Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

[Inspector_North]

We can never get inside a jury's collective head, but I would be surprised at M2 because there is literally zero evidence that MS was directly involved in Laura's death. M1 could flow from the planning aspect if the jury accepts that there was a plan to kill Laura that MS was aware of, and in furtherance of that plan he helped source and test incinerators and helped dispose of Laura's remains. I can see manslaughter on the logic that MS may not have been in on a plan to kill Laura but his actions were so negligent with regard to helping with the incinerator beforehand that he should have foreseen that a person might die even without his direct involvement. And of course an acquittal is always possible as well. M2 would be the biggest head scratcher for me of all four possibilities.

BBM

Many of us are frustrated by what has been omitted due to the unusual circumstances of multiple murders, and the nebulous lingo they used in their text messages. I know that the jury can only use what was presented during the evidence phase, but it's hard to not find MS a partner in TB and LB murders when you have a bird's eye view of their progressive criminal activity over the years.

I would sure like to know more about the conversations these two had around the time they were exchanging these texts. Including the dates. MOO

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/sta...n-what-the-laura-babcock-jury-wasnt-told.html

“I’m down to merk (murder) people if it’s a big enough payoff,” Millard texted Smich in early 2012.


From Smich to Millard: “Like I said, this is only the beginning. I’m makin us a team, an army. You kno. We will be proper soon. Nobody can f--- with Say10 and Dman.”

 

[MsSherlock]

We're still a distance away from breaking any records - but every day seems like a week!

http://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...eration-among-the-longest-in-canadian-history

 

[JuneBug67]

Thx - I did not realize that DO excludes offence of murder. But I see that below...


Source:https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/2009-pcmg/index-en.aspx#a2.1.2

Yeah, it's not intuitive at first but it makes sense once you realize that DO status is designed to keep people in prison who are dangerous but might otherwise be released. Murder sentences are 25 to life with parole eligibility only - no mandatory release date as for other crimes. So you can can keep a murderer in prison for as long as necessary to protect the public without any additional mechanism like DO status.

 

[ab-initio]

BBM

I would sure like to know more about the conversations these two had around the time they were exchanging these texts. Including the dates. MOO

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/sta...n-what-the-laura-babcock-jury-wasnt-told.html

“I’m down to merk (murder) people if it’s a big enough payoff,” Millard texted Smich in early 2012.


From Smich to Millard: “Like I said, this is only the beginning. I’m makin us a team, an army. You kno. We will be proper soon. Nobody can f--- with Say10 and Dman.”

I think MS felt important and MAYBE almost like an equal partner in this venture -- DM may have had the capital and the means, but MS had the street connections.

I feel very strongly that the "making us a team, an army" part refers to the slew of hookups he had on the street for DM; namely, MWJ.
Like, who just knows an arms dealer?

I think these messages likely came before the DM to MS text referencing meeting MWJ wherein he says something about starting to think he's holding out on him as a means of power.

The evidence points to DM, surely. But I wholeheartedly believe DM when he said he could say 100 things about MS, but didn't.
It's got to be frustrating knowing that your partner is as much of a partner as he is, but the people who are deciding your fate likely don't see it that way due to presented evidence.

 

[JuneBug67]

I think that the Crown thought they had enough evidence for M1 but they could not have envisioned some of the most incriminating pieces being disallowed.

In some ways it's not much of a gamble of anything more than tax dollars - and Laura is worth our tax dollars. If they get a hung jury they can almost certainly negotiate a plea of AATF if they don't want to try for murder again. So they do their best for M1, and if not they can almost certainly get AATF if they want it. I guess the only real risk is of an outright acquittal. As DeaconBrodie says, that may be a stretch.

 

[tommyR]

NOBODY gets into teaching for the pay! They're paid much, much less than they deserve, have hardly any opportunity for promotion, zero bonuses or rewards for a job well done & pretty subpar benefits. The summers off are forced vacation time that they are NOT paid for.

In Alberta, high school teachers with 10 years experience earn $99,300 per year. A year is 10 months.
In BC that same teacher earns $81,500
And the benefits are far from subpar.

 

[DeaconBrodie]

In some ways it's not much of a gamble of anything more than tax dollars - and Laura is worth our tax dollars. If they get a hung jury they can almost certainly negotiate a plea of AATF if they don't want to try for murder again. So they do their best for M1, and if not they can almost certainly get AATF if they want it. I guess the only real risk is of an outright acquittal. As DeaconBrodie says, that may be a stretch.

We're traveling kind of far down the road now but if DM is convicted of M1 and the jury hangs on MS and the Crown retries him, it would be a brand new trial with different considerations because DM would no longer be there and it is entirely possible that the new judge with different considerations might allow more evidence in the new trial than Code did in this one.

