Leslie Van Houten parole

Discussion in 'Up to the Minute' started by Tuffgong, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. Tuffgong

    Tuffgong Active Member

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    I'm sorry, but this woman should not still be in prison. She killed nobody. She has spent 3/4 of her life in prison and has been a model prisoner during that whole time. She poses no risk to anybody. We have seen so many worse people paroled, but the politics of Manson makes everybody connected to him an incorrigible. Bobby Beausolei actually murdered someone, no problem with his parole being denied. But Van Houten, stuck a knife into the buttocks of a dead person, 50 years ago. Time to pretend that rehabilitation still has some place.
     
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  2. GordianKnot

    GordianKnot Well-Known Member

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    Tate shared she was stunned that Van Houten may have a chance at freedom after her involvement with the brutal slayings.

    “Leslie Van Houten has admitted to stabbing Rosemary LaBianca over 17 times,” said Tate. “In the beginning, she said it was postmortem after Rosemary died. Now she admits that she can’t state that Rosemary was dead. She knew she was handed a knife by Tex Watson because her weapon had become bent and it happened to be a bayonet. The public seems to think that this woman made these stabbings postmortem. … She is now admitting this because Gov. Brown gave these facts as reasons for her unsuitability for parole.”

    The Los Angeles Times reported a then 19-year-old Van Houten and others stormed into the home of the LaBiancas. As Charles “Tex” Watson” stabbed Leno, Van Houten and another woman held down Rosemary. After Watson stabbed her with a bayonet, he handed the knife to Van Houten. She has previously testified to stabbing Rosemary in the back at least 14 more times.


    LVH can continue to rehabilitate herself behind bars. It's a worthy pursuit for her.

    She can continue to be a model prisoner for the rest of her natural life. That, too, is a worthy pursuit.

    Given her positive contribution and model prisoner status, she can likely do much more good for the rest of society inside prison than she can outside.

    She doesn't deserve to breathe free air after she forever took the life's breath out of RL.

    JMO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  3. Tuffgong

    Tuffgong Active Member

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    With all due respect to Sharon Tate's sister, LVH had nothing to do with the attacks against her sister, so I am not sure why she feels the need to involve herself in this case, I also think she tends to overstate specifics. Tex pressured a drug-crazed LVH to get her hands dirty as she was reluctant. I think she greatly exaggerated what she did, because the autopsy report certainly did not bear out what LVH claimed way back when. LVH was very much a victim to Manson's drugs and control.
     
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  4. GordianKnot

    GordianKnot Well-Known Member

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    BBM:

    Tuff, while I understand what you're saying about TW, it's important not to minimize LVH's role in the RL murder. Just being there that night is enough to assign culpability to her, never mind the fact that she took a knife in her hands and stabbed RL multiple times with it in a frenzied attack.

    As someone who believes in free will and self-determination, I'm completely unwilling to assign "victim status" to LVH.

    Members of Manson's cult didn't fall prey to some mastermind svengali...the dude was a freakin' nut job. LVH, TW and co. all became members of his following because they shared like views, and his message resonated with them. That tells me all I need to know.

    I also don't think LVH being under the influence of drugs at the time is an excuse or mitigating factor. Again, free will and self-determination.

    I do think she can do more good for society within prison walls than outside of them...she can continue to be a positive role model to other prisoners.

    Just my thoughts....we'll see what Newsom decides!
     
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  5. Tuffgong

    Tuffgong Active Member

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    Respect your opinion, but as someone that has studied the family extensively, the Manson at the beginning was very different than the Manson at the end. The beginning was drugs, sex, independence. Manson was a Svengali and did use brainwashing techniques and methods used by Scientology and LSD. Those middle class girls that joined the family were not cold-blooded killers, they were shaped and molded into becoming that. Never underestimate the power of the cult leader over the members of the cult. LVH and the rest of the family, when separated from Charlie in prison all denounced him and all slowly came to realize how twisted he had made them.
     
