Let's Follow the Evidence...OR the Lack of It

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by midwest mama, Mar 1, 2013.

  1. midwest mama

    midwest mama New Member

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    Is it possible for those of us who are still seeking more knowledge of the evidence, or lack of it, that led the GJ to vote for an indictment of both of the Ramseys to work on this thread in an orderly A-Z collection of such?

    I propose that we use this thread strictly for posting case knowledge that can be sourced as verified evidence or as evidence that has not been verified or proved by a credible source.

    For instance, though there are several accounts of Patsy waking up and finding John in the shower, and then her getting up and getting ready for the day, going down to find the note, and eventually calling 911 about 25 minutes later, since that is only a Ramsey account that cannot be verified, except now by John, possibly Burke, we start instead with:

    Officer French was met only minutes after responding to a 911 call placed from the Ramsey home at 5:52 am, Dec 26, 1996, outside the Ramsey front door, by Patsy. She was dressed in a red sweater and black pants, appearing with neatly done hair and wearing makeup.

    She led him inside, where John met him dressed in light colored casual pants, and a long-sleeved shirt, appearing fresh, and as if he had paid good attention to his personal grooming that morning. John led French to what was to become known as a Ransom Note.

    Now, if we can continue, in baby steps to build only the information that has been either validated as being "true" or validated as being "not true", then perhaps we'll all have a clearer understanding of how things
    in this case come together to lead us to a suspect(s).

    A HUGE task, I know, but shall we try?
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  3. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    This is a good idea. The other day, I was wondering where the evidence would lead if we only followed the fiber trail. What story would unfold?
  4. Bayareamom

    Bayareamom Member

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    :) GREAT idea, mama! I need a break, though. Will be back sometime next week.
  5. midwest mama

    midwest mama New Member

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    Can someone outline the recorded times JR made a statement he went into the basement on the 26th or someone was in the home when he did go down?
    And include which time he found the chair in front of the door, which time he closed the window he found open, and which time Patsy referred to when she stated that she remembered hearing him screaming as he came up from the basement?
  6. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    23 MIKE KANE: And so this was before or do

    24 you remember if this was before or after the

    25 Whites and Fernies (INAUDIBLE)?


    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was after,
    2 because they came fairly early.

    3 MIKE KANE: Was it long after?

    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't remember

    5 specifically. The best I can do is, it was, I

    6 believe, after the police came. Because they had

    7 gone through the house before I figured out what

    8 I'm going to do. It was before ten o'clock. They

    9 had already done some preparation before that. So

    10 it would have been before. Probably before nine.

    11 So then somewhere between seven and nine.

    12 MIKE KANE: Okay. I think it's, and this

    13 may put things into perspective. I think you were

    14 saying that you were expecting a phone call

    15 between ten and 12. The note said between eight16 and ten.

    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, really?

    18 MIKE KANE: So does that note, does

    19 that put into context, between eight and ten,

    20 where were you?

    21 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) yeah. Really it

    22 does. When we were ready for the phone call and I

    23 was prepped about what I was going to say and I

    24 was getting the family ready. And so between that

    25 period of time we were just waiting for the phone


    1 call and I was near the phone. And I was either in

    2 the study or on the first floor. I just waiting

    3 for it.

    4 MIKE KANE: So it would have been before

    5 that?

    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before

    7 that time period.

    8 MIKE KANE: But would if have been before

    9 the time that you said Linda prepped you? I

    10 believe she arrived later on; she arrived around

    11 eight o'clock or so?

    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was before that.

    13 MIKE KANE: It was before that?

    14 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) my time --

    15 MIKE KANE: No, I understand. That's why

    16 trying to (INAUDIBLE).

    17 JOHN RAMSEY: But if the note said, eight

    18 to ten, which I don't remember.

