Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Chelly]

eileenhawkeye:
Superb sleuthing and insight!
:loveyou:

 

[txsvicki]

The one big difference between JonBenet and the other children getting hit by another child. They most likely got immediate help, but died of the head trauma and not strangling with a sexual assault added at the very end. Imo, if Patsy really spoke to a bereaved Mom, she was just using her like she used everyone to help or promote herself.

 

[robotdog]

If there really is a voice from BR that asks "what did you find?"

that reaks of serious suspicion and major problems for BR

if he comes into the room and see his parents in a panic then how would he know that something had to be "found" wouldnt the more normal question be
"what is going on?" or "whats wrong"

"what did you find?" was more of a rhetorical in the sense of

"oh crap, I know what you MUST have found and yet im going to play dumb and ask huhh,, ahhhh i know what i did and you know what i did but lets pretend you know i didnt do anything.

know what i mean

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Re: the snippets of the article EileenHawkeye posted.

(Whether it's true or not) I find it interesting that in both examples the Ramseys gave for Patsy going and speaking to mothers of murdered children, both children were killed by other children.

I found that interesting as well!

 

[Tawny]

If there really is a voice from BR that asks "what did you find?"

that reaks of serious suspicion and major problems for BR

if he comes into the room and see his parents in a panic then how would he know that something had to be "found" wouldnt the more normal question be
"what is going on?" or "whats wrong"

"what did you find?" was more of a rhetorical in the sense of

"oh crap, I know what you MUST have found and yet im going to play dumb and ask huhh,, ahhhh i know what i did and you know what i did but lets pretend you know i didnt do anything.

know what i mean

I believe he had no idea about the ransom note, so when he heard PR state she found a RN, he was surprised and asked what she found. JMO! :moo:

 

[robotdog]

i think it was more along the lines of
"what did you find?" in the sense of "whatever you found it wasnt me that did anything"

:laugh:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Another thing about the article is it says the interview took place in a "rented apartment" so someone reading it will think that's the living arrangement the Ramseys can afford now. But the Ramseys were staying in the apartment while their huge Atlanta home was renovated.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Here's the first part of the interview:

http://m.rockymountainnews.com/news/2000/mar/19/archived-story-interview-john-and-patsy-ramsey-par/

There are more gems.

In this house, there are only two doors, and the windows don't open. The owners want it that way.

Downstairs, renovation is creating rooms that flow into each other through wide archways, so it's easy to see from one to the next. Upstairs, there is no hallway. The bedrooms - there are three - are separated by a small landing.

``There are no hiding places in this house,'' Patsy Ramsey says.

He used a stun gun on the child while she slept and took her to the basement, where he put a garotte around her neck and assaulted her. Then something went wrong, the Ramseys say. She must have regained consciousness and screamed - a scream heard by a neighbor - and was strangled. A powerful blow to her head ensured that she was dead.

I don't even think that's possible. If you are being strangled, you are pretty much a goner...what's the chance of you gaining consciousness, and being able to actually scream? You would be weak.

Investigators have at least six strong leads with powerful circumstantial evidence, John said. ``If the police would investigate the leads they have half as thoroughly as they've investigated us . . .''

``The year before that, I had said I could not stand the indignity of being charged with murder,'' John said. ``It would be more than I could endure. So over the course of the year, basically, our attorneys' job was to get me ready to endure that. We were fully prepared, mentally.''

``The system hasn't worked so far. We can't expect it's going to work now,'' their attorneys told them. ``But we'll tell you this with 100 percent certainty: You will not be convicted. We will win at trial. That is not even in question.''

``Anybody who's ever had a child, and thinks that, has to have rocks in their heads,'' Patsy said. ``I mean, I love my husband. But I adore, passionately, my children. And if he ever laid a hand on them, I'd knock his block off. People just don't use their common sense.''

Isn't one of the big theories that Patsy caught John molesting JBR, threw the flashlight, and hit JBR instead?

But both Ramseys agree it would be more tempting to cover up for your child than for your spouse.

``The love of a child is unconditional,'' John said. ``So that presents a much bigger dilemma, if you love that child unconditionally, and yet they've done this horrible thing. But if you love that child, you've got to get help for that child. It's a tougher question to think through.''

Hmmm....

``I never met the leadership. They refused to meet with us. Never met (former Detective Commander John) Eller, never met (former Chief Tom) Koby, never met (current Chief Mark) Beckner. But from the outside, I see a bunch of young, inexperienced but eager people who were very poorly led. They did a tragic job as a result.''

I have a feeling if this is true, it's because the Ramseys refused to meet with them.