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  6. wfaygo

    wfaygo Member

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    #FreeLeslie
     
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  7. GordianKnot

    GordianKnot Well-Known Member

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    BBMFF:
    Respect your opinion, too, Tuff!

    Re: bolded portion of your post, here's the problem I have with the "cult mentality" and brainwashing techniques, etc.

    In order for that type of "control" to be exerted, a person really has to allow someone to exert that type of influence over them. Like you said, a lot of those "followers" came from middle class families. They weren't abducted or kidnapped by Manson. Choice. Free will.

    Re: it started as drugs, sex, independence, well, that's how college and/or early adulthood starts for a lot of people. So, if that's what it was really about, LVH could have gone to a good, middle-class university and had those experiences.

    That wasn't the "draw" for her and the others, IMO.
    Helter Skelter was always there as the underlying message and the mission, IMO.
    It just wasn't "voiced" as such initially.

    Whatever else you want to say about her, LVH is not a stupid person.
    She was never a stupid person. She was smart enough to know better than to follow the likes of him....if she was disinclined to follow him, that is.
    LVH was on board with the agenda.
    LVH, and the others, made a choice to relinquish their free will.

    A cult leader has power because the group assigns him the power.
    That way, they can abnegate responsibility.
    It's not intellectual weakness, but it is moral weakness.
    Moral weakness leads to many criminal acts.
    Moral weakness is not a viable defense.

    All of the above: JMO!
     
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  8. borndem

    borndem Anglophile & registered demwit

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    She, along with the others were found guilty of 1st degree murder, and then they were given the Death Penalty as their punishments.
    When the DP was dropped in CA, they were given Life -- CA allowed these prisoners the right to ask for parole -- after initially being given death?? No, not buying parole for any of them; also not buying that LVH only stabbed a dead woman. She got in the car; she went into the LaBianca house with a weapon; and she stabbed Rosemary many times. She didn't have to get in the car; she didn't have to go into the house; she didn't have to use the weapon; and she didn't have to stab her numerous times.
    No parole, IMO.
     
  9. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    I was in college at the time my friend decided to go join a cult in Tennessee which still exists. No murders, I guess.

    She knew what the cult leader believed before she left.

    Manson believed in starting a race war.

    I do wonder what the girl’s upbringings were actually like
     
  10. Tuffgong

    Tuffgong Active Member

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    Today I would agree with what you say. However, let's not pretend the late 1960s was today. That was a time when thousands and thousands of young people were doing just what LVH did. It was the counterculture. No cults start off with heavy handed tactics, it is a gradual brainwash. I think of Jim Jones and all of his followers drinking kool=aid that was poisoned. How many would have done that after seeing him preach the first time in SF? None.
     
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  11. Tuffgong

    Tuffgong Active Member

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    I don't believe she went into the house with a weapon. I believe the knives and forks used were in the LaBianca kitchen. I think California state law says that people that meet the requirements of parole should be paroled. She has met those standards and the parole board as said as much, more than once. This is political, nothing more.
     
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  12. GordianKnot

    GordianKnot Well-Known Member

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    Point well made, and taken.

    See, here's the thing: After < 3 minutes of listening to JJ "preach" the first time in SF, you and I and 99.99% of the rest of the population would have shaken our heads in disbelief and walked off laughing. I sure the heck wouldn't have been packing my bags for the next flight to Guyana, nor would you, I suspect.

    Nothing against Guyana. It sounds like a place that would have a lot of mosquitos, though...possibly even dengue fever outbreaks, which is just a big no, thank you. I digress.

    There's just a sliver of a percentage (fortunately only a sliver) who are looking for their "cause" to latch onto.

    Even if you or I had listened (intently!) to JJ's drivel for years, at the moment of decision we still would have taken a pass on the Grape Kool-Aid when the paper cups got passed around. And I really like Grape Kool-Aid. But I value my life even more!

    *As an aside: Whenever somebody says something to me that I find beyond the bounds of credulity, I always respond, "Please pass the Kool-Aid....Make mine a double!"
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
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  13. Tuffgong

    Tuffgong Active Member

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    Yeah, but that evolution was a long time in the making. Kind of like with Manson. His message was well received in the community at first.
     