    19 MIKE KANE: Yes, it said that, eight.

    20 JOHN RAMSEY: We were well prepared. There

    21 was recorders set up; there was wire taps in

    22 place; Linda had briefed me on what to say. So she

    23 would have gotten there, gosh, quarter to seven,

    24 seven. I'm sure --

    25 MIKE KANE: Yeah. No, I'm just trying to


    1 put the time --

    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But she was there for

    3 a while. She was there a good while before we were

    4 ready for the call.

    so he didn't go between 8-10 because he was near the phone,that's when the note said the kidnappers would call

    December 26, 1996
    Approximate Sequence Events
    Approximate Arrival/Departure

    Patsy Ramsey dialed 911 (5:52am)
    Patsy Ramsey phoned Whites
    Patsy Ramsey phoned Fernies
    John Ramsey (reading note)
    Burke Ramsey (sleeping??)
    JonBenet Ramsey (missing)
    Officer Rick French arrived (5:59am)
    Officer Karl Veitch arrived
    Sgt. Paul Reichenbach arrived
    Fleet White arrived (6:30am)
    Priscilla White arrived (6:30am)
    John Fernie arrived
    Barbara Fernie arrived
    Mary Lou Jedamus-Advocate (6:45am)
    Grace Morlock-Advocate (6:45am)
    Officer Barry Weiss (6:45am)
    Officer Sue Barchlow (6:45am)
    Priscilla White phones home (6:45am)
    Reverend Rol Hoverstock (7:00am)
    Burke taken to Whites (7:00am)
    K-9 Unit on standby (7:33am)
    Sgt. Paul Reichenbach mets Arndt
    Det. Linda Arndt arrives (8:10am)
    Det. Fred Patterson (8:10am)
    Crime scene investigators dusting prints
    JonBenet Bedroom sealed (10:30am)


    IMO he didn't have the time to go to the basement
    i think that's what Kane figured out as well.
    he didn't go around 7 because that's when Burke left


    another lie

    1997 interview

    So I went back down with Fleet, we looked around for some glass again, still didn’t see any glass.

    1998 interview

    We got down on our hands and

    15 knees looking for some glass just to see.

    16 LOU SMIT: What did you find?

    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we found a few fragments

    18 of glass not enough to indicate that it was a

    19 fresh break.

    20 LOU SMIT: What did you do with those fragments?

    21 JOHN RAMSEY: We might have put them on the

    22 ledge, if I remember. It really wasn't much. We

    23 had only found one or two. We might have put them

    24 up here on the ledge.

    according to ST's book,FW went down to the basement between 6.30-6.45

    it says FW found a piece of glass which he placed on the ledge
    he drops to his knees ,searching for other pieces and moved the suitcase in doing so


    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I moved it to see or

    7 to look for glass then. But I think it was where I

    8 left it, where it was when I was down there

    9 before.


    how many times was the suitcase moved?


    ST: Well, let me follow up on this John. John I’m very sensitive to how tough this is, and you’ll appreciate that we need to get through this. On that trip to the basement, shortly after 1 p.m. on the 26th, Fleet showed you the window, the broken basement window.

    JR: No, I, I think was the first one to enter the room.
    ST: OK, but . . .

    JR: I said, you know, this window’s broken, but I think I broke it last summer. It just hasn’t been fixed. And it was opened, but I closed it earlier and we got down on the floor and looked around for some glass just to be sure that it hadn’t been broken again.


    I think FW was the one who pointed out to JR that the window was broken
  7. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    this is an older post of mine back when I was trying to get the real timeline of events.....hard with so many contradicting statements....but one thing is sure...something stinks bigtime re all JR's trips to the basement that morning.....WHY....cause the staging wasn't over when they called LE?
  8. Nom de plume

    Nom de plume New Member

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    Snipped & BBM & CBM

    :what: Little slip of the tongue there Johnny boy? Do about what? Figure out how to get her out of the house? Figure out how to finish staging? :waitasec:
  9. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    oh another one that just jumped at me

    , I

    6 believe, after the police came.

    you believe??so it could have happened before?hm
  10. midwest mama

    midwest mama New Member

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    THANKS for such a great timeline Madelaine!

    What I see, according to your timeline, is a shortage of time to have gone to the basement once the police were there, until the time Arndt lost track of him, if he went to get Burke ready to go with Fleet, and also then had to start working with Arndt.

    Also, added to your timeline, from another source I read that said the call for the ransom money was at 7:30 am, is this substantiation of the early call:
    J. Rod Westmoreland - Atlanta banker and financial consultant for and friend of both John and Jeff Ramsey. John called him early in the morning on the 26th to gather the ransom money together.

    The line about JR "figuring out what I'm going to do", though I don't want to have to say this, is in reference, I think, to him and Arndt making a plan on what to say to the kidnapper. This time, Nom, we might have to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's the most objective thing to do, and a trial lawyer would also probably try that.

    Looks to me that both Fleet and John moved the suitcase when it was in the train room - so which one of them put it in the position it was when photographed by police?

    Still need which visit it was that John made to the train room when he said he moved a chair, which neither police or Fleet said they saw or moved from in front of the door. Think I can find that in Kolar's book.
  11. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    I looked last night but couldn't find it, (which is maddening because someone posted it again the other day), but could someone please re-post PR's statements on flashbacking to JR screaming and coming up from the basement?
  12. cynic

    cynic Active Member

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    25 PATSY RAMSEY: It just happened so
    1 fast, and I, you know, read that letter and said
    2 "we have your daughter", your mind goes berserk.
    3 I mean I was -- and then I went up there and my
    4 child is not in the bed. You know, I didn't,
    5 nothing against your questioning, but no, I
    6 didn't stand around and say I wonder if she is
    7 in here, I wonder if she is in there. I
    8 screamed for John.
    9 TOM HANEY: Okay, and that's why
    10 you were standing here?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: I am going this way
    12 and I lean on and said John -- you know, the
    13 landing is like here, is like this, then it
    14 turns and like that. And I leaned over, I mean
    15 my knees were like, you know, buckling. And oh,
    16 God, and he came down and I said, "she's gone,
    17 she's gone, there is a note, she's been
    18 kidnapped."
    19 TOM HANEY: So you're here at the
    20 base of the stairs?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    22 TOM HANEY: You scream for John?
    23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding with no
    24 audible response).
    25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember exactly
    1 what words you used, was it more than just John
    2 or--
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember my voice
    4 was just cracking. I mean it was like "John",
    5 like that. I mean like, I can't even, you know,
    6 I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he
    7 came up from the basement, I mean it was just a
    8 horrible thing. You know, it was just --
    Patsy Ramsey interview - June 23, 1998
  13. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    Well!!! from the flow of this conversation, PR was relating what happened that morning, right after she 'found' the note. I can't give her the benefit of the doubt on this, because there's no benefit to give. It is what it is.
  14. cynic

    cynic Active Member

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    Is John thinking about when he wrapped JonBenet in a blanket in the basement?

    10 JOHN RAMSEY: But I didn't know at the time,
    11 but later, she was back in the study with Barbara
    12 Fernie and I don't know who else. My emotion was
    13 that I had found her, which was good. But she was
    14 dead, which was horrible. But it was almost better
    15 than not knowing. Cause not knowing where your
    16 child is the most horrible feeling, I think, a
    17 parent can experience. And that was (INAUDIBLE)
    18 what had been going through our mind all that
    19 morning.
    20 So when I first found her I was like,
    21 (Thank God, I found her.̃ I didn't want Patsy to
    22 see her that way, and I ran upstairs and got a
    23 blanket off one of the chairs, I think, it's got
    24 a little shape like.
    25 LOU SMIT: Upstairs?
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably up in the TV room.
    2 I just ran up these stairs and went back down and
    3 put the blanket over her
    John Ramsey interview - June 23, 1998

    The problem here is that if he went UPSTAIRS to get a blanket from the TV room, that means he put the blanket he is referring to on JonBenet in the BASEMENT, because the TV room is on the main floor of the home.

