Killer Types

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Jayelles, Jan 19, 2005.

  1. Jayelles

    Jayelles New Member

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    There are serial killers - people who kill for pleasure. Then there are crimes of passion - the husband who catches his wife in flagrante delicto with the milkman.

    We really have no idea what kind of killing the Ramsey murder fits into.

    Many people theorise that a family member did it and that it was covered up. Others believe an intruder did it - but for what reason? Very few child murders happen as a result of a stranger breaking into the home. Fewer still occur on Christmas Day - when people are at home, maybe entertaining friends.

    Now if JonBenet were killed by a serial killer, perhaps the pleasure factor was so strong that it overruled any natural fear of being caught. However, does it seem likely that such a fearless and perverted killer would resist the urge to do it again .... and again .....? That's 8 years.

    So if this was a crime of passion - what "passion" would be strong enough for someone to kill a defenceless child? What hatred could overcome the natural urge to protect a little child from harm and to carry out a crime like this in cold blood?
     
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  3. Camper

    Camper New Member

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    Heavy question Jayelles! How about a cover up. How about a child that was going to tell ?something? that would destroy a family?

    Hard to imagine what the reason was for JonBenets murder, an accident OR?



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  4. gaia

    gaia Cat Servant

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    I dunno, but I believe anyone who'd walk into a foreign house, find a child they might or might not be addicted to, murder her, stage her body in the basement, write a ransom note, and get away without ANY detection is HOUDINI. Has to be. Most people interested in messing with a child are sick, on drugs most of the time, and debilitated. If a foreign faction were involved, these folks must be damned stupid. No planning, lots of screw-ups, bad cover-up. Nah. That's not very plausible. Sick people (ie. child molesters) are often not just sick in the mind, they're often unable to hold down a job, have familial relationships, and are on drugs to mostly nullify their urges. C'mon, folks. People like that aren't going to be very successful in entering a house like this, doing what they want, and escaping without leaving evidence of consequence. Foreign factions would most surely plan much better and make sure to retrieve the object of their desired intention - money. Please help me. I'm mostly just venting, but I'd love some direction on this. I need good arguments. :bang:
     
  5. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    I think one of the difficulties in understanding this case is thinking in terms of killing. I think Patsy stopped JonBenet's life for sure, but the goal of her actions was not killing. Patsy used JonBenet as an object in her private fantasy life. Patsy did things to the object in order to participate with the fantasy and the object died in the process. The ending of the girl's life was just one event in a long process known as a progressive psychosis. In such a psychosis the sufferer can't tell the diference between themselves and the object. Everything Patsy did to the object, she was doing to herself, in her mind by proxy. Patsy had to separate the soul of the object from the body, so the soul could go to heaven. The object had to die, but that was ancillary to the main goal: JonBenet is in a heaven with a God.
     
  6. concernedperson

    concernedperson Former Member

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    Please excuse my lack of understanding, but could this be similar to Andrea Yates and Deanna Laney? Laney was convinced she was doing God's work according to her taped testimony. And she proceeded to stone two of her children to death....the third lived, a baby, but with serious repercussions.
     
  7. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    Yes and no. The "mechanics" of the psychosis is similar, but the content of the psychosis is different for each person.

    And in each case, "God" is both an objective archetypal factor and a personal factor in the psyche of the killer. Thus the killer has moral responsibility but will not recognize it as the killer cannot tell the difference between itself and the object. The only way out of the psychosis is to reach a level of rationality and morality to admit to oneself and the world that they were wrong about knowing God intimately and that they sacrificed someone's life to avoid becoming self sacrificing.
     
  8. Camper

    Camper New Member

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    ---------------->>>>Brother Moon, your explanations of the intricacies of the 'sick' human mind, as it pertains to this particular case, are interesting to say the least.

    If you would be so kind as to tell us your intellectual area of study, the type of degree you may hold in this science? I am not asking for personal information here, but just the route you have taken in study to achieve this degree of understanding.

    Then IF IF you are familiar with 'any' murder cases where this type of mental problem existed with the killer and what 'sentence' the killer received. Did they end up in a place like "One Flew Over The Coo Coo's Nest"?

    Edited to add: Have you ever found yourself in a courtroom testifying to this type of behavior, and what might the circumstance have been?

    Thanks.
    Camper
     
  9. packerdog

    packerdog Active Member

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    OMG Jayelles I was just thinking about the very same things yesterday. Why would someone break into a house with a family home to kill a 6yr.old child? A pedophile would maybe pull a Westerfield and take the child with him so he could satisfy himself. Who would take the time to make a garrote? Why wouldn't he just strangle her with his bare hands? I would think if someone really wanted to kidnap her for randsom they would have done so while she was in the yard playing or some other time, not from her bed with her family home.This just makes no sense to me.