``Because we didn't know where to go,'' John said. ``We were in a daze. All we were told was, `Leave the house. Get out of here.' ''

``If we were treated any better than anybody else, then . . . '' John said.

``I'd hate to be treated any worse,'' Patsy said.

OMG.

(The article also publishes a chronicle of how the Ramseys cooperated in the case, and then their responses to all the allegations against them)

 

[Tawny]

I'm no doctor or anything, but my understanding (and a little bit from my experience - long story) is that if you are being choked, either by hands or especially by something like a garrote, your airway is RESTRICTED which means you are physically unable to scream.

 

[mubblefubbles]

I believe that Patsy smacked her head against something in a rage... JR helped coverup because of the previous sexual abuse that he (JR) committed. I do not believe that BR had anything to do with it

It really is this simple. I've been a PDI since early 1997. I have occasionally veered into the BDI (with parental coverup) but the problem with this is there is zero evidence that Burke did anything. And - he was only 9 years old, and I do not think he could have done such a serious crime without going off the rails in his teenage and early adult years - and by all appearances he was a well-adjusted youth and did well in school, and graduated from college. Also, I think if Burke did it, his conscious would have gotten to him and he would have told SOMEONE - a close friend, a best friend, a counselor, etc, and I believe that this would have somehow leaked out. I cannot believe that Burke could have kept such a dark secret (even if it was an accidental head blow followed by a parental coverup) - such a juicy secret - for 17 years.
And - I do not believe the evidence suggests that John did the murder. The PDI theory sort of along the lines of Steve Thomas' theory - is basically a pretty straightforward theory and explains what really happened that night. I think people over-think what happened and come up with bizarre theories in this case, when it is pretty obvious that it was PDI with a small but possible chance of BDI (with joint parental coverup). I am confident though that John did not commit this murder. JDI theories have never even remotely made a bit of sense to me.

 

[chlban]

=

mubblefubbles;10152212]It really is this simple. I've been a PDI since early 1997. I have occasionally veered into the BDI (with parental coverup) but the problem with this is there is zero evidence that Burke did anything. And - he was only 9 years old, and I do not think he could have done such a serious crime without going off the rails in his teenage and early adult years - and by all appearances he was a well-adjusted youth and did well in school, and graduated from college. Also, I think if Burke did it, his conscious would have gotten to him and he would have told SOMEONE - a close friend, a best friend, a counselor, etc, and I believe that this would have somehow leaked out. I cannot believe that Burke could have kept such a dark secret (even if it was an accidental head blow followed by a parental coverup) - such a juicy secret - for 17 years.

Sociopaths don't have a conscious. I am not stating as any kind of fact that BR is a sociopath, however, that would explain the reason for not "going off the rails". Look at Scott Peterson. He brutally murdered his wife and unborn baby and was worried about making dates with his girlfriend a few days later.
Ted Bundy lived a "normal" life for years (except for his little sideline, of course) and was highly respected by many people.

And - I do not believe the evidence suggests that John did the murder. The PDI theory sort of along the lines of Steve Thomas' theory - is basically a pretty straightforward theory and explains what really happened that night. I think people over-think what happened and come up with bizarre theories in this case, when it is pretty obvious that it was PDI with a small but possible chance of BDI (with joint parental coverup). I am confident though that John did not commit this murder. JDI theories have never even remotely made a bit of sense to me

I actually agree with you in that. I have always leaned to PDI and some variation of the Steve Thomas Theory-initial injury was an "accident" an act of rage, and the rest was cover up. Like you, I have toyed with the BDI theory and I must admit the GJ indictments made me lean more strongly to that. So I would have to say I remain undecided between the two but still find myself leaning back to PDI.

One thing that has always made sense to me with the PDI is that John was not involved in the initial cover up. In that theory Patsy wrote the RN, and all the other staging. She moved JB to the basement in order to mitigate any risk of John waking up and "catching" her in the staging. That explains that ludicrous note, which I have never been able to reconcile with John being aware of it ahead of time. He was too smart.

However, I think once he read the note, and recognized not only his wife's writing but her style, that he knew something was terribly wrong and that certainly by the time he brought the body up he "knew" full well that Patsy had done it.

I find I always lean back to this. It has never made sense to me that John comitted the crime and I have always thought if he was involved, from the beginning, in the cover up that RN would never have been found.

 

[Tawny]

I believe BR doesn't remember exactly, because there have been people *ahem* in his ear telling him something different from the truth. If you're told it enough times and early enough after, you will remember things differently. What he's been told, I couldn't say, but I bet whatever it was at least muddied up what he remembers.

That plus the incredible ability of the brain to completely block out terrible memories and he may honestly not remember one single detail, which would make him believe he really WAS asleep like his parents have said all along.

All :moo:

 

[romanticnovel2014]

I am really stuck on one of the help being the one who killed Jonbonet, I don't feel that any on in the immediate family did it, because it was a crime of rage....and I feel that jealousy was involved. John Ramsey was making a lot of money and someone knew about it and I think someone that was a little closer than most of the help...I thought of this when the killing happened...

 

[icedtea4me]

I'm hesitant to vote because it doesn't look like my option is there. I am of the opinion that Patsy caught John and JonBenet in a sexual act, chaos ensued, and Patsy caused the head injury. She and John probably weighed their options, decided that they couldn't talk to anyone about their situation, so then John strangled her with the garotte ("beheaded her") thus getting his hands dirty too.

 

[Estelle]

I'm hesitant to vote because it doesn't look like my option is there. I am of the opinion that Patsy caught John and JonBenet in a sexual act, chaos ensued, and Patsy caused the head injury. She and John probably weighed their options, decided that they couldn't talk to anyone about their situation, so then John strangled her with the garotte ("beheaded her") thus getting his hands dirty too.

I have always thought that Burke was innocent as I have never heard that a 9yo boy could be a psychopath and like previous posters have said, he could not have done so well at school and in society ever since. If he had been the one who had sexually molested her, he would now probably be a sex addict or pedophile. Such acts would have been stored in his subconscious mind and the effects would come out sooner or later with or without a conscience and affect his behaviour.

IMO the perpetrators were adults. There was IMO no evidence of DNA by anyone besides Patsy and John. I realise that it is difficult to believe that a parent would do this to a child and the other parent would help to cover it up but it does happen much too often.

I am also of the opinion that Patsy caught John in a sexual act with JBR. Perhaps it had been going on for some time especially if Patsy had ignored it before and had not wanted to be available for her husband's pleasure - hence one of the reasons to sexualise your daughter if you do not want sex with your husband.

However, when a child starts school at the age of 6yo, there is a big chance that she will tell her teachers something and expose it. Maybe Patsy had asked him to stop doing it, he agreed but could not help himself and kept doing it.

So on this night, Patsy caught him doing it again and she exploded in anger thinking that JBR might tell her teachers or others. Hence the need to cover up the sexual abuse before JBR has a chance to expose it to anyone. IMO this is the reason why JBR had to die and what happened later was all about covering up the sexual abuse. In other words, the only way to cover it up was to murder JBR and blame it on an intruder. This scenario is a more common scenario in society than many of the others stated here.

 

[Anyhoo]

I have always thought that Burke was innocent as I have never heard that a 9yo boy could be a psychopath and like previous posters have said, he could not have done so well at school and in society ever since. If he had been the one who had sexually molested her, he would now probably be a sex addict or pedophile. Such acts would have been stored in his subconscious mind and the effects would come out sooner or later with or without a conscience and affect his behaviour.

IMO the perpetrators were adults. There was IMO no evidence of DNA by anyone besides Patsy and John. I realise that it is difficult to believe that a parent would do this to a child and the other parent would help to cover it up but it does happen much too often.

I am also of the opinion that Patsy caught John in a sexual act with JBR. Perhaps it had been going on for some time especially if Patsy had ignored it before and had not wanted to be available for her husband's pleasure - hence one of the reasons to sexualise your daughter if you do not want sex with your husband.

However, when a child starts school at the age of 6yo, there is a big chance that she will tell her teachers something and expose it. Maybe Patsy had asked him to stop doing it, he agreed but could not help himself and kept doing it.

So on this night, Patsy caught him doing it again and she exploded in anger thinking that JBR might tell her teachers or others. Hence the need to cover up the sexual abuse before JBR has a chance to expose it to anyone. IMO this is the reason why JBR had to die and what happened later was all about covering up the sexual abuse. In other words, the only way to cover it up was to murder JBR and blame it on an intruder. This scenario is a more common scenario in society than many of the others stated here.

If the scenario you describe were the case, one would think that PR would choose to confront it at a time after the vacation they were taking the next day. Also, IMO JR would be much more concerned about the exposure than PR, so I could see JR killing her to cover up the sexual abuse, and then blaming it on an intruder.

 

[mubblefubbles]

If the scenario you describe were the case, one would think that PR would choose to confront it at a time after the vacation they were taking the next day. Also, IMO JR would be much more concerned about the exposure than PR, so I could see JR killing her to cover up the sexual abuse, and then blaming it on an intruder.

It isn't plausible that JR committed this crime. Patsy wrote the note, and if JDI then she decided to cover up for John - and I think this is a fantastical idea. JDI theorists believe that Patsy would cover for John in order to maintain her status and her lifestyle. But, Patsy would have done great during a divorce, getting half of John's considerable assets plus child/spousal support.
Patsy did the crime (a rage/accident killing IMO), and John felt compelled to cover for Patsy because Patsy "had something" on John (she knew about the molesting, and she was always a risk to reveal this molesting if John ever dared think about telling the police the truth about Patsy doing the crime).
JDI is more plausible than IDI, but that isn't saying much. If I could break down a percentage of likelihood, it would be 90% PDI, 9% BDI and .99% JDI and .01% IDI The odds that John did it are very slim, but the odds of an intruder doing it are absolutely astronomical.
I can't rule Burke out completely - but he was 9 years old and has been very well-adjusted after this crime. I actually think Burke thinks his parents are innocent of any wrongdoing and that it really was an intruder. If Burke thought his parents did this, I can imagine him being more than willing to talk about it, especially since so many out there suspect him of doing the crime. In this case an innocent Burke who believes his parents (one, the other or both) killed his sister would be at some level angry that there are those calling him a killer. He'd talk.

 

[AmandaFast]

I know there is history of sexual abuse but did any history of physical abuse ever come up? I went to find a recent picture of Burke on google images and a picture of JBR modeling came up and there was a large black and blue bruise on her inner left bicep. Was curious if this was ever brought up before?

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[UKGuy]

It isn't plausible that JR committed this crime. Patsy wrote the note, and if JDI then she decided to cover up for John - and I think this is a fantastical idea. JDI theorists believe that Patsy would cover for John in order to maintain her status and her lifestyle. But, Patsy would have done great during a divorce, getting half of John's considerable assets plus child/spousal support.
Patsy did the crime (a rage/accident killing IMO), and John felt compelled to cover for Patsy because Patsy "had something" on John (she knew about the molesting, and she was always a risk to reveal this molesting if John ever dared think about telling the police the truth about Patsy doing the crime).
JDI is more plausible than IDI, but that isn't saying much. If I could break down a percentage of likelihood, it would be 90% PDI, 9% BDI and .99% JDI and .01% IDI The odds that John did it are very slim, but the odds of an intruder doing it are absolutely astronomical.
I can't rule Burke out completely - but he was 9 years old and has been very well-adjusted after this crime. I actually think Burke thinks his parents are innocent of any wrongdoing and that it really was an intruder. If Burke thought his parents did this, I can imagine him being more than willing to talk about it, especially since so many out there suspect him of doing the crime. In this case an innocent Burke who believes his parents (one, the other or both) killed his sister would be at some level angry that there are those calling him a killer. He'd talk.

mubblefubbles,
The who killed JonBenet and when is an open question? Some have highlighted a time gap between the head bash and an asphyxiation, as if two different people were involved and adopted different strategies?

I think all three R's knew JonBenet was being molested. We hear from LHP regarding BR playing doctors beneath the bedcovers. We have PR recieving advice from others about JonBenet's behaviour. Whatever JR knew is opaque, yet PR publicly defended him in public stating he was never left alone with JonBenet, when PR was hospitalised, Nedra Paugh chaperoned JonBenet by sleeping in her room?

There are unexplained injuries on JonBenet's body. these I think were caused by a fight, possibly a struggle to free herself from being molested, resulting in her being constrained by her neck?

Consequently JonBenet lapsed into unconciousness and never revived, this led to one of the parents whacking her on the head to fake her death, it failed for whatever reason, next up, with that time gap, was the asphyxiation, then JonBenet was transferred to the basement, out of sight a precondition for her kidnapping.

The R's were patently attempting to save the family unit from public ridicule and humiliation, including possible imprisonment.

Mutual agreement would only surely be reached if both parents were acting to save their remaining child, BR?

Assuming its BDI, and that all three R's took part, then there are two main permutations:

1. BR, 2. JR, 3. PR.

1. BR, 2. PR, 3. JR.

Either permutation maps onto the three main events, by its number:

1. Fight, 2. Head Bash, and 3. Ligature Asphyxiation.

There is forensic evidence on JonBenet that is consistent with JR and PR taking part in the staging and death of JonBenet. And very little implicating BR, although his touch-dna is on the pink barbie nightgown dumped in the wine-cellar, all this is consistent with JonBenet being cleaned up and wiped down to remove most incriminating evidence.

So if it is not BDI it most definitely is either JDI or PDI or a joint enterprise by both parents?

You decide!


.

 

[BBB167893]

I know there is history of sexual abuse but did any history of physical abuse ever come up? I went to find a recent picture of Burke on google images and a picture of JBR modeling came up and there was a large black and blue bruise on her inner left bicep. Was curious if this was ever brought up before?

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There's a photo of Patsy holding JB's arm very tightly in the same area.