Lebanon - At least nine killed and close to 3,000 injured after pager explotions, 17 september 2024

[GRT]

Except Israel targeted Hezbollah-carrying pagers and walkie-talkies only, NOT innocent little kids.
There is a significant difference.
The missiles sent by Lebanon (Iran's proxy ?) target civilian areas.
It's possible the Hezbollah were detonated at a time when many of the terrorist pagers carriers were about to receive an important, vital communique from their higher ups, lord and master, supreme leader, etc.
Omo.

RSBM

When Lebanon sent missiles that targeted civilian areas -- it was unacceptable. But that's a different thread.

Yes, Israel did target Hezbollah-carrying pagers and walkie-talkies, but not "only" because they could not know who would eventually be killed or maimed.

I'm not interested in arguing "they did it first" scenarios because unacceptable is unacceptable in my book, and justification of any sort leads to escalation and more innocent deaths.

Booby traps violate international humanitarian law, and for the same reasons we're seeing a lot of condemnation against the pager/walkie-talkie attacks. Too indiscriminate. The pagers may have been issued to Hezbollah, but no one could guarantee where those persons (or pagers) would be when they were detonated.

That's why we're seeing a large number of civilian casualties. And that's unacceptable in my book.

 

[Vern]

I think anyone who decides that there is an acceptable number of children to murder is fundamentally different to myself. I don't care who they are or where they're from or what justification they give.

The acceptable number of children to murder is zero. And I don't think that should be a controversial position.

MOO

I appreciate your thoughts on this subject and that you wish to hold both sides to the same standards unlike many who always seem to want one side to abide by the rules of The Law Of Armed Conflict and other applicable International Laws governing warfare while ignoring or minimizing the atrocities committed by the other.

Warfare is certainly what is being experienced in this 'region'. I use the term 'region' being Israel-proper and those bordering states harbouring terrorist entities (Iran Axis: Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas etc) who've been launching rockets into Israel-proper since 7 Oct 23 and who Israel has therefore been responding to.

International Law and LoAC makes clear the distinction between 'murder' and 'targetting'. It is illegal during warfare to deliberately target non-combatants (this is where innocent civilians, women, kids and non-fighting males would fit). LoAC also deals with propertionality (porportional does not mean "equal") as well as 'dumb bombs/technology' vs. 'smart bombs/technology'. The deliberate targetting of non-combatants via dumb bombs is illegal (ie: it's 'murder') during warfare and is considered a war crime. Witness the recent murder of 12 Druze children killed by a Hezbollah rocket into their soccer pitch.

Likewise, the LoAC also covers the use of 'booby traps' due to them being indiscriminate in their 'targetting'. In this case, we have nothing like I experienced in Bosnia, for example, where toys and cans of pop were booby trapped and therefore enticed children, vice combatants, to pick them up and set them off, and be horrificly injured or murdered by the resultant explosion. In this case, what is being experienced is a deliberate compromise of pagers and walkie talkies ordered by Hezbollah terrorists, for distribution to their members and carrying by their members for communication purposes in furtherance of their attacks on Israel. Thus they are simply not 'indeliberate booby traps' targetting anyone who was a non-combatant, rather they are/were very much 'targetted' items for a legitimately targetted group whom Israel has the right to defend itself against.

While I am saddened by the deaths of two children in this Israeli operation I am also aware and acknowledge that they were not 'targetted'. I appreciate that the Israelis effected the detonation of these devices at a time when most children would have been in school and thus apart from their family member who is part of a terrorist organisation. As for all the ("innocent") males killed by their pager and or walkie-talkie, they'll have to explain their side-hustle of having and wearing Hezbollah Direct Line of Communication devices in their pockets/on their person.

 

[Chimera]

RSBM

When Lebanon sent missiles that targeted civilian areas -- it was unacceptable. But that's a different thread.

Yes, Israel did target Hezbollah-carrying pagers and walkie-talkies, but not "only" because they could not know who would eventually be killed or maimed.

I'm not interested in arguing "they did it first" scenarios because unacceptable is unacceptable in my book, and justification of any sort leads to escalation and more innocent deaths.