    TT: Okay. You yelled for John. John comes down. Okay, what happened, where did John read the note at when he read it?
    PR: Downstairs.
    TT: Okay. Where, where was . . .
    PR: Down, down in the, you know, on, not, not in the laundry room area, but down. I said there’s a note down there.
    TT: Okay. Down towards the butler’s kitchen in that area?
    PR: No, not all the way down there. On the wooden floor . . .
    TT: Okay.
    PR: . . .right there by the TV room.
    Patsy Ramsey interview - April 30, 1997
  15. cynic

    cynic Active Member

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    Trying to lock down a timeline here will drive you crazy; there is a lot of conflicting information.
    It appears that both Rick French and Fleet White were in the basement prior to JR, but it’s hard to say with certainty.
    If true, however, then both did not notice that the window was open (FW says it was unlatched.)
    Moreover, both did not notice the door to the train room being blocked by a chair.
    If JR was downstairs prior to FW and RF, he claimed that he not only closed the window, but latched it as well. This would then contradict FW, who says the window was unlatched.
    If the window was found open by JR, why would he close and latch the window?
    Finally, if, as he would claim years later, it was his “first impression that the kidnapper had gone through that window,” why would he not call everyone in the house downstairs to point out this vitally important discovery?
    JR’s recollection of the window and the importance ascribed to it seems to increase over time.
    First it was:
    LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember.

    Then it becomes:
    The window was open. It was broken. I went back upstairs and reported that to Detective Arndt.
    COURIC: You did tell her about the...
    Mr. RAMSEY: Yes.
    COURIC: ...open window?
    Mr. RAMSEY: I did.

    He seems to have some problems with his memory a year later, I’m sure that the fact he was under oath in a deposition had nothing to do with it, though.
    Q. …did you inform anybody of what you found in the basement?
    A. I don't recall specifically if I did or not. I have a vague recollection of telling Linda Arndt that I found an open window with broken glass, but that I perhaps had broken that glass myself months earlier.
    Q. Do you think you might have mentioned that to any other law enforcement officer beside Linda Arndt?
    A. Not that I recall

    Finally, John’s memory recovers,again, and he confidently proclaims:
    I told Linda Arndt that I found the window open and I found a suitcase under the window.

    Below is a series of Q and A’s on the issue, including all of the above quotes in context:

    JR: I said, you know, this window’s broken, but I think I broke it last summer. It just hasn’t been fixed. And it was opened, but I closed it earlier and we got down on the floor and looked around for some glass just to be sure that it hadn’t been broken again.
    ST: And Fleet had talked about earlier being down there, I think alone at one point, and discovering that window. When you say that you found it earlier that day and latched it, at what time of day was that?
    JR: I don’t know. I mean it would have been probably, probably before 10 o’clock.
    ST: Was that prior to Fleet’s first trip down?
    JR: I didn’t know he was in the basement. I didn’t know that. I mean other than that trip with me.
    ST: And on the trip that you latched the window, were you alone when you went down and latched the window?
    JR: Yep.
    John Ramsey, 1997 Interview

    LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you ever go down to the basement?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.
    LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had gone down the basement. I went in the --
    LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.
    We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a chair that was in front of the door. Some old
    things. I moved the chair, went into this room, went back in here. This window was open, maybe
    that far.
    LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far were you? An inch?
    JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It was cracked open.
    LOU SMIT: Which window?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one.
    There's three windows across here, as I recall. I think it was the middle one. It was that was broken. There was pane class broken out of it, which I attributed to breaking myself.
    LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?
    JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there was a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.
    LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was positioned?
    JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think the handle was on top. It was directly under the window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I don't know why, but I closed it. And then --
    LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock it or close it?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little latch on it.
    LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I think at that point I still was trying to figure out how they'd get in the house.
    LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your (INAUDIBLE).
    JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
    LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean, part of what is going on you're in such a state of
    disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know, the window had been broken out. And you say hah, that's it. But it was a window that I had used to get into the house before. It was cracked and open
    a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.
    Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in because that basement could get real hot in winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought about it, I thought it was more of an alarming situation how it struck me at the time. It was still sort of explainable to me that it could have been left open.
    And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I
    remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all the way back there and put it against the window.
    LOU SMIT: When you noticed it, about what time was that? That's kind of important. In terms of time now.
    JOHN RAMSEY: Well it would have been probably before nine o'clock, I would say. It would have
    been that time period: seven to nine. Cause I was still, you know amidst all this other stuff, trying to figure out what's going on here? How did they get in the house? I know this is before Linda
    told us to go through the house. It was well before.
    John Ramsey, 1998 Interview

    Fleet White went downstairs to basement to look for JBR (Schiller 1999a: 44). This time is supported by Carnes (2003:14): "The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF P 23; PSMF P 23.)
    Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF P 25; PSMF P 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.)" (Carnes 2003:14).

    Q. Do you remember what you saw in the basement when you went down there?
    A. I saw a partially opened window with broken glass and a suitcase beneath the window.
    Q. When you would - did you see anything else there?
    A. Not that looked out of the ordinary.
    Q. May I ask why you went to the basement at that time?
    A. I was trying to determine how someone could have gotten into our house.
    Q. Did anyone ask you to go to the basement at that time?
    A. No.
    Q. Do you know if anybody saw you go to the basement at that time?
    A. I have no idea.
    Q. When you saw that the basement was in the condition that it was in, as you have just described it, and you came back upstairs, did you inform anybody of what you found in the basement?
    A. I don't recall specifically if I did or not. I have a vague recollection of telling Linda Arndt that I found an open window with broken glass, but that I perhaps had broken that glass myself months earlier.
    Q. Do you think you might have mentioned that to any other law enforcement officer beside Linda Arndt?
    A. Not that I recall
    Q. When Linda Arndt asked you to go down to the basement, I think that was sometime in the early afternoon -
    A. I don't remember the time. I really don't.
    Q. When she asked you to go down to the basement, could you explain why you chose going to the basement since you had already been there earlier?
    A. She told me to go through the house and look for anything - go through the house thoroughly, as I recall, and look for anything that seems out of place. And so my intent was to do it thoroughly.
    Q. Did you ask Fleet White to join you?
    A. I think I did, as I recall.
    Q. Do you remember exactly the sequence of events when you went down to the basement the second time?
    A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    Q. Can you tell me where you looked?
    A. I went back into the train room, showed Fleet the broken window, explained to him that I might have broken it myself months ago. I showed him the suitcase that I saw under the window, which I felt was very out of place. We looked for any large pieces of broken glass. And then I got up and went to the cellar room, opened the door, and found JonBenet.
    John Ramsey Deposition, Wolf v Ramsey Lawsuit, December 12, 2001

    BARBARA WALTERS: The police searched your house but they didn't find Jon Benet. But at one point you went downstairs and found an open window.
    BARBARA WALTERS: A window that you had broken yourself at one point to put your hand through and find the latch.
    JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    BARBARA v/o: That window was in a storage room at the rear of the house. It was on the other end of the basement from the room in which JonBenet's body would later be found.
    BARBARA WALTERS: What did you think when you saw this open window?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I was a bit alarmed, but I was more alarmed with the Samsonite suitcase that was standing up below the window.
    BARBARA WALTERS: I have seen the actual police photograph that was taken of that window and the suitcase and, and, there it was in full sight.
    JOHN RAMSEY: That looked wrong. That suitcase did not belong there.
    PATSY RAMSEY: It was out of place.
    JOHN RAMSEY: It was out of place.
    BARBARA WALTERS: So you thought perhaps..
    JOHN RAMSEY: It was...
    BARBARA WALTERS: ...the kidnapper had gone through that window.
    JOHN RAMSEY: I...that was my first impression, yes.
    BARBARA WALTERS 20/20 MAR 15/00

    COURIC: Detective Linda Arndt was assigned to the Ramsey home during those long hours. Sometime that morning, John Ramsey headed for the basement. Why did you go there?
    Mr. RAMSEY: We had a basement window that was under a--a grate, a removable grate that I had used the past summer to get into the house when I'd lost my keys. I--I wanted to check that window. I went down to that room. The window was open. It was broken. I went back upstairs and reported that to Detective Arndt.
    COURIC: You did tell her about the...
    Mr. RAMSEY: Yes.
    COURIC: ...open window?
    Mr. RAMSEY: I did.
    COURIC: And what did she say?
    Mr. RAMSEY: I don't recall that she said anything.
    Today Show, March 20, 2000

    KING: In the book, you write about the suitcase and the open basement window, but the police say you never told them about it.
    J. RAMSEY: That's false.
    P. RAMSEY: False.
    J. RAMSEY: I told Linda Arndt that I found the window open and I found a suitcase under the window.

