Lies point us to the truth #2

[proust20]

Wasn't PR's jacket supposedly the same as a friend's (Mrs. White?)? Fashionista Patsy caught without cashmere! lol You can take the girl out of Burlesque...

As for the weak, confused 'break-in' scenario: John's different versions have him breaking the basement window months before Christmas. Since the tales vary significantly, it is best to assume that they both are lies. What is the purpose of doing this? It would have made more sense to not know anything about the broken window. Or it happened recently, but he didn't report it even though he was scared? Or it was during the party on the 23rd? It escapes me how dreaming up this storyline about the past assists the intruder FF fantasy. Of course, he couldn't say that it had just occurred because there was only a sliver of glass when JR & FW inspected the window area. No blood nor hairs. Whether or not JR shut the window is muddled. An intruder breaking in the window would have to accurately replace the grate above so that it appeared not to have been moved. This would be more important if the intruder(s) planned on exiting the house by a means other then back up and out the basement window. And manage all this without damaging the spider web. The intruder(s) left no footprints around the grate nor anywhere else. There aren't any other signs of a break-in. Also, after breaking in, the intruder(s) would be descending a few feet into a dark room. - Now hurry upstairs to the kitchen and practice the RN with some nice pineapple.

Of course the security system wasn't activated. It was too complicated for High Tech exec JR to operate. At first, the Rs wanted LE to think that the scratches on the exterior door were fresh; but, a neighbor called them out on it.

Aspects of the staging that seem like mistakes e.g. the size 12s could be intentional? Needless to say, there's a very cunning mind behind the curtain.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

If any of the fiber evidence interests me, it's the ones they can't match to anything in the house.
I seem to recall a beaver hair, or something along those lines.

Eddie99,
I recall watching TV News footage of the Ramsey’s leaving their house that day. I know her fur coat was full length. She carried a purse on the crook of her arm. She had on boots. They looked leather but the tops could have been beaver. Reminds me that BR never had hi-tech boots.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Wasn't PR's jacket supposedly the same as a friend's (Mrs. White?)? Fashionista Patsy caught without cashmere!

It wasn’t the exact same. She went to a store I believe it was in Denver to buy one but they no longer carried Pricilla’s jacket. She bought one that was similar. Sort of the same. I don’t know if they tested PW jacket or not. If not; why not?

As for the weak, confused 'break-in' scenario: John's different versions have him breaking the basement window months before Christmas. Since the tales vary significantly, it is best to assume that they both are lies. What is the purpose of doing this? It would have made more sense to not know anything about the broken window. Or it happened recently, but he didn't report it even though he was scared? Or it was during the party on the 23rd? It escapes me how dreaming up this storyline about the past assists the intruder FF fantasy.

LS seemed convinced. Perhaps it came up because it was noticed and JR did not report it to the authorities that morning.

Of course, he couldn't say that it had just occurred because there was only a sliver of glass when JR & FW inspected the window area. No blood nor hairs. Whether or not JR shut the window is muddled. An intruder breaking in the window would have to accurately replace the grate above so that it appeared not to have been moved. This would be more important if the intruder(s) planned on exiting the house by a means other then back up and out the basement window. And manage all this without damaging the spider web. The intruder(s) left no footprints around the grate nor anywhere else. There aren't any other signs of a break-in. Also, after breaking in, the intruder(s)2eaq` would be descending a few feet into a dark room. - Now hurry upstairs to the kitchen and practice the RN with some nice pineapple.

You are a funny one. It was to cold outside for a spider to have spun a web that night. Besides all those jagged little edges of glass shards in the windowsil. The intruders were more then likely running around the house with a big whole in the rear end of their pants.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

According to the FBI:
When fibers that match the clothing fibers of the suspect are found on the clothing of a victim, two conclusions may be drawn: The fibers originated from the suspect, or the fibers originated from another fabric source that not only was composed of fibers of the exact type and color, but was also in a position to contribute those fibers through primary or secondary contact. The likelihood of encountering identical fibers from the environment of a homicide victim (i.e., from his or her residence or friends) is extremely remote. How do we know for sure the jacket PR turned over a year and a half later to BPD was the real one she walked out of that house on the day after Christmas 96? Was it the living room blanket or the white one she deposited her fiber evidence on? Probably both.



Thank you for the following link. I must have overlooked the mention of JR fibers found on JB thighs. Underpants is what I got.
Atlanta 2000 John Ramsey Interview, Excerpt

To answer the size 12 question previously, who knows? Since JB underpants were 6 times to big for her and the long John’s were what size? JB had been wiped clean by dark blue cotton fibers. They say (never sourced). Truly? It’s like the FBI in this case. Exit to the left. So, who really knows what the fiber evidence, dna, lies in those vaults? Will those doors ever truly be opened? Perhaps Kolar will be free to discuss the blue fibers as well as FW?

How do we know for sure the jacket PR turned over a year and a half later to BPD was the real one she walked out of that house on the day after Christmas 96?

Because the fibers match those found at the crime-scene. If it was a swap how would she know which make of fibers to go for?

Yes. both blankets, same with JR, except he has clean clothes on, so Patsy has a defense in front of a jury, i.e. both JR and PR knew full well what they were doing!

I always laugh when I read how Disgusted JR said he felt when told his fibers were found on JonBenet's thighs, crotch, genitals, whatever.

What are his fibers doing down there at a crime-scene?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Wasn't PR's jacket supposedly the same as a friend's (Mrs. White?)? Fashionista Patsy caught without cashmere! lol You can take the girl out of Burlesque...

As for the weak, confused 'break-in' scenario: John's different versions have him breaking the basement window months before Christmas. Since the tales vary significantly, it is best to assume that they both are lies. What is the purpose of doing this? It would have made more sense to not know anything about the broken window. Or it happened recently, but he didn't report it even though he was scared? Or it was during the party on the 23rd? It escapes me how dreaming up this storyline about the past assists the intruder FF fantasy. Of course, he couldn't say that it had just occurred because there was only a sliver of glass when JR & FW inspected the window area. No blood nor hairs. Whether or not JR shut the window is muddled. An intruder breaking in the window would have to accurately replace the grate above so that it appeared not to have been moved. This would be more important if the intruder(s) planned on exiting the house by a means other then back up and out the basement window. And manage all this without damaging the spider web. The intruder(s) left no footprints around the grate nor anywhere else. There aren't any other signs of a break-in. Also, after breaking in, the intruder(s) would be descending a few feet into a dark room. - Now hurry upstairs to the kitchen and practice the RN with some nice pineapple.

Of course the security system wasn't activated. It was too complicated for High Tech exec JR to operate. At first, the Rs wanted LE to think that the scratches on the exterior door were fresh; but, a neighbor called them out on it.

Aspects of the staging that seem like mistakes e.g. the size 12s could be intentional? Needless to say, there's a very cunning mind behind the curtain.

proust20,
So says Patsy about PW's jacket, obviously just a story with no substance.

JR saying he broke the window is simply a cover story, nothing more. He is taking a bullet for another family member.

Either way you have chronic, familial sexual abuse and murder being undertaken in the basement or it was all relocated from somewhere upstairs?

The case is RDI all day long.

.

 

[danablue1]

proust20,
So says Patsy about PW's jacket, obviously just a story with no substance.

JR saying he broke the window is simply a cover story, nothing more. He is taking a bullet for another family member.

Either way you have chronic, familial sexual abuse and murder being undertaken in the basement or it was all relocated from somewhere upstairs?

The case is RDI all day long.

.

YES!

 

[Chelly]

proust20,
This is usually the case. If JR were JonBenet's killer, how would we explain Patsy's fibers embedded into the knotting of the ligature?

Did Patsy manufacture the ligature, put it in place, but leave it to JR to murder JonBenet by pulling the ligature tight?

The other unknown is if JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar after Fleet White looked into the wine-cellar and saw nothing unusual?

I'd love Fleet White to do a sit-down, tell-all interview. I reckon he knows who killed JonBenet.

I have a neat idea of bringing a virtual Columbo back to star in another episode where, as per normal, In the opening scene you see JonBenet being ligature asphyxiated and then placed in the wine-cellar, with the rest of the episode taken up with what really took place?

.

Indeed, Fleet White is a fountain of knowledge about JBR's killing. But why has he kept silent for all these years? Did he make a promise to one or all of the R's?

 

[UKGuy]

YES!

danablue1,
Well this is what it looks like to me. I've always thought the basement was staged but the question is by who?

Also I wonder to what extent was JonBenet being abused, was it like normalized, with pageant trips, new clothes, etc?

JonBenet and Patsy were out on shopping sessions spending regular.

Then something happened on Christmas Night, so devastating, that JonBenet had to be silenced, and it was all staged as a Abduction Scenario?

Do you behave like that if it was a One Off incident, why not seek medical assistance for JonBenet?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Indeed, Fleet White is a fountain of knowledge about JBR's killing. But why has he kept silent for all these years? Did he make a promise to one or all of the R's?

Chelly,
How about a promise to BPD? His lengthy interview has never been released for public consumption.

BPD might have informed Fleet White about Colorado's Child Protection Statutes, so he has gone silent?

I reckon Fleet White knows who killed JonBenet. He was the only person, other than one of the R's to see the crime-scene in the raw, he even returned for another look, what drew him back?

He obviously noticed something did not add up, so had another look?

He was the only person to see Burke Ramsey in his bedroom engaging in whatever his routine was?

He made up Burke Ramsey's bed so knows what pajamas Burke Ramsey was wearing the next morning.

I'd love to hear his account of looking into the wine-cellar and explain how he missed JonBenet, or was she never there?

.

 

[Eddie99]

Hey Rain,

I just searched every thing I could think of to see if they had photos of the family (leavin) that morning - I couldn't find anything. Not even a still photo.

I don't think the media was there till later that afternoon.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Hey Rain,

I just searched every thing I could think of to see if they had photos of the family (leavin) that morning - I couldn't find anything. Not even a still photo.

I don't think the media was there till later that afternoon.

Eddie99,

As with most information on this case the photos of them leaving their home on 12/26/96 have possibly been eradicated. I am going off of recall. PR clothing struck me as very odd. They also showed JR getting in the car with JAR and Melinda. How was it they were allowed to leave freely? Why was PR bundled up in her full length fur coat and with a purse? I don’t know, if my child had been found murdered in my home the last thing I would be thinking about is my purse.

 

[proust20]

Well OK - but I still don't understand JR lying about the broken window. What or whom does this shield? I'll just have to accept the illogic of it. On the other hand, a Team R tactic is to muddy the waters with various, updated tales. An advantage of this is not having to remember what you've said previously.

In fact, John was the only one to view the final tableau in the WC. He destroyed the CS immediately. The need for events to enfold as a scenario of Daddy to the Rescue does give rise to the possibility of JonBenet being moved into the WC, in order for the dramatics to play out a la Ramsey.

Since the fibers come from PR's jacket, and not blouse nor nightclothes, it is another indication that she didn't go to bed after the White's party. It doesn't make sense for PR to get her fibers entangled in the ligature (TOD 1-2am), then undress for bed, only to put back on the same clothes again for BPD arrival.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Indeed, Fleet White is a fountain of knowledge about JBR's killing. But why has he kept silent for all these years? Did he make a promise to one or all of the R's?

Chelly,

Go to YouTube and type in this:

Fleet White & Wife Priscilla on Murder of JonBenet Ramsey​

 

[Rain on my Parade]

The need for events to enfold as a scenario of Daddy to the Rescue does give rise to the possibility of JonBenet being moved into the WC, in order for the dramatics to play out a la Ramsey.

proust20,

I am left wondering if this is how things played out why JB has abrasions on her back and legs. I would attribute this to being pulled across the WC floor. How else did she gets these scrape? Would be call them carpet burns? If so, who was dragging her?

Since the fibers come from PR's jacket, and not blouse nor nightclothes, it is another indication that she didn't go to bed after the White's party. It doesn't make sense for PR to get her fibers entangled in the ligature (TOD 1-2am), then undress for bed, only to put back on the same clothes again for BPD arrival.

IMOO, PR never changed out of her cloths Christmas night. My big question is why weren’t they taken to the police station and their clothing removed for processing. Why the special treatment? Also, I am still not convinced it is sweater fibers. They didn’t take the scarf on the wet bar; at least not to our knowledge. If not, why not? And why request her sweater? Did they know then, that it was the one she wore to the White’s party?

 

[Eddie99]

Eddie99,

As with most information on this case the photos of them leaving their home on 12/26/96 have possibly been eradicated. I am going off of recall. PR clothing struck me as very odd. They also showed JR getting in the car with JAR and Melinda. How was it they were allowed to leave freely? Why was PR bundled up in her full length fur coat and with a purse? I don’t know, if my child had been found murdered in my home the last thing I would be thinking about is my purse.

They had to leave.
If there were news there that day - it would be online.

What lie about the window. He told them it could be broken from when he broke it months before?

Last point - the media had a field day with PR. If there was a photo of her in a fur coat, full length no less. It would still be all over the web. Fur coats are a visual pejorative. (They went nuts over upper crust parents with a dead kid that was in beauty/talent shows. Which boggles my mind because I've seen cheerleader competitions. They gotta be just as bad, or worse.

 

[Eddie99]

Probst.

Why would he stage her. Just to undo the staging?

Even if he did do all of this ..... he could have NEVER in a million years figure the police wouldn't find her on their search. It's unfathomable. There is no way that could be part of any plan .

 

[Rain on my Parade]

They had to leave.
If there were news there that day - it would be online.

Eddie99,

It was broadcast on a major news channel. I’m not making this up. I saw it with my own eyes. I wouldn’t profess it to be if it was not.

What lie about the window. He told them it could be broken from when he broke it months before?

Did I say JR lied? If he did indeed lie, perhaps it was to cover for the soft ball bat found outside and an entrance into the home. JR did say he checked the doors before he retired that night.
My question is: If it were intruders that did it; then why didn’t they take JB? Still get their ransom money out of it; from the brown paper bag/attache-denominations?

Last point - the media had a field day with PR. If there was a photo of her in a fur coat, full length no less. It would still be all over the web. Fur coats are a visual pejorative. (They went nuts over upper crust parents with a dead kid that was in beauty/talent shows. Which boggles my mind because I've seen cheerleader competitions. They gotta be just as bad, or worse.

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to mislead you by saying photo. It was live news coverage. It was a big deal. Again, like the OJ and SS case.

Yes, fur coats were a status symbol back in the day.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

If there were news there that day - it would be online.

Eddie99,

I found some news coverage; although it is new. We would be hard pressed to find much from 1996 in this case. It’s been covered up since day one. Some wonder why JR wants this case solved. I wonder what dna hasn’t been tested. If not; why not? After all, we do want to get to the bottom of this; don’t we?

I left news links under the Media Links Only thread. If I find the others worth note; I will post them as well.

 

[proust20]

John told at least two different versions of his breaking the basement window. In one, he did it alone in his underwear on a summer night, when the family was away in MI. In another, Burke witnessed him doing it. Both cannot be the truth.

BR could not have managed to get an immobile JonBenet down the stairs to the basement without significant bruising. Although, she could have been dragged along in the basement to the WC. The parents would have no need to. The redressing must be included somewhere.

John only found the body after BPD arrived. He himself had searched the basement (twice?) without finding her. Immediately destroying the CS in the WC is in keeping with the style of this crime. There are many erased items. The deadline for the morning phone call from S.B.T.C came and went without reaction from the terrorized Mom and Dad. How important was finding JB? The Rs didn't turn the house upside down before the 911. Patsy said she only glanced at the RN. They'd already broken its terms. Did they not fear that JB would be beheaded? The Rs benefited from good legal advice from the very outset.

After carrying up the body, John was thinking of catching a flight out of state, rather than pursuing the killer(s). If he wrote the RN, the issue of when the body were meant to be found gains a new slant.

 

[Eddie99]

I belive he had to break that window more than once. Both times he had been traveling and got picked up from home (cab). When he got home, and realized he didn't have keys, he got in through that window. I don't recall ever reading about BR being there.

Regardless, what difference does that make?

I think NOT telling the police he broke the window would be much more nefarious.

As far as the call not coming. No one knew if the note meant 10am that day, or the next day. The note said get rest, and the money. That's almost impossible to do by 10am that same morning. Which lends itself to mean the following day (I think Friday)

I tried to imagine myself waking up to find one of my kids gone, with the same parameters.
Which is difficult, because kids nowadays have phones and are constantly connected to friends and family. Jbr was born before all this tech.

Considering they were at party with other children the night before. I would probably have started there. "Hey, where are your kids"? Did anything go on after the party? Was this some kind of prank. (I want to add that by 1996 kidnappings for purposes of ransom were unheard of, probably because they never work)

Then I tried to consider what I would say on a 911 - I can honestly say, I have no idea what i would say, or where I would begin. I think if I were there, I would have thought this was some kind of prank. I think my thoughts would have turned to any older children at that party, or in their sphere. (One thing I keep forgetting to mention about the note: when I first read it (years later) my first thought was that it sounded like someone trying to imitate the guy from silence of the lambs. When I read it, I can hear that voice in my head. I don't normally "hear" things I read. That's not how my mind works. But with this thing, every time I read it, that's what I "feel" for lack of a better way to put it.

As far as getting the family out of there. I think I would have done the same. John did work for a company with connections to national defense. Althogh his division didn't seem to be as sensitive as other Lockheed groups, it still has to be factored in somehow. If I had a second home, that's precisely what I'd have done. I don't think I could have ever walked into that house again. I don't think they ever did.

What I keep coming back to is this. If one of the parents did this, in a fit of rage and they decided to lie about it. It would make 1000xs more sense to say this was an accident. On a personal note, I have 4 kids. We've had our share of bumps bruises and broken bones. Point being, there are horrific things that can and do happen at home. In our social sphere we have heard of kids drowning, chemical burns, dog mailings, lawn mower accidents, a dresser falling over and killing a young girl. Terrible things happen.

I realize JR comes off as odd. But I think that's just the personality traits that a lot of successful businessmen exibit.

Aa far as PR. There is a photo of her and jbr on Christmas morning. She has her hand over jbrs arm, in a kind of half hug, and their heads are ear to ear. Someone on here said "you can see pr squeezing her arm, in a death grip, and you can tell JBR is in pain" . Which is just preposterous. Utterly preposterous. We have a photo of my wife and daughter that is very similar to the one I'm referring to.

But. If that is ones perspective that is exactly how they are going to interpret things.

My last point on this long post -

Everything that throws shade on the Rs is directly resulting from the initial BPD response. They Screwed up. It happens. They are human.

But the bigger mistake here in my opinion was BPD leadership not handing over the case to another authority like the state police or another agency.

When careers, egos, reputations are on the line and you have issues from the start. You need to get your people out of the equation. For JBR, for the Ramsey's, for the officers, and leadership group. Said another way - you need to stop the bleeding. "Hey, some things went awry from the beginning, and we need to remove ourselves from the situation. Here are all of our records, here's a list of personnel that was on duty. They will be available to answer any questions".

But that's not what happened. And the media ran hog wild with this thing. Which obviously effected this case, in a very negative way.
Which drove even more bad decisions. Then you had public servants looking to cash in one this, for personal gain. It's just horrible how this went down.