    I think Patsy was getting JB ready for bed and wanted her to go potty first and she resisted Patsy. Patsy then might have pushed her into the bathroom and JB hit her head on one of the fixtures, like the tub or toliet. JB was in bad shape due to the crack in her skull and if she had lived she would tell what happened and no way Patsy wanted that so she staged the whole thing.
     
  10. princessmer81

    princessmer81 New Member

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    BrotherMoon -

    Wow. That is pretty insightful.

    I want to make sure that I understand what you have said...

    "Thus the killer has moral responsibility but will not recognize it as the killer cannot tell the difference between itself and the object."

    Are you saying that Patsy and these other women who killed their children cannot tell the difference between themselves and their children? So they think that God wants them to kill themselves or a part of themselves so they kill their children which they see as being part of themselves?

    "The only way out of the psychosis is to reach a level of rationality and morality to admit to oneself and the world that they were wrong about knowing God intimately and that they sacrificed someone's life to avoid becoming self sacrificing."
    So these women don't really think that they have done anything wrong. The only way that they would realize that they did something wrong would be if they also realized that they sacrificed another person's life and not their own?
     
  11. sissi

    sissi Former Member

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    The meat and potatoes seems to be the killer was nuts, right Brother Moon?
    Why does it have to be Patsy? She can't quite live down that monologue in your eyes? Ya' know what, I think you are giving her far too much credit, IMO she isn't that "deep". She didn't have any problem with her reality, her reality was queen on her throne with the ability to call most shots except of course that nasty health turn.
    You , likely, are right, in your portrayal of the perp, if it was someone like Fleet (who I believe took quite a manic turn that Christmas), or if someone like Santa who just seemed "gone". (perhaps he had a little event during his surgery that took a chunk of reality with it?)
    Chances are, however, it was some moronic meth head in the neighborhood who thought he could pull off a kidnapping, maybe with some assist.

    I feel a little bad about one thing here, 'cause I "kinda" know what your response would be if you weren't under a little restraining order, so don't worry, I can feel the real feedback:)
     
  12. princessmer81

    princessmer81 New Member

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    Ok, then I have some more questions :p ...

    A moronic meth head who is able to pull off a murder without a trace and uses words like "Southern Gentleman" and "attaché?" I have never heard of such a thing.

    Also, maybe I am wrong but I don't think that those other crazy women who killed their children did anything to try to cover up their crimes - at least not the one who drowned her kids in the bathtub or the one that cut off her baby's arms. IMO they thought that they were acting in accord with a sign from God and so they didn't think that they had done anything bad that they needed to cover up.
    If Patsy truely is insane and truely thought that killing JonBenet was what God wanted her to do then why would she cover it up?
     
  13. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    I have a degree in chemistry, and was a couple of courses short of having a double in physics. My hobby is reading about art history/interpretation, particularly the interpretation of symbols in the art associated with religion, and specifically things having to do with divine inspiration. Depth psychologists speak of that experience in terms of psychosis. I research western esoterica and the role geometry plays in the development of myth. Geometric figures are experienced in dreams, lowered states of consciousness, the creative process and psychosis. I have experienced psychosis and the spontaneous production of mandala images in dreams and visions as a compensation for my lack of ego/persona development, This occured as the result of reading and unguided thought experiments. I think Patsy Ramsey also found her way to psychosis as the result of her attachment to literature.

    I wouldn't use the word sick, what happened to Patsy and to me is a part of human behavior that we are distant from but other cultures in other times sought these experiences out. Read Carlos Castaneda, read about Chaco Canyon, read about the development of Methodism in the U.S.

    Read the biography of Mark David Chapman, Strawberry Fields (I think).

    No, I have never testified. I'm not an expert, I have no degrees in this area, no professional experience. I'm just a reader. Some things are learned outside of school. One thing I learned is we are under the influence of two philosophies; scientific materialism and Judeo/Christianity, that actively have us lop off huge parts of ourselves during our development.
     
  14. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    God, as supernatural being, is a projection of the inner archetype. A psychotic lacks objectivity and thus blends identity with the inner archetype, they become a God in part. The liturgy that may exist with their particular Myth system is therfore "theirs", and they can do what they want with it as justification and validation for what is really self serving actions. Thus Patsy can write a ransom note based on The Psalms and The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie without actually learning the lesson those stories impart. It's the same reasoning going on in fundamental Islam.