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  14. kay74

    kay74 Well-Known Member

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    I had a friend in high school and in college who came from upscale parents and had everything. She married the dreamiest guy in college, then a year later she up and left to join a cult in Oklahoma! Her parents and husband were never allowed to see her and she never communicated with them. This was in the mid to late 60's. I believe Leslie was popular, too, which makes it so hard to understand joining Manson. I do not know what Leslies homelife was like. (broken home?)
     
  15. GordianKnot

    GordianKnot Well-Known Member

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    BBM:

    The community of lemmings, you mean?

    I don't think people who get sucked into "Groupthink" should be given a pass for opting out of using their critical thinking skills.

    Then again, I'm not a bobblehead, so there's that.

    LVH is a bright human being. She does not have an intellectual disability.

    She absolutely had the capacity to anticipate how "way leads unto way."

    She chose her path, destructive as it was...where she finds herself now is via her own deliberate, violent, evil actions.

    JMO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
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  16. Catmammy

    Catmammy Well-Known Member

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    Has Leslie paid her debt to society? She's been in a loooong time. If she stays longer will she prevent someone else from committing the same type of crime or bring any of the victims back? NOPE. Is she likely to commit the same type of crime if she's released? Possible but doubtful. Is she entitled to spend her remaining days outside a prison wall?

    I don't like Leslie. I understand why someone close to the murders wouldn't want her released. After twenty years, I had to ask myself these same questions about my stepson's murderer this year after fighting every five to three years to be certain he stayed in prison. She is entitled to parole. As is he. I don't have to like it. I don't like it but I do understand and accept.
     
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  17. Tuffgong

    Tuffgong Active Member

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    I don't buy this at all. Their were so many communes during the Beatnik days and even more during the counterculture. None of those communes were associated with murdering people. Manson emulated those communes and drew people in. The first years were all about drugs and free love. Once again, the introduction of acid/LSD and mind control techniques made this arrangement different. I will go back to the culture of the time, people were going to these communes to escape the world that they had seen their parents "screw up" as they believed. I did not say lemmings. People are taken in by a charismatic leader, they are introduced to a new way of life, they are introduced to mind altering drugs, they are conditioned using the mind control techniques currently used by Scientology, etc. To imply that everybody, regardless of their background and history could properly protect themselves from what was happening is a bit naive. Nobody joined the family thinking I want to break into homes and murder people. That was something not posed to them. I think we are hitting an impasse here. But I have read extensively about how cults work, and it is not always losers and lemmings that get taken in and changed.
     
  18. GordianKnot

    GordianKnot Well-Known Member

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    RBBMFF:

    Tuff, there's a reason the whole hippie movement got the tag "counter-culture."

    The "Make Love, Not War, Hell, No, We Won't Go," tie-dye and moccasins bunch were not representative of the prevailing social norms of American society at the time. And the vast majority of that counterculture movement didn't go on murdering rampages, so there's that.

    Re: people who join communes/cults like Manson's, in the bolded section above, if I replace the word "introduced" with the words"choose to pursue" then I agree with your statements.

    See, we're not at such an impasse! There are just some points on which we respectfully agree to disagree.

    The point of debate and argument is not to win, IMO. It is to learn.

    It's obvious that you have studied cults a great deal, so I'm definitely processing what you're saying....not agreeing, but ingesting it as food for thought.
     
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  19. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    As a child of the 60’s although I was a college student , my husband did live in the Haight now and again because his friend had come back from Vietnam and was a mess.

    The Haight was not all love and peace. It was filled with kids with huge issues. Lots of girls who ran away from home and now became the target of predators.

    Lots of kids took drugs. How many became murderers?

    If Helter Skelter is true, then it took a an unusual personality to join up with Manson. It is a good book to read.
     
  20. cuttlebone

    cuttlebone Member

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    She had not yet turned 20.

    Frost didn't even write the poem you quote from till he was well past 40.
     
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