    "Each window had four panes, and Fleet White, having been down there earlier, pointed out the baseball-sized hole in the upper left pane of the middle window. 'Damn it, I had to break that,' John Ramsey said, adding that it happened the previous summer when he kicked in the window to get into the house after locking himself out. Should have fixed it then, he noted, taping his forehead. The window was closed but unlatched."
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 27

    "Rick French....was reportedly still tortured by his failure to open the wine cellar door when he searched the house in those first few minutes"
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 660

    Larry King: A window. Was that window open when they investigated it?
    Lou Smit: Yes. When John Ramsey had first seen the window...
    Larry King: There we see a window. That's the window, right?
    Lou Smit: That's the window. Now, again, that picture that you see is the first photograph taken of that window after the crime scene technicians got back into the house. Now, later on, I believe that it was noted that this window may have been opened even by John Ramsey and Fleet White. But what that window did show us, when we first seen it, was that entry could have been made there.
    May 28, 2001 Larry King Live Interview with Lou Smit

    Lou Smit: "So you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?"
    John Ramsey: “Correct.”
    Lou Smit: "In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the train room, gets out, let's say, that window?”
    John Ramsey: “Uh huh.
    Lou Smit: "How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?"
    John Ramsey: "I don't know... I go down, I say, "Ooh, that door is blocked." I move the chair and went in the room."
    Lou Smit: So you couldn’t have gotten in without moving the chair?”
    John Ramsey: "Correct... I had to move the chair."
    Lou Smit: "The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as......"
    John Ramsey: "I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left."
    John Ramsey, 1998 Interview
  16. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    So what did Fleet White make of this?

  17. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    Omg, what a tangled web we weave. Every time I try to read JR's own words, I'm just flaberghasted. I mean, really? And seeing all of this put together is just stunning.
  18. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    Exactly. Reading JR's words always puts knots in my stomach. So, from his own testimony, JR put that blanket on JB? staging within staging? I'm so confused, but I'm even more sure, (and grateful), that the grand jury had him pegged just right. What a crock.
  19. midwest mama

    midwest mama New Member

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    You are a treasure trove of info when it comes to supplying sources! As Dodie says, seeing it all together is baffling and amazing all at the same time.

    Now, lets see if this sequence makes any sense to anyone:

    French goes through first. No report that he notices the broken window or a chair in front of the door of the train room. If he went into the train room, he would have had to move the chair. It's possible he (and maybe the other officers either missed the broken window or didn't include it in their report? Only very slightly, but still possible. A simple statement of "no sign of forcible entry" could have also meant they assumed the break was old, and the window closed, under the grate with webs would have supported that.

    Fleet goes next. Notices the closed, but unlatched broken window. And said he moved a suitcase around and put some glass he found on the ledge.

    John's turn. He goes down, has to move a chair to get into the train room. So, did Fleet place the chair in front of the room as he exited? It would seem so, but why?

    If Fleet moved the suitcase around, Fleet could have placed it under the window, where John said he saw it. John said the window was standing open about an inch. If Fleet noticed it was unlatched, and the train room door had then been closed and reopened again by John, is it possible there could have been enough of a suction created to pull the window open a bit, as John said he found it? Then he could have closed and latched the window, as it was when he and Fleet went back in together later.

    First John claimed this trip of his to be early, but from the above timeline, the time would have had to be between 6:45 (after Fleet got done) or so and 7, since he was on hand for officer arrivals and again at 7 when going up to Burke with Fleet. Here is where I think this is a lie. I do not think John was down there after the police arrived, until he slipped away from Arndt's watch after the 10 am deadline passed.

    Now, let's think about John saying he had 'found' JB, and didn't want Patsy to see her that way, so he went up near the TV room, got a blanket and covered JB. If this is at the same time he also went into the train room (had to move the chair - during his trip when missing from Arndt), it's possible he bolted back up and grabbed the blanket from near the TV room without anyone seeing him, hustled back downstairs with it, to provide extra coverage of JB's body. There WAS an additional blanket found (plaid, IIRC) in the WC, other than the white one JB was wrapped in.

    Fleet said when he went down at 6:30, he looked into the WC and saw nothing. Notice, John does not say where he 'found' JB, just before he got the blanket that he placed over her to keep Patsy from seeing her. It has been discussed many times that her livor pattern said she would have had to be in the same position, but that it was possible she could have been moved a short distance by pulling her. Since she was wrapped in the white blanket, and it was under her, (fibers were collected from it later), wouldn't it be possible she could have been pulled out of the deep corner to the left of the door inside the WC by tugging on an edge of that white blanket, OR even by pulling that cord that was between her wrists, or worse yet, the 'stick' handle? She might have even been lying on the piece of sheet metal that was taken into evidence later by the police, which would have acted as 'sled' in moving her. The blanket taken from near the TV room could have then been placed over her body (or also used while pulling her), and tossed aside when John went down later with Fleet and really "found" her. She could have been moved from the corner of the WC during this visit after 10 am, to where she was later "found" with Fleet after 1 pm.

    This would have coincided with what JR told Long and JAR on the way to Fernies later, which he said was about 11 am. If JR would have had to pin JB's death on anyone as "an inside job", he would have wanted to establish that he "found" her at that time, which might have explained why they didn't get the ransom call they were expecting. And would also have made his family believe the reason he didn't bring her up then was because he was going to wait for the call that should then come the next day, so he could go ahead with the ransom note instructions (except the 'kidnappers' would have killed JB) and he would be the hero to his family that got Patsy or Burke off the hook, if necessary.

    Did John go down after 10 am, just to make sure the broken window could get noticed later by someone to be considered a possible point of entry/exit? Even though he said he would not have put the suitcase in that room when he took it to the basement, I think he wanted that suitcase placed so it looked like help for an exit. I believe he lied in saying he put that suitcase elsewhere, and instead had taken it specifically, from where he had found it earlier, to that room to be used just as it was. That is when he finalized the 'staged intruder kidnapper' theory that was originally intended to be used.

    He said he told Arndt about the window when he came up then. He hoped he'd plant the kidnapper entry/exit point, which occurred to him because he had gone back down to check for that, and then saw the window he broke last summer. But Arndt wasn't buying it. Her experience had already raised her hackles about JR. He was reported to have been acting very disturbed from that time on. Because she didn't react to his obvious lie?

    The FBI had told the BPD investigators to look at the parents, and expect to find the body. Arndt dropped the bomb after the call did not come in when she told John to take someone and search again. John HAD to find JB this time, because either Fernie or White would have insisted they check the WC again in a team search. Fernie went off by himself upstairs, so JR had luck on his side to take Fleet immediately to the train room, where he again tried to establish the kidnapper entry/exit by pointing out the window situation to Fleet. Even to the point of looking with Fleet for fresh glass shards. Then, he knew he'd have to get into the WC and 'find' her, so he could contaminate the scene, her clothing and body, since it would now be impossible to wait things out and remove her from the house at a later time.

    I think Patsy told the truth when she said her voice was kinda cracking and she remembered screaming for John, remembered him screaming as he came from the basement. I think she did hear him scream, possibly back at her, as he bolted out of the basement earlier that morning after first being with JonBenet in the WC. If the train room window was broken that morning and the glass cleaned up, it was before JR was in the WC with JB.

    At this point, we still don't know who was the one most likely to have hidden JB in the far corner of the WC.
  20. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    IMO John went down to the basement twice...once before LE arrived and again after French and White went down as well...
  21. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    at bold
    it's either French is totally incompetent for not noticing a broken OPEN window (possible forced entry) OR the window wasn't broken or it was broken and closed.

    I really would like to know what he wrote in his report about his trip to the basement...

    IMO this is one of the huge reasons why the cops suspected the parents....their reports from that morning contradicted so many things the parents claimed....

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