    The result of a person's efforts to get out of the psychosis is first alienation and isolation: loneliness. That must happen before the person can become self reflective and analytical. Most people would rather remain in the fantasy or even kill other humans to avoid the loneliness.
     
  15. Camper

    Camper New Member

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    Thank you BrotherMoon for enlightening us all on where you are coming from.

    Princessmir81, what a stupendous question you pose to BrotherMoon - as follows"If Patsy truely is insane and truely thought that killing JonBenet was what God wanted her to do then why would she cover it up?

    ---->>>We have so many choices on the 'who done it' part of this crime.

    1. Patsy or any of the other women who did actually murder their children, it would seem to me were overtaxed and overburdened with responsibility and care, hence found themselves at the end of their own proverbial 'rope'. Look at Susan Smith, she found herself at the end of her emotional 'rope'. Could not deal with it all.

    My theory does not include Patsy doing murder purposefully under her end of the rope scenario.

    I do think she found herself at the end of 'a' rope, but someone handed it to her after the fact, hence, the note.

    I do think BlueCrab wherever he has gone, is barking up the correct tree.

    There is more to the murder of JonBenet than any of us have guessed at so far, or that we have any exact proof of so far.

    When a pet in the household goes poo poo in the house, it is typically the mom who cleans it all up and makes things tidy again. This is from my book of 'mom'.



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  16. sissi

    sissi Former Member

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  17. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    And how did you say your wife died, Brother Moon? Do tell us.

    Seriously, I had a strong hunch there was something like that. :innocent: Because of the extreme hostility.

    Maybe it's a quirk of my own, but I think if FBI experts and other "authorities" who know more about the case than we ever can feel sympathy for the R's, WHO ARE WE to second-guess them with such strong opinions that we know it all?

    Good thing we all have a statement to the effect it's just opinion, but if we're going to dream we can discover something new about the case, we need to be able to put aside any psychoses of our own and be unbiased.
     
  18. princessmer81

    princessmer81 New Member

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    Thanks for meth - info. Sissi.
    Wouldn't an intruder leave something behind though? A print, a hair, something? The theory I have the hardest time understanding is the intruder theory.
     
  19. sissi

    sissi Former Member

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    Oh but they did! There was animal fur in her hands,beaver hair on the tape, fibers on her person, shoe prints, palm prints, hair, and most importantly foreign dna in her underwear. None of these, have been sourced to anyone or anything in the Ramsey household.

    There are missing items that were used in the crime, a portion of the paintbrush, the rest of the cord and tape, and pages from the notepad used in the writing of the ransom note.

    There were several keys out, open windows and at least one door ajar to allow for entry. A baseball bat located outside was found to have fibers from the basement carpet on it. There were fibers vacuumed from her bed and found in the bag used to carry her body,as well, these fibers were from the brown sack found in the guest bedroom that contained rope along with fibers from the cord used to construct the garrotte.
    The problem isn't with lack of evidence, there is plenty, it seems more with the botched police job in those first days that set off leaks to the media suggesting the Ramseys did this.
     
  20. princessmer81

    princessmer81 New Member

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    Sissi - so is it your take that this was totally random, that the intruder didn't even know the Ramsey's and just ended up in their house because it was the easiest to get into?

    It seems to me that the Ramseys may have had some enemies - or at least people who really dissapproved of them. Is it possible that the intruder had intended to murder Patsy or John but ran into Jon Benet first? Maybe she was up to go to the bathroom and ran into the intruder?

    I am just all over the place today!
     
  21. sissi

    sissi Former Member

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    Anyone could have been the perp, I have had a few "favorite suspects" over the years, however I really don't know.
    Patsy is the favorite of so many that ya' almost feel that if she were on "who wants to be a millionaire" she would be the audiences choice;) Evidently she's a very unlikable figure.
    The note seemed to be written IMO before the murder, so that IMO only, would decrease the chance of Jonbenet just happening upon a burglar.
    A few of the characters, Pugh, Santa, Fleet,Wolf, and McElroy were really strange enough to bring them under my "umbrella". The twins, about who we know nothing , have always interested me, as well. They had the best "lookout" vantage, a place to run, perhaps a place to take the child for a kidnapping.

    From Thomas' depo
    Q. Did you ever seek to interview the Richardson twins who lived with Melody Stanton?

    A. No.

    Q. Why not?

    A. Because I was unaware of these people

    Q. Did anybody in the Boulder Police Department make an attempt, to your knowledge, to interview
    the two 30-year old twins, the Richardson twins, that lived with Melody Stanton?
    A. Not that I'm aware of.
     

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