Also, who knows, but DM may even volunteer to show up and testify against his former bro.......

 

[StrongerThanAll]

Some of the stuff that was kept from the jury makes sense, but other things I don't understand at all. The 3500 thing at the Bosma trial, the whole 'merk' thing for both.

 

[canadiangirl]

I've tried to review the trial without emotion and excluding any knowledge of the TB trial or DM or MS. I came to these conclusions:

LB is no longer with us
DM killed her
MS may not have directly killed her but was there so could also go down for M1.

I couldn't figure out if enough evidence was presented to meet the criteria for M1 for MS.

I'd love to hear others thoughts as they process the trial like a juror should!

I agree with you with the exception I'm not sure MS was there at the time of the murder. MOO

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[inbetweendoors]

Lisa Hepfner @HefCHCHNews
35 mins ago

Jury is on lunch until 2:30pm. #LauraBabcock

 

[Coldpizza]

:judge: I realize this may or may not be a long wait for a verdict but please stay on topic folks.

Thank you

 

[canadiangirl]

They cannot beleive that Laura is still alive.
She would not have done this to her family I don't believe it at all. she would not be that cruel.
That story was just made up by the accused , like the crazy story by MS about burying the gun in the forest.

I don't know why people feel the story is crazy about MS burying the gun in the forest. I for one think he told the truth. Oakville has lots of trails especially where he lives. He rode his bike or walked everywhere. I think he got scared and buried it. Then told someone else where to find it. (maybe Ish). That's JMO but it's part of the story I actually believe

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[canadiangirl]

I think MS felt important and MAYBE almost like an equal partner in this venture -- DM may have had the capital and the means, but MS had the street connections.

I feel very strongly that the "making us a team, an army" part refers to the slew of hookups he had on the street for DM; namely, MWJ.
Like, who just knows an arms dealer?

I think these messages likely came before the DM to MS text referencing meeting MWJ wherein he says something about starting to think he's holding out on him as a means of power.

The evidence points to DM, surely. But I wholeheartedly believe DM when he said he could say 100 things about MS, but didn't.
It's got to be frustrating knowing that your partner is as much of a partner as he is, but the people who are deciding your fate likely don't see it that way due to presented evidence.

Doesn't MS know the arms dealer because he went to school with him and MWJ said he hung out with MS sister?

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[ab-initio]

Doesn't MS know the arms dealer because he went to school with him and MWJ said he hung out with MS sister?

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Yep, I believe so.

 

[MsSherlock]

We're still a distance away from breaking any records - but every day seems like a week!

http://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...eration-among-the-longest-in-canadian-history

I forgot it took the Picton Jury 9 days to reach a verdict- that would have taken me 1 minute. MOO

 

[Linike]

I agree with you with the exception I'm not sure MS was there at the time of the murder. MOO

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Was it not said that MS did not have to commit the murder, but being there and knowing that it was going to happen, that would give a M1?

 

[canadiangirl]

Was it not said that MS did not have to commit the murder, but being there and knowing that it was going to happen, that would give a M1?

Yes but I'm not sure there was enough evidence to show he knew DM was going to murder LB

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[canadiangirl]

I forgot it took the Picton Jury 9 days to reach a verdict- that would have taken me 1 minute. MOO

From that article

If jurors get sick or need to be hospitalized, they are taken for care, but still while being escorted by a guard (backup jurors are also sequestered and can substitute for jurors too ill to continue). Verret said it’s not usually permitted to speak to family members unless there is an extreme circumstance, and a judge must approve any such communication. Communication with the judge must be done by letter, sent by the special constables.


It never occurred to me the backup jurors can't go home either yet. How frustrating for them. To listen to the entire trial. Have no input on the verdict. And be literally alone until the decision is made.

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[BeKind_BeWell]

This is a long post but you don’t have to read it. Thanks in advance if you did. All of course a MOO.

I followed the Bosma case and some other high profile cases. I have read this board sometimes but rarely commented (well, I did once recently because I couldn’t understand why people were getting so sucked by drama when you can use IL in your settings). I have a lot of respect for most people here and have learned quite a bit. Thank you for your expertise and practical experience. As interested as I am and cannot seem to stop following this case, I agree it is exhausting to try and keep up - I don't have time to read everything or all the links.

I am well aware that for any case, any situation involving the utter depths of depravity, there is a dividing line of comprehension that we simply cannot cross. When I say “we”, I mean those with a kind, loving heart; a decent and good person. We are unable to go there because it is too awful. Quite frankly, it is a level of understanding that I do not want to have.

My heart goes out to the families of TB and LB (to name just a couple of victims). For the victims to die like they did, for the families to lose their loved ones in this way is an endless pain that surpasses all comprehension if you are not them and their very hearts--regardless of the compassion we feel and extend to them.

The convictions in this case will bring some sort of closure but their pain will be ever present and enduring. If you’ve lost a very close loved one (I have, more than one) by non-violent means, it is always hard no matter how much time passes. Yes, life does go on but pain and grief are deep and everyone is different in how they cope and survive and not sinking into the depths of despair. For TB, LB and other families who have this horror in their lives, I can try but really not know how inexpressibly hellish it would be to lose a loved one to the most unimaginable extremes of evil. Day in, day out, it would never leave you. Even when you think of and do other things, it would be ever present.

I have faith that the jury will find DM guilty of M1. As for MS, I am not so sure that they will for M1. I don’t think there is enough but based on the before and after and the Judge’s charge, I think this jury could see their way to M1 for MS. While most of us say we would, and just as others have observed, it will be a challenge to get all twelve to agree on MS. I can see how his involvement seems peripheral at times, not fully informed: do as your told, don’t ask questions. Highly impressionable, eager to be loved and to please (absent father, never a strong man in his life? Not condoning his behaviour at all, just saying). Someone finally wants to be on his side, support him, and elevate his aspiring rap artist dreams.

It seems probable that DM did not count on MS for the ultra serious stuff: the heavy lifting if you will, that had to be done to perfection. I think there was a deep-seated need (understatement – I can’t even go there) by DM to do this on his own. This included drawing LB back into his life, charming, seducing, and murdering her; transporting and hiding her body. For all his reckless wrecking machines, arson (alleged and likely...didn't he also tamper with the brakes of someone's vehicle?), and stealing things, LB was going to be easy for him. She was extremely vulnerable and had already confessed to him her “love” (it is so sad to call it that though it was very real for her) and that he never had to question or return the feelings or affection, he could just use her. In truth, she could have NOT been mentally troubled and he would have still succeeded in drawing her in (yes, blind stupid “love&#8221, such was her infatuation. She reached out for a place(s) to stay hoping to get a ‘yes’ from who knows, maybe doesn’t even expect to hear back from him, and the worst happens. I don’t recall from the timeline if she did the original reaching out in those days leading up to or if DM did. Regardless, I fully believe he enticed her saying they’d go away together, maybe leave the next morning or that night, and she came prepared. It would be simple to say he ditched CN and needed to get away. (And if it was let’s leave tonight but oops, forgot my bag, need to drop back by my place before we go to the airport.) Romance and intimacy would have also been straightforward, she was so blinded (drugs or no drugs) and such were their appetites and during this is when he probably killed her.

For MS, the quiet time that evening can both suggest his culpability in LB’s murder and not at all. If MM was around, it was a matter of hanging out with her and keeping her away from the other parts of the house. (MM being present or not was never confirmed because she could not recall and the “brainstorming” letter from DM to CN means nothing about her presence yay/nay – she did as she was told and turned a blind eye). The “don’t be out front” could actually mean he didn’t want MS to know WHO it was he brought back, hence MS would never be able to identify her. Be somewhere else in the house for the element of surprise doesn’t quite make sense with the “on a mission, back in an hour” & "where you at?" texts. MS may have known what was going down but not directly involved in the murder.

MS clearly aided in certain ways, to name a few: assisted with cleanup, connection for acquiring drugs, guns, “researching” the incinerator. I know it is hard to believe, but in the beginning this could still have been naïve, led to believe by DM that it was for vets’ pet cremation businesses, the same way DM lied to SS (the latter who seemed to have asked few, if any questions. SS did as he was told, but agreed, he probably knew more than can be proved). With the post-trial revelation of the merk (murder) text, MS eventually knew DM’s aims and had agreed to some degree. I think the confession of how far he really wanted to go, from DM to MS, came out when someone like AM said no (maybe it’s even why AM went to--fled to?--Winnipeg? Get me the hell outta here, a distance as far as possible). What also floors me is how much DM flaunted AM as his best bud during his lawyering in this trial, intending to hurt MS, but almost as if he (DM) couldn’t infer AM’s knowledge of things illegal/evil anymore strongly! It led lawyer TD to fully drive home the point (to the effect): “MS was a hired hand who did menial jobs!” It seems clear that DM gradually drew MS and his (presumed) vulnerability and drug-induced haze into the sinister web. There was already a drug connection and thefts, it was probably not much of a stretch if he could get basic interest and agreement, then onto “next level stuff”. That all happened no doubt in the bar they would go to. That's where DM eventually drew MS in and if he didn't take to it, probably would have joked/not being serious, was drunk/drugged, just talking ***** bro. Unfortunately they became the “perfect storm” as has been said of other murdering partners.

 

[Georgeo]

I forgot it took the Picton Jury 9 days to reach a verdict- that would have taken me 1 minute. MOO

Me too!!