Booby traps violate international humanitarian law, and for the same reasons we're seeing a lot of condemnation against the pager/walkie-talkie attacks. Too indiscriminate. The pagers may have been issued to Hezbollah, but no one could guarantee where those persons (or pagers) would be when they were detonated.

That's why we're seeing a large number of civilian casualties. And that's unacceptable in my book.

Bbm.

First bolded : Yes, however imo ; it ties closely into this recent operation to disrupt and begin dismantling the network responsible for the atrocities against Israel.
The pagers were not booby traps per se, but a specific device given to the people by the terrorists they worked for.
Some or maybe many of the injured and killed may have been terrorist fighters themselves.

Second bolded :The injured in the photos and articles coming out appear to be civilians, true.
Even if they're administrative assistants or restaurant employees -- what were they doing with a Hezbollah pager on their person, ready to receive a message and possibly act on it ?
It appears that the complicated web of Hezbollah and their allies, Hamas etc., is vast -- and spreads throughout the civilian population !
A lot of willing participants for Hezbollah.
Shame on anyone complicit in targeting known civilian areas with missiles.

A pager or walkie-talkie being worn by a terrorist being detonated in a surgical strike.

A missile falling on a building or area of children playing soccer is not.
Imo, there is not enough condemnation for the those attacks.
Omo.

 

[Curiousobserver]

RSBM

When Lebanon sent missiles that targeted civilian areas -- it was unacceptable. But that's a different thread.

Yes, Israel did target Hezbollah-carrying pagers and walkie-talkies, but not "only" because they could not know who would eventually be killed or maimed.

I'm not interested in arguing "they did it first" scenarios because unacceptable is unacceptable in my book, and justification of any sort leads to escalation and more innocent deaths.

Booby traps violate international humanitarian law, and for the same reasons we're seeing a lot of condemnation against the pager/walkie-talkie attacks. Too indiscriminate. The pagers may have been issued to Hezbollah, but no one could guarantee where those persons (or pagers) would be when they were detonated.

That's why we're seeing a large number of civilian casualties. And that's unacceptable in my book.

How did they know one of those pagers wasn't on a plane? or visiting the Russian Embassy? Or working in a chemical plant? Just incredibly reckless and risky.

 

[RANCH]

How did they know one of those pagers wasn't on a plane? or visiting the Russian Embassy? Or working in a chemical plant? Just incredibly reckless and risky.

I would be concerned with terrorists being at any of those locations. JMO.

FOREIGN TERRORIST GROUP DESIGNATION
The US State Department designated Hizballah as a foreign terrorist organization in October 1997. More than 60 other countries and organizations, including the EU, the Arab League, and the Gulf Cooperation Council, have also designated Hizballah—either in part or in its entirety—as a terrorist group.

National Counterterrorism Center | FTOs

Contains many features across the full range of issues pertaining to international terrorism: terrorist groups, wanted terrorists, and technical pages on various threat-related topics

www.dni.gov

 

[Curiousobserver]

I would be concerned with terrorists being at any of those locations. JMO.

National Counterterrorism Center | FTOs

Contains many features across the full range of issues pertaining to international terrorism: terrorist groups, wanted terrorists, and technical pages on various threat-related topics

www.dni.gov

Me too, and I completely sympathize with Israel's predicament.

But it shows a complete lack of concern for collateral damage to innocent people that isn't consistent with being the "good guys".

 

[RANCH]

Me too, and I completely sympathize with Israel's predicament.

But it shows a complete lack of concern for collateral damage to innocent people that isn't consistent with being the "good guys".

I see it exactly opposite. The terrorists use unguided rockets to indiscriminately kill Israeli civilians and Israel used explosives placed in devices carried by the terrorists.

JMO.

 

[Vern]

Me too, and I completely sympathize with Israel's predicament.

But it shows a complete lack of concern for collateral damage to innocent people that isn't consistent with being the "good guys".

I disagree. If you've viewed footage of any of the explosions, its pretty obvious that Israel did not utilize an intentionally lethal level of explosives in any of the devices.

It seems to me that in this case Israel kept to the Principles of War ... in that causing injury to your enemy is often more effective than killing your opposing combatant. It takes a vast amount more resources (infrastructure, money and personnel) to care for wounded than it does burying your dead. One wounded consumes the resources of three to care for them.

I'm just wondering what, and how, the government of Lebanon is now going to do to deal with these wounded and identified terrorists in their midst that are now fully known by identity to them. They've been wanting for years to eradicate their nation of the Hezbollah terrorists and their influence within Lebanon. I hope for the sake of their country and the innocent civilian population who reside there, that they act upon this opportunity.

 

[Curiousobserver]

I see it exactly opposite. The terrorists use unguided rockets to indiscriminately kill Israeli civilians and Israel used explosives placed in devices carried by the terrorists.

JMO.

Completely onboard with eliminating terrorists and I have no sympathy for people who fire rockets at random locations or the people who help them.. and sometimes that means you need to drop a bomb that kills some innocent bystanders on those rocket launchers. I'll cheer for that everyday.

None of us would be cheering if one of these pagers ended up in checked luggage and brought a plane down over NYC or a European city. Israel either didn't consider this, or accepted the risk. They were willing to risk the lives of hundreds of people to kill 1 terrorist. At some point the ratio of innocent people you are willing to kill to neutralize 1 bad guy is unacceptable and you turn from being the good-guys to the just-as-bad guys.

 

[Dotta]

Completely onboard with eliminating terrorists and I have no sympathy for people who fire rockets at random locations or the people who help them.. and sometimes that means you need to drop a bomb that kills some innocent bystanders on those rocket launchers. I'll cheer for that everyday.

None of us would be cheering if one of these pagers ended up in checked luggage and brought a plane down over NYC or a European city. Israel either didn't consider this, or accepted the risk. They were willing to risk the lives of hundreds of people to kill 1 terrorist. At some point the ratio of innocent people you are willing to kill to neutralize 1 bad guy is unacceptable and you turn from being the good-guys to the just-as-bad guys.

The problem with spiralling violence is that it breeds hatred and new terrorists.
Some might be killed but
hundreds more will appear in their place.

The only solution is Diplomacy, Goodwill and Compromise.

Good relationships with neighbours are priceless.
Sometimes it is better to suck something up.

I pity the kids.
They are innocent victims of adults' folly.
The conflict is getting bigger instead of smaller

No end is visible.

JMO

 

[Vern]

I suspect that none of the phones or pagers would have made it through airport security screening precisely due to ... explosives within them.

In any case, there is one video of a device going off next to a fruit bin while it's wearer bends over the fruit. The fruit made out perfectly fine and I suspect an aircraft would have too should something untoward have happened such as allowing a terrorist to proceed through to boarding without screening the individual or their luggage. Highly doubtful as to that scenario ocurring as Beirut is recognized as an Interntional Airport and their government probably wants it to remain as such at the end of the day.

Diplomacy and goodwill are excellent and awesome tools but are more effective when when the enemy who wants to cease your very right to exist is actually willing to compromise that stated end goal.

 

[Momoffourboys]

Report: Hezbollah pagers were detonated individually; attackers knew who and where the target was​

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-hezbollah-pagers-were-detonated-individually-attackers-knew-who-and-where-the-target-was/

 

[nao]

Moo..take communication away, the Hezbollah leaders have to get together in person. Israel bombed the meeting. I google Israel every morning, just to see how many people they have killed. Moo

 

[vls12345]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/20/world/video/how-powerful-can-a-pager-bomb-be-an-expert-shows-us

An explosives expert showed CNN what kind of damage a pager or walkie talkie could do if rigged with explosives. Similar devices caused thousands of injuries and dozens of deaths in coordinated attacks targeting Hezbollah members in Lebanon. Israel has tacitly acknowledged its role in the attacks.

Link has a video with test explosives.

 

[Arkay]

Moo..take communication away, the Hezbollah leaders have to get together in person. Israel bombed the meeting. I google Israel every morning, just to see how many people they have killed. Moo

I read news about Israel every day, too.
Just in hopes that they have removed more terrorists from this earth.

That IMO is important not only for Israel’s security but for America and all the West, too.

My daughter was a mile away from the WTC on 9/11 and did eventually make it home alive.

So many others I knew died during that terror assault.

When you or your family are minding their own business, going about their day, and terrorist fanatics blow you out of existence, it is understandable how Israel MUST defend itself after October 7th.

It’s now 23 years since 9/11, but from my window I can see the Freedom Tower, where the WTC used to stand. And the people I knew are still dead.

Again, if you’ve been PERSONALLY stricken by terrorists, it’s hard to fathom how Israelis have dealt with constant attacks for years. And October 7th is their 9/11.

IMO

 

[nao]

I read news about Israel every day, too.
Just in hopes that they have removed more terrorists from this earth.

That IMO is important not only for Israel’s security but for America and all the West, too.

My daughter was a mile away from the WTC on 9/11 and did eventually make it home alive.

So many others I knew died during that terror assault.

When you or your family are minding their own business, going about their day, and terrorist fanatics blow you out of existence, it is understandable how Israel MUST defend itself after October 7th.

It’s now 23 years since 9/11, but from my window I can see the Freedom Tower, where the WTC used to stand. And the people I knew are still dead.

Again, if you’ve been PERSONALLY stricken by terrorists, it’s hard to fathom how Israelis have dealt with constant attacks for years. And October 7th is their 9/11.

IMO

Moo..well go destroy the country, it's history it's schools, it's people,...moo

 

[Vern]

Lest they cleanse Israel "from the river to the sea" of the Jews (and Christians, and Druze ...) it's history, it's schools. Just review some photos of the places terrorists managed to make it to on October 7th 2023 for evidence of that fact.

Israel can never afford to lose a war that terrorists extremists have always started. Israel's enemy that has rejected proposed two-state soloutions every single time.

The day Israel loses a war is the day they cease to exist (that's actual "genocide" by definition folks). Exactly as their enemies call for as being their only acceptable stated end goal.

It's not like Hezbollah rockets weren't being fired into Israel before October 7th because they certainly were .... almost daily. BUT, Hezbollah (in Lebanon & Syria) chose to ramp it up on October 7th ... the Houthis (in Yemen) chose to ramp it up on October 7th by pounding their own rockets into Israel too ... all backed up by Iran. They've all been continuing to do so ever since.

BUT [sarcasm on] ... heaven forbid that ISRAEL widen this war by defending themselves against those terrorists in other nations who've already chosen to widen it by launching attacks at Israel from outside of Israel's borders. How dare those Jews defend themselves from any of this while we remain snug and smug at our lovely homes in Europe and North America safe and free from terrorists on our own borders firing indiscrimainate rockets into our towns every day. How dare they. [/sarcasm off].

The hypocrisy of some is amazing. And, if those rockets were happening in our towns, in our countries, from terrorists on our own nation's borders ... I highly doubt anyone would be telling our own governments to just forget about it and leave them alone to do their nasty terrorist work.

 

[Dotta]

Re Europeans "snug and smug"

Europe fought really hard to become the safe place it is today.
After never ending wars and unspeakable tragedies.

Nothing was given freely
but worked out hard by Diplomats and people of Goodwill.

Now,
even the deadliest enemies have become friends,
and if not friends, at least allies.

Europe has made up its mind and moved forward.

JM European Opinion

 

[Vern]

Re Europeans "snug and smug"

Europe fought really hard to become the safe place it is today.
After never ending wars and unspeakable tragedies.

Now, even the deadliest enemies have become if not friends, but at least allies.

Europe and North Amercians who helped them out certainly did so years ago. I have served there and I have friends serving over there right now in your country and Latvia due to there being a war actually happening very close to you. It's not war-free and there are unspeakable tragedies happening there right now as well. Both conventional and unconventional. Russia is certainly not an ally, nor friends of Ukraine ... nor Poland. I too watch the news. IMO and just a fact.

 

[Dotta]

Europe and North Amercians who helped them out certainly did so years ago. I have served there and I have friends serving over there right now in your country and Latvia due to there being a war actually happening very close to you. It's not war-free and there are unspeakable tragedies happening there right now as well. Both conventional and unconventional. Russia is certainly not an ally, nor friends of Ukraine ... nor Poland. I too watch the news. IMO and just a fact.

Modern Europe is divided into 46 countries (including Kosovo - 47).
43 countries lie within Europe, while three - the Russian Federation, Kazakhstan and Türkiye - have most of their territory in Asia.