, wrote an article, Sins of our Fathers, that attempts to explore just that.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice