Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

Thank you for explaining the body position to us.

Also I forgot to mention you as one of my heroes for Justice for JonBenet. Thank you...You inspire me every day to do better for JonBenet!

JMO

You are most welcome! We all want the same thing here, IDI or RDI. We want the case solved and the killer(s) brought to justice if possible - and the truth and corruption exposed.

 

[DeeDee249]

One other thing to consider about her arms. The process of rigor mortis will cause the muscles to ratchet tighter and tighter as the lactic acid builds up in the muscles. In some cases, this process can actually pull the arms up just as they are in the crime scene photo taken on the rug. She is wearing her shirt in the photos and she was seen by the coroner fully clothed at first encounter. Her clothes were removed on the autopsy table, so only then would any livor mortis pattern be seen on the back of her arms. I do not recall any mention of this in the autopsy report. But if there was a livor pattern on the back (posterior) part of her arms, that would indicate her arms might have been either down at her sides or the position in the drawing or poor little Teddy.

 

[tezi]

You are most welcome! We all want the same thing here, IDI or RDI. We want the case solved and the killer(s) brought to justice if possible - and the truth and corruption exposed.

Thank you DeeDee249, you have said exactly what is in my heart!!

JMO

 

[FrayedKnot]

Thank you DeeDee249, you have said exactly what is in my heart!!

JMO

I agree that intelligent debate is always welcomed and respected.

 

[otg]

If anyone is interested in reading more on the position of JonBenet's arms, there is an entire thread discussing it at FFJ. Started by koldkase, it has lots of information and photos for discussion:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10197"]Arms in rigor 2 - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[FrayedKnot]

Linda. G*d bless your heart and that of your teddy bear. That is one for the vault, girl! You are a gem!

 

[tezi]

This crime is just so....odd. A lot of things are plausible. A lot doesn't seem to make sense. Why even try to cover a head bash? Was it even trying to be covered? :dunno:
It's like a game of clue.

RBBM: Yes, it is..

JMO

 

[tezi]

I agree that intelligent debate is always welcomed and respected.

I have had a lot of intelligent debates here. This one has been one of the best. We all have our own theory, and we have been discussing it without getting all upset. I think we've done a great job tonight. Hopefully, the mods haven't had to watch us because they have a lot of stuff to do!

If anyone is interested in reading more on the position of JonBenet's arms, there is an entire thread discussing it at FFJ. Started by koldkase, it has lots of information and photos for discussion:

Arms in rigor 2 - Forums For Justice

otg, thank you for all of the links. They are very helpful...Helps me remember stuff I have forgotten...

JMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda. G*d bless your heart and that of your teddy bear. That is one for the vault, girl! You are a gem!

Even the dog was watching me ( like I was insane) as I was tying up teddy! Thank goodness my husband or son didn't walk downstairs and see me.

Hubby is still annoyed at me from when I asked him to get naked and lay on the floor so I could see if I could drag him across it. ( Jodi Arias & yes I could drag him)

 

[tezi]

Even the dog was watching me ( like I was insane) as I was tying up teddy! Thank goodness my husband or son didn't walk downstairs and see me.

Hubby is still annoyed at me from when I asked him to get naked and lay on the floor so I could see if I could drag him across it. ( Jodi Arias & yes I could drag him)

BBM: OK, I think I am going to turn in tonight...I am laughing instead of crying..My husband thinks I am insane also. You should see my notes and books all over my desk...For the love of everything holy, it looks like I am sort of hoarder...All of this trying to find a reference for something I need...And you here you are reenacting a crime with your husband as the "crash test dummy!" LOL

JMO

 

[Chelly]

Even the dog was watching me ( like I was insane) as I was tying up teddy! Thank goodness my husband or son didn't walk downstairs and see me.

Hubby is still annoyed at me from when I asked him to get naked and lay on the floor so I could see if I could drag him across it. ( Jodi Arias & yes I could drag him)

Hummm. I recall you telling us he was a "willing" participant...LOL:floorlaugh:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Even the dog was watching me ( like I was insane) as I was tying up teddy! Thank goodness my husband or son didn't walk downstairs and see me.

Hubby is still annoyed at me from when I asked him to get naked and lay on the floor so I could see if I could drag him across it. ( Jodi Arias & yes I could drag him)

:lol: poor hubby.

True dedication!!!!

:websleuther:

 

[SapphireSteel]

didn't the FBI call this evidence "staging within staging"? (does anyone have the source for the original quote?)

sorry sapphire, but i'll defer to their education, experience and expertise on this one.

The FBI would know I suppose. :dunno:

It's a pity this knowledge didn't translate into an arrest but I guess you can't have everything.

I personally just cannot understand why someone would stage like that. It's so clumsy and time consuming.

I also have a very odd personal experience that makes me wonder about what exactly was done to JB, which I will now share.

I once had a friend who did day care and she invited me over to see some children she was looking after.

It was the oddest thing I'd ever seen. Here's our kids (3,4,5 years old) running around like chooks with their heads cut off, but these two siblings just sat silently amongst the crowd.

It wasn't just that they sat there, totally disengaged, that was so remarkable - it was also the way they sat.

Both of these little children (about 2 and 3 from memory, a boy and a girl) literally sat at the kiddie table with their arms held up at right angles.

Literally. The exact same unnatural, unmoving position. Like boxers.

They were eating fruit at the time and I can recall them carefully picking up a piece, putting in their mouths, and putting their arms back into the right angle position, suspended in midair.

Exactly like they had their dukes up...exactly.

All we could think at this incredibly odd, shared behaviour (and there were other things that just weren't right) was that they were being tied up in that position at home. My friend reported her suspicions but nothing ever came of it.

It was that odd. I've never seen anything like it. Totally unnatural child behaviour, more like something someone with dementia would do.

They were almost like puppets on a string, now I come to think about it.

:scared:

 

[Venom]

That's weird.

 

[redheadedgal]

The FBI would know I suppose. :dunno:

:dunno:

this is an interesting thread where staging is discussed... and it's where madeleine fell off the fence !! :woot:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118135"]Is this what the one/ones who staged it had in mind?? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[madeleine]

The only way the ligatures and garrotte makes sense (to me) is if it was part of the abuse. Then, it makes perfect sense.

They didn't add them afterwards, they neglected to remove them - until JR started picking at them that is. Maybe they imagined it was something a "kidnapper" would do anyway.

It really is the only thing that explains them. They weren't part of the staging at all, but part of the crime.

:cow:

yeah but in this case their TDNA would have been all over the rope,stick,etc IMO
it's why my "dog leash/game went wrong/BDI" scenario went down the toilet...his TDNA and prints would have been on the stick

 

[madeleine]

Even the dog was watching me ( like I was insane) as I was tying up teddy! Thank goodness my husband or son didn't walk downstairs and see me.

Hubby is still annoyed at me from when I asked him to get naked and lay on the floor so I could see if I could drag him across it. ( Jodi Arias & yes I could drag him)

lol the things we do for this case
you're not the only one who reconstructed the crime on a toy:blushing:
I even tied up my husband's hands once because I was having trouble with understanding how the knots were made:facepalm:

 

[tezi]

Hummm. I recall you telling us he was a "willing" participant...LOL:floorlaugh:

I am sure he was...snicker...LOL

LOL

 

[2 percent]

lol the things we do for this case
you're not the only one who reconstructed the crime on a toy:blushing:
I even tied up my husband's hands once because I was having trouble with understanding how the knots were made:facepalm:

Hahahaha me too!

It was the Darlie Routier case for me. Darlie claims she was attacked by a man and had her neck slit from under her left ear almost to the other side. The weapon was what they called a butcher knife, I call a chef's knife. You know, the one in the butcher's block that is the widest blade and usually the biggest.

Anyway, I had my husband lay on the couch the way Darlie described while I tried, first, to slash his neck (don't panic, I used a ruler). Second, I had him fight me like she said she was doing trying to see if there should be more injuries to both her and the fake leather couch. Last, I did a very interesting test. Darlie had bruises on the inside of her arms from armpit to knuckles. The assumption was that the intruder/murderer held her with his legs but I tried to sit on my husbands arm with my knees. I found the legs (from knee down, kneeling) just weren't long enough to cause all of the bruises unless the intruder/murderer was moving up and down her arms while kneeling.

Sometimes you have to test to understand. And sometimes you have to test to challenge assumptions.

Unfortunately I created a monster. My husband insisted on showing me all of the mistakes I made in my test :waiting:
You can imagine how it turned out :slapfight:

 

[SapphireSteel]

yeah but in this case their TDNA would have been all over the rope,stick,etc IMO
it's why my "dog leash/game went wrong/BDI" scenario went down the toilet...his TDNA and prints would have been on the stick

First of all, the only thing the presence of that TDNA proves, is that there is TDNA.

It can't prove who deposited it, when, how, or even if that person was in the room - only that their DNA has been found.

You're also presuming he/she did not wear gloves while handling the body and the Ramseys are entirely uninvolved (the TDNA found was not Ramsey).

They don't always find DNA or useable fingerprints. In some crime scenes there is absolutely nothing. It most certainly cannot be used to prove innocence, unless of course the DNA is inside the corpse in the way of semen...in which case, it's not TDNA, but complete.

Some things take fingerprints, some don't. A rope surface would not because it is too coarse.

Then, there's the expected forensics. Folks actually living in a house leave DNA and fingerprints everywhere. The presence of Ramsey TDNA on JB would mean nothing, ditto their fingerprints in the basement.

Saying "it can't be part of the crime as there is no matching TDNA to the TDNA on her underwear" is a mistake.

:cow: